</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"likewise you can now face the certainty that something is seriously awry with your marriage, otherwise you would have had no desire to wander, and you can deal with that as well...."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This doesn't take into consideration that many people tend to become addicted to an OP even if most of their needs are being satisfied inside healthy and relatively happy marriages. Or that there are personal issues in the WS that make him/her extremely susceptible to have an affair. A happy marriage is not always an affair proof marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"likewise you can now face the certainty that something is seriously awry with your marriage, otherwise you would have had no desire to wander, and you can deal with that as well...."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This doesn't take into consideration that many people tend to become addicted to an OP even if most of their needs are being satisfied inside healthy and relatively happy marriages. Or that there are personal issues in the WS that make him/her extremely susceptible to have an affair. A happy marriage is not always an affair proof marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...anything is possible coffee, but I assume people are for the most part normal healthy human beings...rather than mentally ill. If she has a sexual addiction issue, or other serious personality disorder than hopefully she will come to realize that and take appropriate action. Most of the time this is not the case, affairs are marital relationship failures, nothing more, nothing less, just normal life....the marriage may be satisfactory it may not, but usually the marriage is substantially dishonest in that radical honesty is not being practiced either with self, or with partner. The fact of the matter is many people are in marriages they would not choose again if they could live their lives over, this does not mean either party is "good" or "bad"...they just don't fit well....and IMO it behooves everyone in a disharmonious marital crisis to assess whether they really want to be there.....as opposed to thinking they should be there, or the kids will be unhappy, or whatever. Marriage is hard enough without fully understanding you want to be there more than anything else in life....that is not so easy to be honest about with oneself. IMO the majority of recovery failures are because people have not fully dealt with what they really want. By not doing so they do not adequately commit themself to the marriage.

btw, addiction is euphemistic way to negatively counteract attraction to someone else...might as well say one is addicted to ones marriage then if they cannot leave it. There is no such thing as addiction to another human being, and I personally will not talk about normal human attraction in such terms, it is nonsensical, and of little help IMO. Further it demeans the person feeling the attraction, suggesting their feelings don't count. Oft times the op is quite worthy, the attraction (under other circumstances) quite justified and healthy, the problem is the circumstances not the feelings.....so difficulty turning away from such is healthy...hence my approach which is to show why it is in ones best interest to do so for healthy reasons, not suggest they have some unhealthy addiction....it is suppose to be hard to give up someone you percieve fits you.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb:

"btw, addiction is euphemistic way to negatively counteract attraction to someone else...might as well say one is addicted to ones marriage then if they cannot leave it. There is no such thing as addiction to another human being, and I personally will not talk about normal human attraction in such terms, it is nonsensical, and of little help IMO. Further it demeans the person feeling the attraction, suggesting their feelings don't count. Oft times the op is quite worthy, the attraction (under other circumstances) quite justified and healthy, the problem is the circumstances not the feelings.....so difficulty turning away from such is healthy...hence my approach which is to show why it is in ones best interest to do so for healthy reasons, not suggest they have some unhealthy addiction....it is suppose to be hard to give up someone you percieve fits you."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to disagree with you but the pain of withdrawl that WS's ,like meandqctbe, stud4, and DIR, go through to end their affairs shows exactly how much of an addiction it is.

Too Much coffee man..
It is an addiction..I know that I am addicted to OM. I am addicted to the way I feel when I talk with him and see him. I am addicted to him physically..but..much more emotionally. I broke NC with him and saw him a few days ago. I am attempting it again. It is so hard and I know that until I stop all contact the addiction will not go away. As much as I have a great time with him..he is not a better man than my husband. And yes, good marriages are not always A proof. I am living proof of that. Again...I was happily married until this A happened. I do feel that I am in love with OM...I hope that it is only an addiction and that I can stop. I am at the point that I cannot function in everyday life anymore...It is so unfair to my family. They know that something is not right and I am not able to be the woman/friend/mother/wife that I used to be. I have not posted much lately because I am sooo ashamed and know that I will catch flack on these forums (rightly so). I really want everyone on these boards to know that I do read posts daily and I am trying to end this A. I appreciate all feedback and pray everyday that this pain will go away. Thanks Again!

If it suits your (or anyones) purpose to consider normal behaviour addictive, than by all means do so...but in so doing you won't see or deal with the real issues, thereby potetially shooting oneself in the foot....IMO behaviour modification works much better when you understand why you do what you do, and choose an action you want to do accordingly....trying to convince yourself you are "addicted" rather than admitting the feelings are real, appropriate, and you should want to continue the relationship is victim talk, and does not help identify the real motivations, or insure future fidelity. By understanding why the affair will not lead to a good outcome despite potentially being a good match (if it was), lets one quite easily end the affair with little or no withdrawal symptons.

