</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hereandnow:
<strong>

Becca said "My H is so torn between wanting to hurt me and wanted to hurt the OM." Did you read this?

This has nothing to do with her being a victim. It does, however, have everything to do with her being alive. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On nonsense. What BS doesn't feel that way? Probably every BS here want[ed] to get back at the OP and the WS. That is nothing new. She didn't say her WS wanted to go shoot the OP, just that he wanted to "hurt" the OM. What BS doesn't feel that way?

Let's not go off the deep end with wild speculation and elevate her to special victim status just because she is a woman.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What rot. It has nothing to do with her being a woman either . . . Do you threaten your spouse? I guess you belive that it is o.k. with you to behave that way. Well it isn't to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hereandnow:
<strong>

I've never yelled at my wife and she has done some sh@^y things in our relationship. As shi$&Y as you can imagine. Do you think I have the right to scream and yell at her because what she did caused me pain?

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, good for you. However, just because you don't yell at your wife doesn't mean that everyone who DOES is committing "verbal abuse." Some folks are yellers and some are not.

We weak little, pitiful gals [aka victims who fall apart when yelled at] have been known to cut loose with some pretty powerful yelling ourselves. Hopefully, you aren't suggesting yelling is inherently abusive, but somehow I suspect that is exactly what you are saying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What rot. It has nothing to do with her being a woman either . . . Do you threaten your spouse? I guess you belive that it is o.k. with you to behave that way. Well it isn't to me.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, but this is not a "threat":

"My H is so torn between wanting to hurt me and wanted to hurt the OM."

Let's not exaggerate what is happening here; it helps noone to try and create drama where none exists.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What rot. It has nothing to do with her being a woman either . . . Do you threaten your spouse? I guess you belive that it is o.k. with you to behave that way. Well it isn't to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, but this is not a "threat":

"My H is so torn between wanting to hurt me and wanted to hurt the OM."

Let's not exaggerate what is happening here; it helps noone to try and create drama where none exists.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And it helps no one to minimize the drama that does exist.

I am sure that things are dramatic and emotional enough right now in Becca's household without adding to the drama by mischaracterizing her comments. The absence of overdramatization is certainly not "minimization."

This statement is just not worthy of all this high-drama, nor does it constitute a "threat":

"My H is so torn between wanting to hurt me and wanted to hurt the OM."

Becca seems like a bright woman, I am sure she is perfectly capable of handling herself if posed with a real "threat."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>I am sure that things are dramatic and emotional enough right now in Becca's household without adding to the drama by mischaracterizing her comments. The absence of overdramatization is certainly not "minimization."

This statement is just not worthy of all this high-drama, nor does it constitute a "threat":

"My H is so torn between wanting to hurt me and wanted to hurt the OM."

Becca seems like a bright woman, I am sure she is perfectly capable of handling herself if posed with a real "threat."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever Melody. I guess you need the last word. Your turn.

whoa ok this thread really took off. Back to my original statement, of we really don't know what is going on in Becca's household until she tells us exactly what is meant by "hurting her". I had to laugh at Melody Lane though because she got fired up as I wanted to. I agreed with your rant there to a point ML <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .
However, as TMCM states, MB principles state that angry outbursts don't help anything. This is true, and should not be constantly used when trying to rebuild a marriage. It just doesn't work. On the other hand, it isn't realistic to think that no angry outburst will be had once a spouse finds out their loved one, the one who was supposed to be by them for life, love honor and cherish them, has betrayed them in the worst possible way. I know I was all over the place on D-day. I screamed, cried, asked why 1000x, threw up, considered suicide or murder (only for brief moments), I was literally out of my head. It was like a nightmare replaying over and over. This could not be happening. Not to me. The problem I have with MB is that BS's go into a fog too when this is found out. Life as we know it is over. So it is unfair IMVVVVHO to expect us to always act like the grownups when the WS is gallavanting around. Becca, you don't sound like you are doing this, so don't take that personally, but my point is, the BS's are going to screw up too when faced with such an ENORMOUS LOSS. I know I did. But the difference is, my sanity came back. I didn't stay angry. Becca, please come back and tell us exactly how your husband shows his anger- this could be a case of an angry spouse who has been betrayed, or a spouse who is constantly angry- I think we are jumping the gun without knowing this info.

Thanks for the sarcasm . . . I bet you are tons of fun.

Wow, and now let's vote. Is this a disrespectful judgment?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
(my vote would be yes- ok everyone your turn)

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Becca,

Without emotion and exaggeration (not saying you were, I just know how easy it is for many of us), how would you describe the interaction between you and your H?

re: While in the fog (about where U 2 are now) yet appearing t/b in recovery (or at least that is what some called it because he confessed and moved back home), my WS used to get quite angry at me. I was to blame for his A, moving out, lack of funds, anger, etc. .

