Well, WH is saying he wants a separation. He says he needs time alone to sort things out. He's tired of living in limbo, and the decision to ask me for a separation has made him feel like we're at least moving. A separation for us means I go to FL to be with family, he stays here (NYC). The reason for this is because I currently am unemployed and have no family here, and if this ends in D I wouldn't stay in NYC anyway.

Below are some excerpts from an email he wrote his Mom. To give you the context he wrote it in, she had sent him a very harsh email, he got very angry and wrote this back...

---
"Yes, I'm miserable. Yes, it's my fault. Yes, I'm working on fixing it. You may not like my choices, but it's not your life. It's mine. And I'll do it my way. Any other way and it'll just be another decision made for other people in 30 years of being "the good son." I'm going to live for myself for a while. If that's selfish or sinful or whatever, then so be it. I'm sick and tired of doing what I'm "supposed" to do.

Trying's not the source of my misery any more than you're the source of my misery. Trying's the woman I married when I had no business getting married. You may not agree with that, but that's how I feel... AND IT'S MY LIFE. By asking Trying for a separation I'm giving her a chance to save our marriage, because if I can't have some time to myself, I'm going to divorce her. Separation is much less final. During that separation I may realize that I've been a fool thinking I wanted a life without Trying. Or I may realize that it is exactly what I wanted. Either way, I'll make a choice, which I've been unable to do with you, her, dad, my therapist, and everyone else pulling me in different directions. Sure, everyone wants to see Trying and I work out, but nobody is willing to let me have the time I need to sort things out ON MY OWN.

I'm not moving to Minnesota [where OW lives]. I'm not giving up my job. I'm not marrying my mistress. I'm not hiding from my problems. Will I see her again if Trying and I separate? Most likely... in fact, almost definitely. I'll also continue to see my therapist every week. I'll spend my free time writing. I'll probably date other women. I'll spend most of my time alone and single. And I'll see how I like it. If, in the course of this time, I realize that I'm better off with Trying, then I'll ask her to come home. If, in the course of this time, I decide that I'm content with the single life, then I'll ask her for a divorce. But if I never try, I'll never be completely content with her... I'll always wonder whether or not I'd be better off alone.

You can preach at me about sin and commitment and god all you want, but I'm not living by your rules anymore. I'm no longer buying the propoganda that the only way to live a happy life is as a Christian. That's just a way to live a subjugated life where your choices are based on the teachings of a mystical religion. Me? I'm ready to live a life where I make my own choices for better or for worse. Where I regret or don't regret my choices, but at least I know I made them because I MADE THEM, not because I read it in some book or heard it from a preacher. If I'm unhappy, then I'm unhappy, but at least I'm unhappy because I'm unhappy, not because I regret not making my own choices.

You and my brother, the latest pop psychologists, have decided that I'm bitter and angry. If I'm bitter or angry about anything, it's regretting my decision to marry Trying. That's weighed on me for years. A week hasn't gone by in probably 5 years that I haven't wondered what my life would have been like had we not married. Yes, I made a terrible error in judgement when I decided to have an affair instead of talking to her about my dissatisfaction or just leaving her outright, but that doesn't change the fact that I've been unhappy in my marriage for years. Hiding it hasn't helped. Now it's all out in the open and I'm trying to sort things out while I've got you clawing my eyes out. So please stop."

---

I felt like dying after I read this. I had no idea he had questioned our M for the last 5 years or that he's been that miserable. I just can't believe anyone can be that good at hiding something like that consistently for THAT long!

Anyway, he met with the C yesterday who asked him questions like: how long will the separation be for, is it a trial separation or a separation you go through for a no-fault D (in our state you have to be separated a year for a no-fault D), are you going to see OW during this time, are you going to be in touch with Trying during this time or be in NC, will Trying come to visit you or you go visit her. My H of course had no answers for any of these questions because he hasn't "thought it all the way through." The C told him if he was doing this to be by himself to have time to think that that was ok, but if he was doing it to see OW, then that wasn't ok. The C said seeing OW wasn't a good idea. He pointed out that if he's in contact with either of us, then he's not really alone. He also told him he shouldn't date other people, my H made the comment he didn't think I would go for that anyway.

