You're right, I meant lonely. I had a long day alone yesterday because of my usual friends, 2 couples were at weddings, another had out of town guests to worry about, 2 others I couldn't get ahold of .... my loneliness wasn't for lack of effort.

Generally, my life is very busy 6 days out of 7, my job entails a great deal of take home work too, that combined with working out and running keeps me very busy, yesterday was just an off day with nothing to do or anyone to do it with, so the loneliness rose to the surface again. C'est la vie!

My loneliness, when it surfaces, stems from the fact that I miss having my H's friendly companionship (I miss the old him). I say I miss his "friendly" companionship b/c so much of his treatment towards me this past year or so has been as the selfish and evil "infidel" that hurt him, someone who is not worthy of his time, in his oh so much more important, difficult and stressful life. I really miss his genuine hugs and kisses, the kind that weren't seeking sex, but were just genuine affection. I miss having fun with him. I miss hearing him tell me how special I am and that he cares about me. I miss the companionship. I miss knowing where I was going next in my life, instead of living in limbo.

I don't miss the drama, I am so tired of the drama, I swear that's part of my reluctance to even be with him, I am not really up for any more of it, I've had my fill. But I know that if he does come to the decision that he wants to "try", that I'll be in for more drama, as that's how he lives his life too (I've noticed this now!). He is the king of "Oh woe is me, my life has to be the most difficult of anyone I know." Bull, you have your health, you have your family, you have a good job, and a wife who would love you if only you would let her. Stop blaming everyone around you and everything but you for your misery! Count your blessings and stop your whining already buddy! But he's very much stuck in victim mode it would seem. I can understand it, b/c I got stuck there for a while myself. I can't get him out of his pity-party, victimhood, or self-inflicted misery though, it's up to him. The sad part is, I don't know if he wants out. Like Dr. Phil says, there's some payoff to be had for it, or he wouldn't cling to it, but I'm not sure what that payoff is. (Does anyone have any guesses?)

Thanks for your kind concern H_P, I will think on your remarks. My "I'll take it or leave it" remark was for a few specific holier-than-thou broken records that post here, and you're certiainly not one of those!

Jen

Thanks dear Jen for replying to my comments.

I know how you feel, the loneliness and loss of our spouses and their families is very hard at times.

Take care and know that you're not alone in your pain! I'm finally seeing some progress with my exH ,but it 's very hard still at times .

By the way, didn't mean to pick apart your words by analyzing the 'bored' part, but it just hit me between the eyes.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I have tons of work to do, from my job. Not exactly exciting but it keeps me busy.

Glad to know I wasn't one you were referring to when you made the 'take it or leave it' statement. It's hard to show our warm, human sides through typed text and I never wish to come off as uncaring or know-it-all.

God bless,
HP

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite frankly, I didn't respond for days, because I simply have to say that I will not live my life in the shadow of guilt placed upon my by my H, or by guilt placed up on me by rigid Christian expectations ("no divorce, ever, it was a covenant you entered into," etc.).

In short, I have allowed my intense guilt over the fact that
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...he IS your husband. You made that covenant with God and your husband the day you married.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have battled with the fact that I made a life long committment to God and my H. It's been largely responsible for why I have allowed things to drag out for another 4+ months since the one year mark of separation. Quite frankly, I refuse to live my life tied to a husband who won't live his life treating me as his wife. I won't bang my head against the wall for the rest of my life (stay with my H, no matter how he behaves or how he treats me) to retain this covenant.

I'm not allowing guilt to control me anymore. That's honestly how I feel. Oh, I know in your eyes, it's not living for God if I live my life according to how I feel. So be it for now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, your commitment to God to live in humble obedience to His will is what comes first.

My opinion really doesn't matter. What I try to do is to tell you what God has said in the Scripture. If I had to bet, I'd bet that it's been a long time since you read the Bible for yourself. Is it really any wonder that you continue to call God a liar?

Jen, your mind seems to be made up. I will not be "bothering you" again. But a couple of things for you to think about as you are "feelings" your way through life.