In reality, I was just trying to survive. Was I ever angry? Yes, lots of times. Did my anger put bad thoughts in my head? Yes, lots of times. Were they ever said to the WS? Yes, sometimes.

Then I became depressed. Now I was angry and depressed. Guess where that took me? I was suicidal for a while. 4 months after the WS moved back home. He was still angry with me. He claimed he was trying to fix the M but he was still seeing the OW. He still had strong feelings for her and whether he was seeing her or not, I felt it.

So now, here's some questions:

1. What will you do if and when your H shows these types of depression signs?

2. What if he gets suicidal?

3. Does your H sense that you may still have feelings for the OM? Whether you do or not, he may feel this and it may be a trigger for him.

Here are some suggestions:

A. What are his triggers? How can you both help bring reasonable closure, both together and separately?

B. Who does your H have to talk his feelings out with besides you? Who is his support group?

C. Can you both talk about the future?

D. What can you laugh about?

E. What can you cry about?

F. What are his real ENs and what are his real boundaries?

G. Are you both open to phone counseling with Steve or Jennifer.

H. If not both, can you do it individually or at least 1 of you participate.

NOTE: Don't expect too much from him too soon. When he gets angry walk away. Let him know by your actions that his angry is understood but you can not be a participant in it. When my WS got angry, I resorted to have contact via e-mail. Much easier to handle. I also talked with a lower voice and a few times even talked to the wall.

Let him know that others here know what he is going through and there is a better way to work things out for him, for you and for your M.

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
<strong>Thanks for the sarcasm . . . I bet you are tons of fun.

Wow, and now let's vote. Is this a disrespectful judgment?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
(my vote would be yes- ok everyone your turn)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yea and this wasn't disrespectful: "Truly, we are not all [censored] weaklings who can't face the inevitable consequences when we behave badly. Or are we "victims" when we have to face the music like big girls and boys? sniffle, sniffle No wonder the fight for equality has been so tough with that kind of demeaning mentality afoot."

I'm not in your clique and I disagree that yelling and screaming at one's spouse is a mature oultet of emotion. If you disagree, good for you. Are you going to teach you children that when they are mad they have the right to yell and scream? They are going to have a wonderful time in school.

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Hereandnow ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hereandnow:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
Thanks for the sarcasm . . . I bet you are tons of fun.[/b]

Wow, and now let's vote. Is this a disrespectful judgment?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
(my vote would be yes- ok everyone your turn]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yea and this wasn't disrespectful: "Truly, we are not all [censored] weaklings who can't face the inevitable consequences when we behave badly. Or are we "victims" when we have to face the music like big girls and boys? sniffle, sniffle No wonder the fight for equality has been so tough with that kind of demeaning mentality afoot."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do the remarks of others somehow make your disrespectful remarks respectful? How does that logic work exactly? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The difference, though, is that my comments weren't directed AT YOU [unless you are saying you are a weak woman]; yours were directed at me. Just as you were disrespectful to Pepper earlier today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not in your clique and I disagree that yelling and screaming at one's spouse is a mature oultet of emotion..[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one said it was necessarily a "mature" outlet, we are disagreeing with your wild assertion that it always constitutes "verbal abuse."

However, yelling can be a very healthy expression of deep hurt. Everyone has different ways of handling their grief, who are you to say what is healthy for others? Holding it in is very unhealthy.

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hereandnow:
<strong>.....I'm not in your clique and I disagree that yelling and screaming at one's spouse is a mature oultet of emotion. If you disagree, good for you. Are you going to teach you children that when they are mad they have the right to yell and scream? They are going to have a wonderful time in school.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H&N,

What this will show and teach your children is that you are human. Yes, sometimes we even parents can make mistakes and have a hard time handling emotions on hard issues.

U know what? Children understand. Is it wrong to show children that parents can make mistakes? Yes. Now the degree of the mistake is where the lesson can be learned without too much damage. A fine line to walk but one that will help the child see that being an adult is attainable. Imagine how hard it w/b on a child if they felt they had to be perfect like their parents?

I lost my temper with my H. My son saw it. I apologized. We (son and I discussed it). He said (even at age 5), that he understood and still loved me. Wow, that helped me get back on my feet.

Don't pretend t/b perfect. Just be careful not to go over the deep end.