We have not gotten to the point of deciding when this would happen. He said to me last night "you haven't agreed to it yet." We are going on vacation from Sep 20-27th. He continues to ask me if I've found a job and talk about trading in our car for a new car. I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone.

I am getting to the end of my rope here. I just don't know what to do. He has said that he's beginning to realize he and the OW don't have a future (she M w/3 kids and refuses to leave MN) and that she's not the answer. But he apparently still wants to see her. They're supposed to be in NC, but she called him a couple days ago (they lasted a whole 1.5 weeks this time). I asked him if he told her he had asked me for a separation and he said he hadn't because he wants to make the decision about us independent of her and so he didn't want to tell her. I told him if we separated and he's talking to her all the time and seeing her then I didn't see how he'd be making any decision independent of her.

I'm going crazy. Maybe I should just look at this as when my Plan B should start. I don't know. After reading that email to his Mom, I'm wondering why I even want to be married to him if that's the way he feels.

Anyone with any insight or wisdom they'd like to give me can step on up. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Thanks. Trying.

I am not expert but it sounds like your H is way way in the FOG and his selfishness is at it's deepest. He wants you to leave so he can live the single life and if he doesn't like it HE WILL ASK YOU TO COME BACK! Gee, did he ever think that maybe you won't want to come back. No they never do. Sounds like if/when you do leave NY then PLAN B should be your plan. He wants a taste of single life, then show him what life is like with no TRYING! He will enjoy it at first for a few weeks, but then when you insist on NC he will see that maybe the grass isn't so greener. He has said he will definitely see OW and date...that isn't time alone it's time to have fun and play bachelor. Talking to someone so deep in fog is useless as shown by his email to his mother. If he wants to be free, then set him free, but he has to set you free also with Plan B, NC what so ever.

Trying,

Have you told the OW's H about this affair?

UGh, I'm sooo sorry. Although my STBX didn't say those exact things, he might as well have. My STBX was just as angry, rewriting history and being just as thoughtless.

I hate to say it, but you have to just let it happen. I say make the choice yourself. Schedule your flight, and leave. NO CONTACT. You have a big advantage over me, with kids, Plan B is VERY difficult. You can do a true plan b.

Find yourself some things that make you happy and emerse yourself in them.

Trying32, My very first response is to make sure it is written as separation. Why? So he can't say you deserted him! That gives a spouse a lot more leverage in marital assets so you want to be protected.
Secondly, this man is totally in the selfish mode of not giving a damn about anyone but himself.
Just protect yourself in the papers.
And if he's going to be single while he's on this finding himself, then give yourself a chance to find happiness as well since you'll be several states away.
He said you might not allow his dating? LOL Like he cares what you think!
Good luck. LouLou

Trying -

I think you're being fed a load of bollocks here. Let me help translate for you:

"I need space" = "I want to be with OW, and it would just be so much more practical and easier if you would bugger off to Florida"

"Everything felt wrong for years" = "this is how I will justify my behaviour. let me twist and turn and re-write our shared history a bit"

and so on.

Look, his affair is still going and he (for the moment) shows 0% committment to you and your marriage. How long has that been going on? Can you carry on plan Aing? You can continue whilst separated. But if you're fed up, then go to plan B.

N

Very interesting,

I remember reading somewhere on the website that Dr. Harley wrote when a S says they want to move out, 9 times out of 10 it is to be with the OW.

He sounds like he wants to test the waters. He has this fantasy of what it is like to not be M and he wants to live it out.

What person hasn't had thoughts aobut...what would it be like to have not M...not so much this person, but being M itself is a big step.

I wish there were a Wahhhh emoticon, because that's what I want to do sometimes when a WS starts saying things like "I want to see if I'd be better off without you".

Excuse me? You'd be better living alone without the love, caring, and warmth of another human being? Or does he find it tough to have to take into consideration the needs of another human being...more like it.

Sorry I'm a little riled.

It's been awhile since I've heard such a load of C$%p. He should have just written. I would like to be selfish for awhile, I find it tiring be a mature adult and I want to regress into me-mode for awhile. I know trying will take me back and I will feel no repercussions for my actions because I am so special and everyone loves. If they don't forgive me it is all their fault...

Oh Trying! Of course he's questioned your marriage every week for the past five years! Haven't you? Hasn't everyone? If I had a print-out of all my thoughts over the course of a week, of course there would be a few that would question just about anything! That's 100 percent normal!