Jen, you committed the adultery with his best friend. While I think that your husband is having an especially difficult time dealing with the fact that his wife would "spread 'em" for anyone, let alone someone he thought of as his best friend, it was YOUR decision that predicated this whole mess. It was YOUR decision that has left you with these tough consquences of your actions to deal with this past 16 months.

You did what you did because you allowed your "feelings" to control your actions. Yes, you have tried to blame it on alcohol, but you made the choice knowing that it was wrong to begin with.

Now you are right back to where you started. "I don't care what God has to say about it, I am going to let my feeling control my actions."

So be it, Jen. You prefer non-Christian counsel to Christian counsel. You prefer to blame others and then use the "excuse" that "I will not be guilted into....". Jen, you need to reexamine your position with Christ. You need to look at what HE endured for YOU and tell HIM about guilt, remorse, repentance, forgiveness, endurance, obedience to God, humbly submitting YOUR will to HIS will for as long as it takes.

I am NOT surprised that your husband has not been more forthcoming because he does not make Christ the center of his life either. You spend no time talking to him about Christ, forgiveness, and living a life conformed to God's commands.

Here's the bottom line, Jen, according to Scripture. You committed the adultery. Your husband, not you, has the "right" to divorce you. You "prefer" human reason and the good old USA "easy divorce" rules over something even as tragic as "no fault divorce." You prefer society's concept of disposable marriage because it "feels" easier that the hard and difficult road of marital commitment.

The road you should be on is talking with your husband about filing the papers to divorce you. It is his right, but here you are again wanting to "do it Jen's way". Gee, Jen, I'm really sorry I (I am) that your post adultery path has been so difficult for your husband, but it happens. Sometimes it does take longer than the average of 2 years to recover a marriage. But Jen is only good 1.5 years, not a lifetime commitment. Only Jen's feelings have merit, not obedience to God.

Seems like we are right back to square one again. Right where we were when you chose your feelings over obedience to God in the face of temptation the first time.

May God grant you wisdom Jen.

God bless.

Well FH, at the very least, thank-you for your directness. Your posts have been the source of much turmoil for me in the past year, I DO think about their content a great deal.

On the one hand, I have SO MANY people in my life (family and friends, Christian and non-Christian) telling me to move on already, that I deserve so much better. Then there's you telling me to wait up to 2 years or more, while my ovaries dry up and my chances at becoming a mother decrease by the month, or at least ask my H to start the DV proceedings, Well, it's already too late, I filed the first set of papers and they remain on file for at least a year, so I guess I am going to hell if the Dv ever does go through (within this year).

On the other hand, prayer seems to be working, even if it's really slowly, since I got to just hang out and watch a rented movie with my H last night. He hasn't invited me to do something simple and fun like that at all since we separated. I wasn't good enough for that kind of simple and fun activity with him, only his girlfriends were. I was praying and praying for God to drive a wedge between my H and his girlfriends. Well, one got a job at a different school this year, and the other one has found a boyfriend, so he doesn't have as much of their time or interest anymore, hence his return to me.

No, I haven't spent a great deal of time reading the Bible, I only peek into it now and again. You are wrong about my supposed never talking to my H about God in his/our lives. I have talked to him about God, about prayer, and about what I pray for ever day. When I inquire about how often he speaks to God, and about what, he says he doesn't really talk to God much anymore at all in the past year or so. Funny thing though, his mom drags him to church on most Sundays, or at least she did before summer and fishing/camping season began.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems like we are right back to square one again. Right where we were when you chose your feelings over obedience to God in the face of temptation the first time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think we're back at square one yet. For one, I haven't restarted the Dv proceedings, for two, I'm giving my H more time as we speak, it's just that I'm hoping to stick to the one month guideline. I've told him to choose to either work on this marriage or to choose to live his life without me. So far he seems to be choosing the first option, but only time will tell.

So there's my completely honest response, just as my last response was. You don't have to "bother" me again if you don't want to if you feel I'm a lost cause.