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hereandnow:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
Thanks for the sarcasm . . . I bet you are tons of fun.[/b]

Wow, and now let's vote. Is this a disrespectful judgment?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
(my vote would be yes- ok everyone your turn]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yea and this wasn't disrespectful: "Truly, we are not all [censored] weaklings who can't face the inevitable consequences when we behave badly. Or are we "victims" when we have to face the music like big girls and boys? sniffle, sniffle No wonder the fight for equality has been so tough with that kind of demeaning mentality afoot."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do the remarks of others somehow make your disrespectful remarks respectful? How does that logic work exactly? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The difference, though, is that my comments weren't directed AT YOU [unless you are saying you are a weak woman]; yours were directed at me. Just as you were disrespectful to Pepper earlier today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not in your clique and I disagree that yelling and screaming at one's spouse is a mature oultet of emotion..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one said it was necessarily a "mature" outlet, we are disagreeing with your wild assertion that it always constitutes "verbal abuse."

However, yelling can be a very healthy expression of deep hurt. Everyone has different ways of handling their grief, who are you to say what is healthy for others? Holding it in is very unhealthy.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Disrespecful statments are just that. I just want your rants held to the same standard as mine.

Again and again you mistate my point of view. I never said that all yelling is verbal abuse. I guess you will say whatever you what to make some point that you think is important. Why don't you just create my side of the conversation and then dispute it. I'll give you my password if it will make your wild arguments easier.

And who are you to say that holding it in is very unhealthy for all people? It may be for some but not others.

Good night all. I'm going to tuck my child in to bed. I'm feeling a little angry so maybe I'll yell and scream at him just so he knows that I am human <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Really, thanks for the conversation.

Good luck in dealing with your own situations.

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Hereandnow ]</small>

I'm not in your clique and I disagree that yelling and screaming at one's spouse is a mature oultet of emotion. If you disagree, good for you. Are you going to teach you children that when they are mad they have the right to yell and scream? They are going to have a wonderful time in school.

Clique? that is funny. I post to anyone so clique sounds hilarious to me. I just disagree that anger is always bad. Or yelling is always bad. Children will hopefully learn from their parents to have emotions, but to try to contain them as best they can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Disrespecful statments are just that. I just want your rants held to the same standard as mine.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course my statement wasn't disrespectful, it was addressed to no one. Disrespectful judgements are slurs addressed to specific persons, as yours was. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again and again you mistate my point of view. I never said that all yelling is verbal abuse. I guess you will say whatever you what to make some point that you think is important. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad to see you admit it. Fortunately, you are now backpeddling from your very irresponsible words that you posted earlier suggesting to Becca that she was a "battered" woman. I don't believe I have read a more irresponsible post on this forum in all the years I have been here.

Your previous post:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suggest you should spend some time at a battered women's shelter and see what sitting there and taking it actually does for a woman. I have worked with battered women. The story I heard the most was “this is the first time he hit me . . . all he ever did before this was yell.” Pepper, have you ever seen a woman that has been “punished” with a baseball bat? What kind of drugs are you on to suggest that this woman accept verbal abuse as her punishment for her transgression?

Becca, do not live in this situation. Leave and protect yourself. Get yourself somewhere safe and then only discuss thing with your husband in public places. Your husband has a right to his anger, but he has no right to daily verbal assaults and third-grader tirades. You have made a terrible error in your marriage. Maybe your marriage can’t be fixed, I don’t know. You do not have to expose yourself to someone who is out of control.

Violent words easily turn to violent physical actions. Take care of yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

no one here is playing nice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
This is not helpful to becca, and this is HER thread.
I was an abused girlfriend. It sucks. I pray that is not the case with becca.

I also have been a very, very angry betrayed spouse. Angry to the point of slapping my husband across his face. Only once. But I did it. And I do not say that it was right.

Lets wait for becca to come back, and hopefully start a new thread. One where she can discuss what she would like too.

tsc

hey guys,
no body is saying that yelling and screaming is a posative act in healing process of a marriage. nobody is saying that it is the correct way to behave in any circumstance! but that doesn't mean that it can be characterized as abuse either.

sorry folks but sometimes the tone around here gets a bit sanctimonious (oh how i wish i could spell)and judgemental. yikes...pretty soon all and any human acts displaying actuale emotion will be construed or judged to be negative or a LB or detraimental to the healing process! In my opinion pepper expressed it and did in a way i feel very comfortible with. in fact it was almost poetic!

coach

Listen up all of you, YOU'RE ALL GROUNDED!, now go to your rooms and stay there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Well said, Coach. And I agree with you about Pepper's very eloquent words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Listen up all of you, YOU'RE ALL GROUNDED!, now go to your rooms and stay there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THIS IS VERBAL ABUSE!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />