I used to post to another WW ( a different site, long long ago) who's husband came after her with his golf clubs during his angry rages..... are you in any sort of physical danger from your H?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

"because the anger you see, is actually his broken heart screaming!"

Wowww,,powerful statement Pep,,and, sadly, so very true... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'd just like to state that your H has no right to demand that you tell the OM's wife about the A.

First of all....they have nothing to do with YOUR Recovery.
Second....in order to forgive....you have to be willing to forgive, and your H doesn't seem to be ready for that yet. He's being selfish.

Maybe he needs to be reminded that in order to speak with the OM's W that you may have to speak with the OM....I'm sure he doesn't want that.

Sometimes it doesn't matter what the WS does...the BS wants more.....to help them forgive and move on. Most of it doesn't work.....some of it does.

You need to figure out what YOU can live with.....whether your a BS or a WS...there is only so much you can do to prove that you will be faithfull...and I think your H is expecting too much and dwelling too much wich is keeping him from moving on.

I remember telling my H that I NEEDED him to do this or that in order for me to get over his A. Not one of those things made me feel better. The only thing that made me feel better were things that I had to work on within myself to help me get over it.

I almost drove my H over the edge before I realized what I was doing....to him and to myself.

This is Orchid's H again. Don't anyone get their hopes up that I'll be a regular here, but I just decided check other's comments here on this.

Thanks for the invite, Pep, but I don't intend to show up here very often. Once again, though you may be correct in substance, I completely disagree that her BS should be condoned for fits of rage, which is what I hear you saying. Sure, he is expected to be angry, & you gave a very accurate decription of why he would be so angry, but that does not give him the right to be abusive in return. Anger should not equal abuse, & that appears to be what is happening to Becca now. He seems to be bent on retaliation, to his wife & to the other man & his wife. If he can't control his temper, SHE may be the one to have to leave to protect herself.

Also, it's NEVER too much to ask forgiveness. If Becca is genuinely repentant & trying to work on making things right again, he needs to do his part to help. I can guarantee this, had Orchid acted like Becca's H, I would be long gone. It was only because she showed genuine forgiveness, understanding, patience, & love that helped me stay where I belong. Not everyone should be expected to be like Orchid, but he can do MUCH better. He has no right to make her pay almost daily through beratement & fits of anger, nor should that behavior even be tolerated just because you are "guilty".

Miss Priss had some good things to say which I agree on totally.

Becca, I have a question for you. Was he verbally abusive at all before this happened, or is it just a result of the affair? It makes a difference.

Oh .... Mr. O ~~~~~

Why don't you stay and post more? Yours is a welcome voice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

pep--

First let me say that I am sorry for this threadjack; but I must say something to pep.
WOW! Did you just read my mind!! What you wrote puts into words exactly how I feel at times.Thankfully, Those times are getting further apart. Although, I have rarely acted with rage, but with tears instead. I am printing this off, just so my husband can see that I'm not the only one. I'm not "holding" onto my grief. It's just there, and I'm doing the best I can.
Thanks pep. Wish you were my husbands IC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

becca--be patient. He is hurting, and he needs to see that you are for real this time. Are you willing to 'do anything"?? As long as you are safe, you need to stay and work hard at this thing called recovery. God Bless
tsc

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: tsc ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"Sometimes we have good days but they are so few and far between. I just want him to talk to me without the anger. It hurts so much."

Who says his anger is not "good"? I think it is, indeed a "good thing" to work his way through his anger. Not being angry would not be natural.

If he were able to talk to you without the anger ... what would he be saying? In your mind, what does his anger mean?

Allow me to offer an opinion of what his anger means ....

It means he "sees" in his mind, mental videos of you and the OM making love, kissing, laughing, teasing, moaning, making juicy sounds between your bodies .... He "sees" you with your legs open, allowing a man who is a stranger to him enter your body with his body .... and you, with your eyes closed love OM doing it.

Your H cannot kiss you without "seeing" you kiss the OM.

He cannot make love to you without "seeing" you making love to the OM.

Why is he angry? Because he loves you. He wants to be your loving husband ... but the mental images are too raw, too graphic, and sooo painful he is consumed by those ugly painful thoughts.

Try this out yourself. Close your eyes, and picture your H making passionate love to another woman. Your H is enjoying her breasts, her lips, her butt, her smells, her sounds.

The difference is, when you open your eyes, the image disappears. The image does not disappear when your H opens his eyes, his images of you with OM are pretty much with him 24/7.

When he's trying to fall asleep is the worst.

When you say .... "It hurts so much." I believe you. Compare your H's agony to yours. Care to trade places with him? Care to wonder if the OP was better than you in bed? Care to wonder if this was the first affair .... or maybe there were more you don't know about? Care to wonder how it feels to have the one person you love look you in the eye and lie to you? And then lie to you some more? And you don't know when the person you love is telling the truth or manipulating you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

And you speak about "forgiving" already? You make a judgement about him not being able to forgive ???? Sweetie, your H is just trying to survive his agony. He is a minute to minute basket case. And you want to be forgiven?