Jen

Forever Hers. I feel that you should give Jen Brown and anyone else needing a second chance a break. Sometimes on the divorced board they talk of Christians being judgmental instead of loving and graceful. I feel that you are being judgmental in this case. You don't know that Jen doesn't have "the right" to divorce her husband. He has been into pornography and possibly having an affair with two other women. Instead of practicing compassion, it seems you want to judge Jen because of mistakes she has long tried to make up for. She IS making effort. She HAS been patient. She has also been degraded and used by her husband. That hasn't changed. Her sin is no excuse for his bad behavior. At MB we do Plan A, as in bettering ourselves as the BS. For some reason, Jen's husband has been out of control, yet people want her to continue on in this mess. Jen, I hope you will read the Bible and pray to God for your decisions to be wise and Godly. I also hope you know God loves you and covers you in his grace and mercy. And you are NOT back to square one. There is growing for all of us to do. Lots of it. We will never achieve perfection nor or we expected to. That is why Jesus died on the cross for us. But use that to be wiser and stronger. Use your past mistakes to learn how to treat a man and a husband. To learn to love and cherish him. If this is not your current husband, then you can search God's will for if His will is for you to be with someone else. Forgiveness washes away sin, and divorce is like any other sin- forgotten in God's eyes. He purifies even the darkest sins of adultery if you let HIm.
God is a God of mercy, grace and forgiveness, and divorce is not the unforgivable sin. It hurts like hell, it isn't His will for us, but you can grow, change and learn from it and move on to a better life if you let good come from it.

<small>[ September 15, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

It might be a good idea for ALL of us to practice avoiding love busters with our fellow MB members so that we can make sure that they won't appear when we deal with something unpleasant with our loved ones. Remember that ALL of us have the best of intentions when we give our opinions on these forums, even if they may be controversial or contrary to our own. Kindness begets kindness.

Just my 2 cents. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Post above TMCM edited after thinking about TMCM's post.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2MCM:

Thank you for that post!

FH: Not surprisingly, I disagree with most of what you're saying. Not just because I'm an atheist with a different Christian upbringing than your own, but because I remember the circumstances around Jen's two ONSs from the first day she posted here, and I am one of those that believes, based on the evidence we have 2 date, that Mr Jen has been involved in EAs with his "female friends", possibly PAs, but even if not affairs in the MB sense, then certainly inappropriate relationships while his M 2 Jen is in the balance.

None of our opionions or instructions 2 Jen as 2 what she should or shouldn't be doing, what rights she has or doesn't have - none of that matters. Only Jen and her religious and spiri2al beliefs matters as she decides what she must do. Whatever she decides, it is OUR responsibility 2 be supportive.

I think you're doing fine, Jen.
♥2long

adgirl48, all I am going to say in response is that perhaps you should go back and review all of my previous posts over the past year+ to Jen. I am very familiar with her story and what her husband has been up to. Jen knows all that I have said, so there is no point in rehashing them for your benefit. If you are curious, they are public record.

I stand by being obedient to God, even when we don't "feel like it". If that offends you in some way, I am sorry. But I will not hesitate to stand in favor of marriage and in favor of being obedient to God's commands regardless of whether or not you feel it's "judgmental" in some way. There is right and there is wrong, and the Scripture reveals God's standard on those issues.

Do I think that her hubby has more than his share of problems and contributions to their problems? Oh most certainly. But the issue is quite simple for me. They both claim to be Christians. As such it is Christian principles that are guided by God's commands that take precedence whether we like it or not, whether we find it "easy" to be obedient or not. THAT is what I stress for Jen BECAUSE she claims the title of Christian.

2Long, as you stated, we disagree. Not surprising since you are not a Christian and yet seek to impose your non-Christian thoughts and ideas on a Christian. It is God who guides Christians, not unbelievers. I know that sounds critical and harsh and I don't mean to be offensive. But Christians follow God whether it's "nice" or not because they have chosen God over man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">None of our opionions or instructions 2 Jen as 2 what she should or shouldn't be doing, what rights she has or doesn't have - none of that matters. Only Jen and her religious and spiri2al beliefs matters as she decides what she must do. Whatever she decides, it is OUR responsibility 2 be supportive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, 2Long, it is Jen's responsibility to decide what she will do. Yes her religious and spiritual beliefs do matter in her decisions. Yes, she is a Christian and therefore should be making her decisions based upon Scriptural directions and not her "feelings".