You might love hot fudge sundaes, and having one in front of you be irresistable...but if you see it covered with flies which then fly off, you will have little trouble resisting a bite. This is much more effective then beating yourself up cause you are addicted and just can't control yourself, even if you do have poor self-control...capish?

I have seen little evidence telling someone they are "addicted" to another human being is of any use in ending an affair. On the other hand I have seen much evidence that understanding why you are in the affair, understanding yourself and/or the op as well, leads to the permanent ending of affairs, and a greatly reduced likelihood of future infidelity with the same op, or another. Hence my efforts to educate confused ws to the fact that even if their affair partner is a better choice for them, they still cannot get there without ending the affair first, and properly resolving their current relationship without the possibility (meaning the op is not "waiting" for them so to speak) of the op in their life.

btw Those who think normal human relationships are "addictive" need to look up the medical definition of addiction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"trying to convince yourself you are "addicted" rather than admitting the feelings are real, appropriate, and you should want to continue the relationship is victim talk, and does not help identify the real motivations, or insure future fidelity."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No amount of rationalization is going to help a WS end the A, and it was very probably rationalization, coupled with dishonesty, that contributed to the WS taking the steps that lead to the slippery slpe of the A to begin with. Admitting that you have an addiction is NOT an abdication of responsibility.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meandgctbe:
<strong>Too Much coffee man..
It is an addiction..I know that I am addicted to OM. I am addicted to the way I feel when I talk with him and see him. I am addicted to him physically..but..much more emotionally. I broke NC with him and saw him a few days ago. I am attempting it again. It is so hard and I know that until I stop all contact the addiction will not go away. As much as I have a great time with him..he is not a better man than my husband. And yes, good marriages are not always A proof. I am living proof of that. Again...I was happily married until this A happened. I do feel that I am in love with OM...I hope that it is only an addiction and that I can stop. I am at the point that I cannot function in everyday life anymore...It is so unfair to my family. They know that something is not right and I am not able to be the woman/friend/mother/wife that I used to be. I have not posted much lately because I am sooo ashamed and know that I will catch flack on these forums (rightly so). I really want everyone on these boards to know that I do read posts daily and I am trying to end this A. I appreciate all feedback and pray everyday that this pain will go away. Thanks Again!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a recovering alcoholic (sober for over 20 years <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) I can tell you that what helped me from withdrawl was to acknowledge that my recovery was a one day at a time process which I could not speed up no matter what. I constantly told myself 'I won't make any promises about tomorrow but TODAY I am not going to succumb' and repeated that mantra the following day, and the day after that until the cravings for alcohol were no longer intense and I could function as normal as a healthier human being can. The point of the exercise is to take the seemingly overwhelming task of never again touching the drug, and break it down to a much more emotionally acceptable level. I hope this helps you.

meand, maybe it would be helpful to visualize the om covered with flies whenever you think of him.

I do concur with how withdrawal "feels", that being a angst ridden, scarey kind of place...my point is this is normal and ok, it is the same way one feels about when a marriage may end...it is the feeling that comes with any valued relationship. In that sense all relationships are addictive, IMO it is of little use to think thusly of relationships, or try to end one cause it is an "addiction". Better to end an affair cause it will fail anyways then to "make" yourself end it cause it is an addiction...that places you at odds with yourself, cause part of you thinks maybe it is the best choice....and it may be (although usually not). It also implies there is something wrong with you, you are an "addict", I don't agree, you are most likely a perfectly normal person, and the affair arises out of perfectly normal feelings...I doubt you need to fix anything in the sense of being an addict, and instead have a lot of self-introspective work to do, about you and your marriage. You will be less likely to do that if you instead think their is something wrong with you that needs to be "fixed".

As for the inevitable withdrawal, it should pass quickly if you UNDERSTAND that ending the affair is the best choice for you (and the om), regardless of how worthy the om was or was not. I cannot empasize too much how much quicker one gets through withdrawal when you understand it is the best choice, not an addiction. good luck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meandgctbe:
<strong>Too Much coffee man..
It is an addiction..I know that I am addicted to OM. I am addicted to the way I feel when I talk with him and see him. I am addicted to him physically..but..much more emotionally. I broke NC with him and saw him a few days ago. I am attempting it again. It is so hard and I know that until I stop all contact the addiction will not go away. As much as I have a great time with him..he is not a better man than my husband. And yes, good marriages are not always A proof. I am living proof of that. Again...I was happily married until this A happened. I do feel that I am in love with OM...I hope that it is only an addiction and that I can stop. I am at the point that I cannot function in everyday life anymore...It is so unfair to my family. They know that something is not right and I am not able to be the woman/friend/mother/wife that I used to be. I have not posted much lately because I am sooo ashamed and know that I will catch flack on these forums (rightly so). I really want everyone on these boards to know that I do read posts daily and I am trying to end this A. I appreciate all feedback and pray everyday that this pain will go away. Thanks Again!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a recovering alcoholic (sober for over 20 years <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) I can tell you that what helped me from withdrawl was to acknowledge that my recovery was a one day at a time process which I could not speed up no matter what. I constantly told myself 'I won't make any promises about tomorrow but TODAY I am not going to succumb' and repeated that mantra the following day, and the day after that until the cravings for alcohol were no longer intense and I could function as normal as a healthier human being can. The point of the exercise is to take the seemingly overwhelming task of never again touching the drug, and break it down to a much more emotionally acceptable level. I hope this helps you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...That is advice I can agree with. Reduce your time horizon down to something manageable...whether it is the next week, next day, next hour, next minute...then keep that time constraint until you are ready to move up to the next interval. I also have heard (never been a recovering addict...well except for chocolate maybe) that if possible an accountability partner who you can call on 24/7 is very helpful....do you concur coffee? You can use MB sort of, always someone here, but not sure if that is as good as real life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"trying to convince yourself you are "addicted" rather than admitting the feelings are real, appropriate, and you should want to continue the relationship is victim talk, and does not help identify the real motivations, or insure future fidelity."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No amount of rationalization is going to help a WS end the A, and it was very probably rationalization, coupled with dishonesty, that contributed to the WS taking the steps that lead to the slippery slpe of the A to begin with. Admitting that you have an addiction is NOT an abdication of responsibility.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree, and you mischaracterize the process. I agree rationalization will not work....but rational reason will.....every time. No normally healthy individual will continue a behaviour they understand does not lead to a good outcome, the trick is to achieve that understanding.

Drug and alcohol abuse are addictions because they cause a biochemical condition in the afflicted person....there is no such mechanism for relationships....there can (and are) a whole bunch of potential psychological issues, that is an entirely different animal. But most times affairs are just normal healthy manifestations of human bonding needs (just pursued at the wrong time), and stopping one is suppose to be difficult. If it weren't than people would leave marriages without any problem at all, and that would not be a good thing either would it....nor would we advise someone, oh you are just addicted to your marriage, that is a bad thing, something wrong with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb:

"As for the inevitable withdrawal, it should pass quickly if you UNDERSTAND that ending the affair is the best choice for you (and the om), regardless of how worthy the om was or was not. I cannot empasize too much how much quicker one gets through withdrawal when you understand it is the best choice, not an addiction. good luck."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry but there are many WS's that share your view that they are not addicted to their OP and yet still have one heck of a time when it comes to ending their A and going throught the withdrawl process that they will beg to differ with you on how quickly they are recovering.

I know that you are trying to empower her to end her A and that is good but by helping her to deny the truth about her addiction it is tantamount to helping her deny reality which is what A's are all based upon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Drug and alcohol abuse are addictions because they cause a biochemical condition in the afflicted person....there is no such mechanism for relationships....there can (and are) a whole bunch of potential psychological issues, that is an entirely different animal."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course there are biochemical conditions (ever heard of hormones?) because if there weren't there wouldn't be any attraction or bonding between males and females.

Besides it is not just my layman opinion but that of Dr Harley and many others that have studied affairs. And by the way Dr Harley, at one time, was in charged of a drug rehabilitation clinic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Drug and alcohol abuse are addictions because they cause a biochemical condition in the afflicted person....there is no such mechanism for relationships....there can (and are) a whole bunch of potential psychological issues, that is an entirely different animal."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course there are biochemical conditions (ever heard of hormones?) because if there weren't there wouldn't be any attraction or bonding between males and females.

Besides it is not just my layman opinion but that of Dr Harley and many others that have studied affairs. And by the way Dr Harley, at one time, was in charged of a drug rehabilitation clinic.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...geez coffee, you are determined aren't you...ok, ADVERSE, UNHEALTHY, biochemical changes.....relationships cause HEALTHY changes, desireable changes. That clarify things? In any event, point me to a medical textbook identifying attraction to other human beings as an addiction to be treated and I will yield the position to you. And Dr. Harley does not liken affairs to addictions, he likens the difficulty in withdrawal to similar feelings in addictive withdrawal, and he does so simply as an analogy to help folks understand the process, not so they think there is something wrong with themselves that needs to be fixed, or that the affair itself was not a healthy, normal, manifestation of human behaviour.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb:

"As for the inevitable withdrawal, it should pass quickly if you UNDERSTAND that ending the affair is the best choice for you (and the om), regardless of how worthy the om was or was not. I cannot empasize too much how much quicker one gets through withdrawal when you understand it is the best choice, not an addiction. good luck."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry but there are many WS's that share your view that they are not addicted to their OP and yet still have one heck of a time when it comes to ending their A and going throught the withdrawl process that they will beg to differ with you on how quickly they are recovering.

I know that you are trying to empower her to end her A and that is good but by helping her to deny the truth about her addiction it is tantamount to helping her deny reality which is what A's are all based upon.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...I do not know any ws who come to understand this that have any difficulty ending their affair. I do know lots who get stuck cause they try to convince themself they have a duty to be married, but are attracted to the op (setting up an unresolvable conflict in themselves thinking they must "choose"). I repeat, she is not addicted to the op anymore than she is addicted to her H, people are not addicted to people...if we are, than all relationships are addictions and therefore should end. What is true, is that regardless one will experience some withdrawal symptons, that very LOOSELY can be compared to the difficulties experienced in ending actuall addictions. Therefore applying techniques such as one day at a time, apply in both cases and are useful to contemplate for this period of withdrawal. But thinking there is something wrong with you needing "fixing" is a serious mistake... not healthy for the individual (unless they truly suffer from some affliction such as sexual addiction, which may be a medical condition, I am not sure), and therefore not healthy for marital reconcilliation either IMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"sufdb...geez coffee, you are determined aren't you."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I should just change my name to pit bull. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ok sufdb I'm going to share with you and all the other MB folks pages 56 and 57 from Dr Willard F Harley Jr's 'Surviving An Affair':

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Addictive Power of An Affair

Several years ago, I owned and operated ten chemical dependcy treatment clinics. At first, we used several different treatment strategies. For some, we tried to encourage moderation, and of others we tried to achieve total abstinence. It wasn't long before all the counselors agreed that total abstinenece was the only way to save drug or alcohol addicts from their self-destructive behavior. Unless they completely abandoned the object of their addiction, the addiction usually returned. For these people, moderation was impossible. The conviction that their drug of choice was off-limits to them for life helped end their cycle of addiction-treatment-addiction.

My strategy for ending an affair with total separation from the lover developed after my experience treating addicts. And, over the years, I've fund my total-separation strategy to be very effective in ending affairs in a way that makes marital recovery possible. Without totalt separation, marital recovery is almost impossible.

An affair is a very powerful addiction. The craving to be with the lover can be so intense that objective reality doesn't have much of a chance. The fact that a spouse and children may be permanently injured by this cruel indulgence doesn't seem to matter. That makes it an addiction.

Even the one-night stand may be an addiction. It may not be an addiction to a particular lover, but it may still be an addiction- to one night stands. In affairs that have low emotional attachment, the addiction is often the act of having sex itself, rather than a particular lover.

The addiction to one-night stands can also grow from a need to be continually assured of one's attractiveness. People who indulge in such practices want to feel that they can have anyone they want, even that person over there sitting at the bar. These people who need constant reassurance of their attractiveness must learn some other way to gain that assurance- a way taht does not destroy their marriage.

The analogy between chemical addiction and an affair is striking. In both cases, the first step toward recovery is admitting that the addiction is self-destructive and harmful to those whom the addict cares for the most - his or her family. After recognizing the need to overcome the addiction, the next step is to suffer through the symptoms of withdrawl. Addicts are often admitted to a hospital or treatment program during the first few weeks of withdrawl to ensure total separation from the addicting substance.

The way to overcome an addiction is tried and proven - abstain from the object of addiction. Alcoholics, for example, must completely avoid contact with any alcoholic beverage to gain control over their addictive behavior[boy can I relate to that]. They must avoid places where the alcohol is likely to be found, such as bars and parties. They must even avoid friends who drink occasionally in their presence. They must surround themselves with an alcohol-free environment. In the same way, when a wayward spouse separates from the lover, extraordinary precautions must be taken to avoid all contact with the lover- for life.

Of course, my advice is not easy to implement. Many people who have had an affair try but fail to make a drastic and decisive break with their lover. In the case of Sue and Jon, Sue managed to se separated from Greg for about a week but couldn't resist talking to him. So her affair continued until it finally died a natural death, leaving pain and suffering in its wake. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I rest my case.