No, you want his pain to stop.... because seeing him in pain hurts.

This takes years.

Do not ask for or expect to be forgiven until he feels like he can take breaths that dont burn with painful agony.

You're asking too much. Forgiving is a ways away.

Besides, most WS have more problems forgiving themselves. Why don't you take your H's hand, and just "be there" when he is angry ... because the anger you see, is actually his broken heart screaming!

Pep</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband:

I suggest you should spend some time at a battered women's shelter and see what sitting there and taking it actually does for a woman. I have worked with battered women. The story I heard the most was “this is the first time he hit me . . . all he ever did before this was yell.” Pepper, have you ever seen a woman that has been “punished” with a baseball bat? What kind of drugs are you on to suggest that this woman accept verbal abuse as her punishment for her transgression?

Becca, do not live in this situation. Leave and protect yourself. Get yourself somewhere safe and then only discuss thing with your husband in public places. Your husband has a right to his anger, but he has no right to daily verbal assaults and third-grader tirades. You have made a terrible error in your marriage. Maybe your marriage can’t be fixed, I don’t know. You do not have to expose yourself to someone who is out of control.

Violent words easily turn to violent physical actions. Take care of yourself.

Becca .... are you being battered or abused? If you are, leave your marriage. If you're not sure, ask your physician for a referral, to find out.

Becca .... where in your posts have you talked about your husband's hurt? Do you see his hurt, or do you only see his anger?

HereAndNow .... I have been a nurse for more than 23 years. Thanks for being concerned about battered women. I assure you, I have worked with battered women. I do not believe Becca is being either battered or abused. I think Becca is unaware of her husband's hurt. She has not mentioned it once.

I agree with your position about battered women (or battered men for that matter) ... however, I don't think it applies here ... and of course, I could be wrong from the get go .... or not.

Men who raise their voices at their spouses are often told they are being abusive .... women who raise their voices at their spouses are told they are being assertive and strong and standing up for themselves. There can be a double standard.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS ... "What kind of drugs are you on?" ..... is mean ... are you abusing me verbally by calling me names and insulting me?

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Becca - You are not a horrible person. You made a horrible choice by having an A. You are worthy of forgiveness from God and from yourself. Your H if he chooses, will forgive when it's time.

Take care of yourself. No matter how much you've screwed up you are still a worthy human being. I believe you sound remorseful and the turmoil your M is in right now will eventually get better.

Disrespectful judgements will do nothing to help heal your M. Your H may continue to lash out and I wouldn't suggest that you "take" being screamed at. It might be best to remove yourself from the situation if things get too heated. Your H will have to learn to channel his emotions into something other than anger if he wants to stay in this M.

Read about Lovebusters, POJA, Radical Honesty, all that you can on this site. It will provide you with helpful tools in this struggle you now have.

I am a FWS who confessed my A to my H almost a year ago. It's been no bed of roses but our M is actually better now than it was for years before. Take care of yourself and post again when you can.

Becca I agree that verbal abuse has no place in reconciliation.

1. It does not increase your love for your H. It actually destroys it.

2. By subjecting yourself to it for a long period of time, you are allowing him to not deal in overcoming his bitterness and resentment which can ultimately harm him irrevocably.

3. Verbal abuse does not create a safe environment in the marriage, where issues can be talked about without fear of retaliation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>PS ... "What kind of drugs are you on?" ..... is mean ... are you abusing me verbally by calling me names and insulting me?

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No Pep, just an expression. I could of said "are you high" or "what were you thinking" or "I couldn’t disagree any more strongly.” I didn’t mean to insult you and if you took that from my response, then I apologize. I don’t like to see people suffer from this type of treatment and when I hear about it, it gets my back up.

Becca said “My H has such a horrible temper and I don't know what to do when he screams and yells.” To me this is verbal abuse. Period. Maybe you have a different/higher tolerance for the line where screaming and yelling becomes abusive. I have a very low tolerance for this behavior. Rational people do not yell and scream at others. Becca said she is afraid of her husband when he is yelling and screaming. I’m sure her husband can tell how his outbursts are affecting his wife, yet he continues the behavior. It is abuse. Run away Becca and find a safe place. Don’t wait until he throws you through a wall. God I hope you don’t have kids at home.

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Hereandnow ]</small>

could some one please explain to me how the presumption of abuse now exists regarding this marriage? because a BS hurt to the bone screams his pain...this has become abuse?! because he may speak to the his wasywatd partner in a less then civil manner...this now consitutes abuse?

has becca claimed that her H has been behaving in an irrational manner causing her to fear for herself? because if she has i missed that particular post.

sorry to you all but anger expressed by some yelling and screaming does not neccassarily consitute abuse...however, in mu humble opinion cheating sure does!

coach

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by coach3530:
<strong>could some one please explain to me how the presumption of abuse now exists regarding this marriage? because a BS hurt to the bone screams his pain...this has become abuse?! because he may speak to the his wasywatd partner in a less then civil manner...this now consitutes abuse?

has becca claimed that her H has been behaving in an irrational manner causing her to fear for herself? because if she has i missed that particular post.

sorry to you all but anger expressed by some yelling and screaming does not neccassarily consitute abuse...however, in mu humble opinion cheating sure does!

coach</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well here you go coach. Taken from an article by Patricia Evans.