No, I do not ascribe to the highlighted segment of your response. It is NOT our responsibility to be supportive of decisions that she might seem to be making regardless of whether they are right or wrong. And I don't think you truly believe that either.

To accept your premise means that any action one decides to take is "right" and should be supported by all of us. Think about that 2Long. What you are advocating has far reaching potential consequences. We should support someone in having an affair because they "think" it's right for them?

Now you try to minimize the impact of that statement by saying that "our opinions" don't count. All that "counts" is Jen's religious and spiritual beliefs. I do agree with that part of your statement, and that is why I raised a call for perseverence. That was because I was reading posts from everyone urging her to call an end to her recovery efforts and get a divorce. Jen is a Christian. SOMEONE needs to at least state a Christian perspective. I don't expect that from someone like yourself who rejects Christ, but I would expect it from other Christians.

And yes, 2Long, I know Jen's "history" from the past year through posts both here on MB and through emails. So, yes, I do know the mess she is dealing with. I have also seen some things change that she thought were one way, when we first started talking, and now present a completely different position and have the potential to positively influence a reconcilitation between Jen and her husband. For example, when Jen and I first began talking, it seemed that her husband's parents were very much in favor of his leaving her and in an "unChristian" approach to the whole mess. Now we see a different picture.

What I am saying is that God's timetable is NOT our timetable. We would like everthing fixed NOW. But God is interested NOT in giving you a happy marriage, but in each individual's walk and relationship with Him FIRST. The "happy marriage" comes as a result of the individuals within the marriage following God in humble obedience. Some of us take longer than others to learn the lessons. We are stubborn, rebellious, etc. But God will NOT let go of true believers, no matter how rebellious they get. He will work to bring them back to Him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't have to "bother" me again if you don't want to if you feel I'm a lost cause.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, I don't feel you are "lost cause". I am actually quite encouraged by your latest posting. Remember, my post was in response to your previous postings where you were stating, essentially, that others were right and you should "throw in the towel" (i.e., the title of your thread for example).

Now you post that perhaps he is choosing option 1 over option 2.

Jen, it's not easy for any of us and you've had an especially difficult time with your husband's reactions. I sincerely wish that it would be easy for all of us, but the truth is that it is easier for some than it is for others. In some cases, recovery won't happen. I make the distinction in "how to help" and "what to say" based upon whether or not someone claims to be a Christian. If they are, then there is no other practical choice but to be obedient to God.

Since you don't spend a lot of time in your Bible, might I suggest that you read just the book of Job a few times. God tells us that sometimes it takes a long time but that He is looking for people to remain faithful to Him regardless of their circumstances. That's why I posted. To help, hopefully, refocus your decision making onto patience and a willingness to wait on God.

God bless....and my apologies if you found it offensive.

FH, I agree that God's timing is not our timing - and no one knows better than Jen. For what it's worth, God's timing is not your timing either. I know the voice of religious abuse and you're dancing on that last nerve that tells me someone is over the line and playing God's voice in someone else's life.

God is a personal God - and Jen has the right to have Him speak directly to her, not through someone who exerts unrighteous judgment on her. Your claim of pleasing God rather than man.. well, rage, domination and bashing a sister for following the path and timing God has inspired her to follow is apparent because God is not a God of confusion - yet you cause spiritual confusion in your wake - not peace, but confusion. So check yourself, please. There was confusion in the days of Christ over the Spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law. The Pharasees would condemn Jesus for harvesting corn for his Sunday meal, for healing on the Sabbath. Your letter of the law diatribes are no different than the Pharasees. You lack the Spirit to discern God's will for Jen. You also lack the right to that discernment because Jen is not your stewardship.