Hmmmm.... well, guess he did say it. But methinks he mis-spoke and would not try to argue it is actually an addiction, and should be included in medical textbooks along with alcoholism, drug addictions, nicotine addictions etc. That book was written long ago, and I guess the good doc is allowed a little hyperbole. But one could call his radio program I guess and see if he really wants to say human attraction is an addiction. if so, then the single minded pursuit of marriage, leaveing home, culture, race, and religion etc. is also an addiction....what do you think? He also mistates the intensity, I doubt many affairs would occur if it meant with absolute certainty the death of ones spouse/children.....people realize no one is actually at risk, at best an affair is simply selfish, that is not a sympton of addiction. Likewise one could make the argument a spouse is addicted to an abusive, unhealthy marriage, and the best thing for the kids would be to leave it, but they don't. I dunno coffee, the whole addiction thing is just stupid IMO, and of little value except to sensationalize, and make affairs seem more than they are.....just normal mundane human behaviour (with the wrong timing). Heck under other circumstances we would think it a great love story the single-minded pursuit at all cost of a great love....right?

Ok sufdb let's agree to disagree on this point. I do though want to acknowledge and commend you on your excellent advice to meandqctbe on this post of yours . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The way to overcome an addiction is tried and proven - abstain from the object of addiction. Alcoholics, for example, must completely avoid contact with any alcoholic beverage to gain control over their addictive behavior[boy can I relate to that]. They must avoid places where the alcohol is likely to be found, such as bars and parties. They must even avoid friends who drink occasionally in their presence. They must surround themselves with an alcohol-free environment. In the same way, when a wayward spouse separates from the lover, extraordinary precautions must be taken to avoid all contact with the lover- for life.

sufdb...This is good advice, just pragmatic in nature, and the fact that it is comparable to what recovering from an addiction is like simple is a comment on being human, and practicing self-discipline.

I differ with him on the need to avoid contact as if it were again to alcohol and another drink. If recovery works, and the marriage worthy, one will not be tempted at all, why would they....if in fact this lover is better suited, then probably the marriage itself is not that good (the 2 don't fit very well) and should end. At which time (assuming both parties are free) one can pursue a healthier relationship. Under this concept, ones marriage is at risk for anyone your spouse ever had any romantic relationship with, pre-maritally or extra-maritally.....this is nonsense....if you really are connected to your spouse, as opposed to just settled for your spouse. The world is full of married folks, just kinda hanging on, their marriages will never be very good, just a place to park your life...this is a sad outcome, and yes, such are more susceptible to a past romance, but I am not so sure that is a bad thing...it may be the incentive you need to take back your life, and end the marriage. But of course that would be wny the other spouse who wants you more, to be adamant about affair proofing the marriage....almost like being a jailor, or something. Personally I do not want a relationship where I am worried about my spouse wanting someone else more than me, I would prefer they left. IMO the solution is not isolation, the solution to marriage is radical honesty, and telling a spouse you really don't want to be married to them if that is true. I think it is insulting and demeaning to tell someone, oh gee, if you see this person in the future I just know you will fall into bed with them...golly gee, I guess marriage is a prison, gotta keep them cell doors locked down tight lest someone escape.

but I digress, it is just the notion people can't think for themselves rubs me the wrong way...anyways agree to disagree on the addiction thing. All in all, the advice is the same anyways, stop the affair, tell your spouse, and get radically honest, while studying up on yourself, and successful marital behaviour.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

OK---excuse me Meand---but Suf and Coffee---luv ya both and all that you have to say--I'm learning a lot--but maybe you should start a thread on this and vent your debate there...OK? OK.

Meand---
So glad you posted and don't ever stay away because you are ashamed----I know how you feel and where you are. Don't be ashamed--you are doing the right thing by coming here for help.

NC--good for you, that's a first step. Breaking it--it was a setback--pick up and try again. It is sooooooooooooo hard----it's like Coffeeman said--the whole addiction thing---hard to stop--but take it one day a time---one hour at a time, that's what I'm doing.

Going through much withdrawal myself and have fallen as well. But learning as I go and will attempt to do it all again. (NC)

Here's how you get to ladies chat--http://www.san-andreas.com/mbladies/chat.php

I hope that's right because I messed it up before--if not--go back through some posts on GQII and look for "ladies chat" by DIR. (And yes, did change the name--ladies in chat renamed me one night--although not feeling real deserving right now.) We may be able to do a private chat and could exchange e-mail addresses so you can contact me quicker when feeling weak. I am usually in ladies chat most evenings after 10:00pm EST I think we can help each other.

Hang in there. You are in my thoughts and prayers.