" . . .If there isn’t a feeling of goodwill and understanding between two people in their relationship, if one is hurting and feeling constantly put down by actual comments, for instance, “You can’t do anything right,” You aren’t listening,” or is frequently yelled at, then that person is probably in a verbally abusive relationship."

I think this paragraph describes the situation, no?

Full Text @ http://www.verbalabuse.com/3.shtml

If there isn’t a feeling of goodwill and understanding between two people in their relationship, if one is hurting and feeling constantly put down by actual comments, for instance, “You can’t do anything right,” You aren’t listening,” or is frequently yelled at, then that person is probably in a verbally abusive relationship."

It might, and it might not. He could be a man who is yelling because he is hurting because he was cheated on, or he could be a man who yells all the time anyway and then may even get physical. We don't know until Becca posts and tells us- right now some people are just assuming either extreme.

I see we have leapt off into women-are-poor-victims la-la land. sigh...... Common sense dictates that there is quite a WIDE canyon between verbal abuse and a natural ANGRY reaction to the cruelest betrayal a spouse can commit.

OF COURSE, her BS is angry about it. He would be nuts if he weren't. Of course he rants about it. It is looney to imply that his reaction is "verbal abuse" and more than a little twisted to suggest that a spouse should just SHUT UP and take it after being subjected to the cruelty of adultery lest he be accused of "verbal abuse." What a double stab in the back.

I get really ill when I see this frothing eagerness to portray women as victims. There really is no empowerment in victimization and it only serves to make women look stupid, weak and unaccountable for their actions.

Truly, we are not all [censored] weaklings who can't face the inevitable consequences when we behave badly. Or are we "victims" when we have to face the music like big girls and boys? sniffle, sniffle <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> No wonder the fight for equality has been so tough with that kind of demeaning mentality afoot.

The fact is that Becca's spouse is the victim here. He is a victim of her betrayal. Let's not lose sight of that and go off into psychobabble la-la land.

Sorry folks but if we subscribe to the Marriage Builders principles for rebuilding marriages then we must conclude that becca's H is not well served by his constant berating of her. It not only injures becca but himself as well for he could very well become forever addicted to his anger and bitterness. In the end, it is HE that has more to gain from overcoming his negative emotions, than does becca.

TMCM, I agree with you 100%, but that is not achieved by making wild allegations of "verbal abuse." People who have been deeply hurt through betrayal tend to be VERY ANGRY and castigating them for a natural reaction is double abuse, IMO. People do have a reaction when they are treated cruelly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>I see we have leapt off into women-are-poor-victims la-la land. sigh...... Common sense dictates that there is quite a WIDE canyon between verbal abuse and a natural ANGRY reaction to the cruelest betrayal a spouse can commit.

OF COURSE, her BS is angry about it. He would be nuts if he weren't. Of course he rants about it. It is looney to imply that his reaction is "verbal abuse" and more than a little twisted to suggest that a spouse should just SHUT UP and take it after being subjected to the cruelty of adultery lest he be accused of "verbal abuse." What a double stab in the back.

I get really ill when I see this frothing eagerness to portray women as victims. There really is no empowerment in victimization and it only serves to make women look stupid, weak and unaccountable for their actions.

Truly, we are not all [censored] weaklings who can't face the inevitable consequences when we behave badly. Or are we "victims" when we have to face the music like big girls and boys? sniffle, sniffle <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> No wonder the fight for equality has been so tough with that kind of demeaning mentality afoot.

The fact is that Becca's spouse is the victim here. He is a victim of her betrayal. Let's not lose sight of that and go off into psychobabble la-la land.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody:

Becca said "My H is so torn between wanting to hurt me and wanted to hurt the OM." Did you read this?

This has nothing to do with her being a victim. It does, however, have everything to do with her being alive. What is it that you disagree with? That screaming and yelling is a mature way to communicate with one's spouse? Of course her husband is mad, who wouldn't be. Do you think it is right that in his anger he scares the hell out of his wife?

I've never yelled at my wife and she has done some sh@^y things in our relationship. As shi$&Y as you can imagine. Do you think I have the right to scream and yell at her because what she did caused me pain?

Thanks for the sarcasm . . . I bet you are tons of fun.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hereandnow:
<strong>

Becca said "My H is so torn between wanting to hurt me and wanted to hurt the OM." Did you read this?

This has nothing to do with her being a victim. It does, however, have everything to do with her being alive. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On nonsense. What BS doesn't feel that way? Probably every BS here want[ed] to get back at the OP and the WS. That is nothing new. She didn't say her WS wanted to go shoot the OP, just that he wanted to "hurt" the OM. What BS doesn't feel that way?

Let's not go off the deep end with wild speculation and elevate her to special victim status just because she is a woman.