Of course, I've been personally abused by your kind before, so you likely will not HEAR what is written here and you will only justify further abuse. I would encourage Jen to ignore the abuser in her midst, and listen to God as He speaks to her - not as some pharasee would command in the letter of the law.

FH:

Hm... At the risk of getting dragged in2 something I'd rather not do, I feel compelled 2 address some of your comments 2 me specifically.

"2Long, as you stated, we disagree. Not surprising since you are not a Christian and yet seek to impose your non-Christian thoughts and ideas on a Christian."

No, FH, I don't. I DO believe that Jen should think for herself, but you seem 2 interpret THAT 2 mean that Jen shouldn't follow her God. That is not what I've ever said.

"It is God who guides Christians, not unbelievers."

Indeed.

"I know that sounds critical and harsh and I don't mean to be offensive."

No, it sounds offensive, not critical or harsh.

"But Christians follow God whether it's "nice" or not because they have chosen God over man."

And there are a lot of "flavors" of Christianity. Many, particularly fundamentalist religions, come across as rules and regulations more than spiri2al paths 2 enlightenment.

"No, I do not ascribe to the highlighted segment of your response. It is NOT our responsibility to be supportive of decisions that she might seem to be making regardless of whether they are right or wrong. And I don't think you truly believe that either."

I believe that Jen is more than capable of finding the path that's right for her, based on her belief system and use of the mind that God gave her. I believe David Schnarch's statement "Don't identify with your feelings, because your feelings can change" (paraphrased), so I would say that doing what she "feels" is right is being misinterpreted in a subtle way, here (though I'm not sure I ever ac2ally said that, I may have. Just know that your interpretation of that statement on my part is not what I meant).

"What you are advocating has far reaching potential consequences. We should support someone in having an affair because they "think" it's right for them?"

Hm... Don't think I've ever advocated this. BUT, and this may be where you've gotten this idea, we can't change OTHERS' behaviors, we can only live our lives the way we believe we should and hope others around us will choose 2 do likewise as examples. In a sense, this might sound like we're supporting our WSs while they're having affairs. But it's not. It's encouraging them 2 figure out what is right for them and what is not, and getting off the fence.

"All that "counts" is Jen's religious and spiritual beliefs. I do agree with that part of your statement, and that is why I raised a call for perseverence."

I haven't told Jen 2 DV. That may or may not be what's best for her and her H at this time. I don't know.

"Jen is a Christian. SOMEONE needs to at least state a Christian perspective."

That's fine, but remember that there will be multiple perspectives from Christians.

"I don't expect that from someone like yourself who rejects Christ, but I would expect it from other Christians."

Don't put words in2 my mouth, FH. I do not reject Christ. I do reject dogma, however. I should probably not describe myself as an atheist, but a spiri2alist.

"I do know the mess she is dealing with. I have also seen some things change that she thought were one way, when we first started talking, and now present a completely different position and have the potential to positively influence a reconcilitation between Jen and her husband."

I've seen it 2. And I see where you're coming from and would agree with you that reconciliation may be possible.

Back 2 you, Jen.
-2long

Forever Hers,
Did you read TMCM's post? I did and edited my original post. Because I did not want to sound disrespectful. But you are disrespecting all over the place.
You said:
adgirl48, all I am going to say in response is that perhaps you should go back and review all of my previous posts over the past year+ to Jen. I am very familiar with her story and what her husband has been up to. Jen knows all that I have said, so there is no point in rehashing them for your benefit. If you are curious, they are public record.

I HAVE read your posts. As a Christian, I know that you scare me with your harshness to others. KaylaAndy has it right on the money. You are crossing a line between lovingly reaching out to sinning, hurting sisters, and being judgmental and abusive. 2 long is not a Christian. Reading your posts I wouldn't want to be a Christian either if I was him. You don't really sound like someone who wants to win him to Christ. MY point is, you keep telling Jen her husband has the right to divorce her and she doesn't have the right to divorce him. This sounds like you approve of pornography or OW friends to me. Oh she slept with someone else, who is his best friend, so that is the unforgivable adulterer sin. But he can look at porn and spend time with OW doing only he knows what and in the meantime being verbally abusive to Jen and that is ok. Because we should all be humble in Christ. hmmm. I thought Christ died on the cross for ALL these sins- pornography..adultery...lying...cheating...and washed them away if we turned to Him. Yet you proclaim that Jen's husband can divorce her because he has a "right" but she must live in obedience to her marriage and stay with him. Even if it is hurting her spiritually and emotionally. I'm sorry, but the God I know wants me to step out of the filth and let Him carry me through, not continue on it for the sake of "keeping together the marriage".. I am not telling Jen to divorce, I am merely telling her to seek God and look at the facts of this past year and how she is growing.
Divorce IS sometimes inevitable.

<small>[ September 15, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Jen,

You've made the statement that you are a Christian. Maybe FH doesn't know exactly what that means to you. I have not seen you ever post what being a Christian means to you.

For for some of us who say we are Christians it means we have a relationship with Jesus where we walk beside Him daily, depending on Him and looking towards Him no matter what comes our way and no matter how hard that way may be. It means our relationship with Him is based on what He has revealed to us through His Word in the Bible. We know Him through the instruction He has given us in His Word and we try as hard as we can to trust Him and be obedient to those instructions. We believe in His promise that if we are obedient we will have life and have it abundantly. Some of us have even discovered that it's in those times that we are less than obedient that our life is anything but abundant. Do we fail in being obedient to God's instructions, sure all the time, for we are imperfect humans just like anyone else. But to us, in professing that we are Christians, it means that we look to Him as our source of guidance in all things, even though we fail at it. For us, being a Christian has nothing to do with religion or denomination for those things do not make one a Christian. Going to church each Sunday ( or whatever day) does not make a person a Christian, anymore than sleeping in your garage makes you a Chevy. That may be exactly why your H can be drug to church each week by his mother and still not be thinking of God very much. Going to church isn't going to "do it" for him or for anyone else for that matter. As, Christians,our religions or rituals will not save us, only walking with the Lord will.

I don't think FH is trying to thump you over the head with his bible. I think he's a well intentioned bible believing Christian who puts His trust in Jesus and His Word. He'd be remiss in his duty as a Christian man to guide you in any other way that didn't reflect God's instruction to Christians in His Word. You made the statement that you are a Christian and he's approaching you from his frame of reference as to what being a Christian means to him because you haven't clarified any thoughts or belief to the contrary. He's not judging you. He's not trying to make you feel guilty. He's simply counseling you with God's Word which is the highest authority for his life. God's Word does talk about nonbelieving spouses abandoning their partners and this may be the case in your marriage, though it doesn't seem your H has quite yet "abandoned" you. You are simply very impatient with him. Could it be because you don't quite trust God to be in control. I assure you Jen, His way is always better than our own, if we trust enough to leave our burdens in His hands and wait.

As far as what "being" a Christian is all about, it's more than just "saying" you believe that Jesus Christ was God,died for our sins and rose from the dead. If you look at Matt 7: 21-27 (NKJ) Jesus says this
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day ' Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your Name, and done many wonders in Your Name?' And then I will declare to them 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' Therefore whoever heard these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock and the rain descended, the floods came and the winds blew and beat on his house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it fell. And great was its fall.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The message is Christ's. FH is just the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger Jen. He's just trying to guide you in the way he, as a Christian, believes is the truth. He wants to see you, your H and your marriage come into abundance, in a way he has personally experienced as the way to have abundance. There is no condemnation from a man, only God can do that.

So, if you are offended by "bible thumpers" who sound "like a broken record" maybe you would do well to clarify what exactly being a Christian means to you. By doing this you might find that the advise you get might come from a frame of reference that is likeminded or similar to your definition of what being a Christian means. Then the bible thumpers, as you call them/us would move on to post to other Christians who come from their same frame of reference. All the best to you!

<small>[ September 15, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

mh:

This is the point:

"The message is Christ's. FH is just the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger Jen. He's just trying to guide you in the way he, as a Christian, believes is the truth. "

But even here I think you can see the subjectivity we all bring 2 the table. I, personally, prefer the King James version of the Bible 2 the modern translations. But even the King James version was translated many centuries after the last events recorded in the Bible.

An example of the subjectivity we all bring: I agree, the message (however translated it may be), is Christ's, but the messenger was Jesus, not FH. FH brings his OWN interpretation of the message here. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just different from what you might hear from some Christian religions. But I do agree that FH is just trying 2 be helpful in the best way he knows how. What he "knows" is based on his belief system, which may or may not differ from Jen's.

That's all I'm saying.
-2long

Hi 2Long,

Yes, I agree with you that FH is trying to be helpful. Honestly, in my years and years at MBers I don't find much condemnation going on, just differing points of view. I don't think Jen's situation is the exception to the rule either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> An example of the subjectivity we all bring: I agree, the message (however translated it may be), is Christ's, but the messenger was Jesus, not FH. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the great commission, given to us by Jesus , we as Christians were instructed to go out to all the world and tell the good news. So despite the fact that the message is Jesus' you will have many messengers. Thus, the state of Christianity today, with many "flavors", as you call them. You see, I don't believe that Jesus intended for their to be varied flavors or intensities of Christianity. I believe what He wanted was a personal relationship with each one of us, not many different denominations or flavors arguing over who's right and who's wrong. Jesus had something to say about those flavors who are lukewarm, or watered down, He said "I will vomit you out of my mouth" Rev3:16

FH just may come from the variety of Christian that takes the Bible at it's face value( and we could argue all day about translation issues). Some Christians today will tell you they don't believe the bible is the Word of God at all. If one doesn't make a daily conscious effort ( this is not saying we never fail at it)to follow Christ and His teachings in their entirety, as given to us in His Word, what purpose does calling oneself a "christian" serve? Jesus didn't tell us to pick and choose what we felt was right for us, He told us to pick up our cross and follow Him, period. He told us the way was narrow and difficult, not wide and easy. Christianity was never meant to be a smorgasboard religion, where we pick what we like or what is appetizing and leave the rest. It was meant to be a personal relationship with a God who loves us enough to give us free will and Who hopes we will draw close to Him and discerne His Will through His Word. If we could get into a close relationship with and know God without the sacred writings, He wouldn't have given them to us in the first place.

This is where I espouse the view that religion will fail us every time, because it's been flavored by men. We're best off taking God at His Word and having a relationship with Him. If Christians are serious students of God's Word and serious about cultivating a relationship with Him, they take the time and effort to go back to the original language ( Greek) the New Testament was written in and delve into studying the original meanings of the words in the original writings of the disciples who wrote them. It would be difficult to know if anyone on an internet message board does that or not, even if they said they did, unless one had done so themselves. We should not depend on any human being's interpretation.We should look into it for ourselves for it's our own eternity that depends on it. Therefore I think it is wise counsel on the part of any Christian to encourage fellow believers and non believers alike to not only read but to "study" their bible. I think I've seen FH encourage Jen to do just that on many occasions.

All the best to you too 2Long!

Hey Jen what's the latest news on the home front?

Me oh my, you folks have been busy today, and I just got home after a long day that included a late meeting, and trying to take some time to exercise too.

No new news with H - not a peep out of him since I left his place.

Also, as at least one person was wondering, for me, being a Christian means that I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour, and that I pray to Him daily, and seek to live my life in a God-pleasing fashion.

I have a nasty sniffly cold that's nearly wiped me out, so please forgive me if I wait another day to respond more thoughtfully to all that has been posted.

Jen (where's the runny nose gremlin? lol) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jen,
Take some Tylenol and call us in the morning.
haha. Chicken soup is good for the soul, and cold, and how about some lotion kleenex, a warm bath, and snuggling under the covers and getting a good nights sleep!!!!

Take some vitamin C and vitamin E as well as plenty of water and rest. We'll be here when you feel well enough to come back and talk about your sitch. Take good care of yourself Jen.