What he's doing is putting a lot more weight on what was probably a few weekly (and weakly) thoughts to justify the actions he's now taking.

He keeps emphasizing "on my own" "my own decisions" "space for myself" -- but of course this is baloney. If he's in contact with OW, he's not a free agent making decisions. Testosterone is. And all that stuff about no future with her is a smokescreen, meant to deceive himself, mostly.

Thanks everyone for your quick responses!

Melody - I wanted to answer your question. OW's H knows all about the A and has agreed to an open M as long as OW stays for their kids. So, no help there.

AMMartin - I do believe he currently sees a future with OW is not realistic. He'd be taking on a high school educated woman with 3 kids and have to move to MN. My H is used to the income of two people with graduate degrees and no children (a fair amount of disposable income). He's become a little too accustomed to the finer things in life to forgo all that. Of course that doesn't mean he can't still screw around with her, especially since her H has basically given his ok (loads of sarcasm there).

StillHere - From your signature it looks like your H left, you went Plan B, and he ended up coming back. Can you tell me a little more about that?

It sounds like everyone is pretty much saying the same thing. This will be my Plan B. I have read that Harley said a Plan B is usually necessary. I was hoping of course that I wouldn't have to go that far.

So all the stuff about being unhappy for the last 5 years and how he married me when he shouldn't have is all just fog talk?? I guess I'm just scared that that is really the way he feels. I just don't understand how he can say it if it's not what he's been thinking. How can you fool yourself that much?? And yet I remember a card he gave me the end of March, all it said was "My love. My life. Are yours." How far we've fallen in so little time.

My H, too. Large protestations of love a short while before the A.

It all comes down to what a "real" feeling is. We have all sorts of transitory feelings. For example, haven't you had the impulse to kill someone in a moment of anger? Or to make love to a total stranger you see on the bus? Are these feelings "real" because they are powerful, even if momentary? What if they are shallow feelings that pop up occasionally?

I get the feeling that whatever an OS expresses in the fog is a "real" feeling -- an actual psychological event in the brain. But they are reconstructing the past by exaggerrating occasional emotions to make them more powerful and consistent than they ever were. Suppose the "real" feelings -- the most consistent, the most powerful, the most acted-upon -- are the feelings of marital love they now have to deny because they have violated them. Somewhere in there there must be a conscience, after all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by trying32:
<strong>Thanks everyone for your quick responses!

Melody - I wanted to answer your question. OW's H knows all about the A and has agreed to an open M as long as OW stays for their kids. So, no help there.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you hear this from HIS very lips?

If you have to choose between self-respect and your M, choose self-respect because without self-respect you'll lose your M anyway. Let him go. If he wants you back, he'll come back. You don't want to be with a man who will "almost defnitely" see his mistress. They deserve each other.

Melody - As INSANE as it sounds, it is true.

The A came to light the beginning of June. By the end of June, the OW and her H made a "deal" where she would stay in the marriage if he bought her a bigger house and let her spend a week with my H in San Diego when he was there for a business trip. My H agreed to this deal also - however, no one bothered to clue me in.

While they were in San Diego I got suspicious, my sister called OW's house and asked to speak to her, H said she was out of town. I then started trying to get ahold of my H in San Diego at his hotel. The OW's H was also trying to get ahold of them to "warn" them that I was onto them. The OW's H actually spoke to my H (the # was on the cell phone) and apologized to him for "letting the cat out of the bag" and offered to call me back and lie to me about where the OW was (my sister didn't leave a name so why he thought I would buy that I have no idea).

A week after coming back from the San Diego trip and the week before moving into their new house, the OW started saying she wanted a D. Last time she started threatening this, her H agreed to the deal above. So she starts threatening again and the deal they come up with this time is that she can see my H once a month. I believe this to be true because the H actually came up with guidelines for it: she had to go to NY, my H was not allowed to go to MN, my H was never to meet her kids, my H was to pay for all the airfare (OW's H refused to pay because he said it would be taking food out of his kids' mouths), and this deal was only good for my H and not for anyone in the future.

So, as disgusting and unbelievable as all of the above is, I am quite sure the OW's H is well aware of everything going on.

Trying -

If I may suggest a direct approach to this? Agree with your husband. Completely. Oh, don't say that -you- want this to happen. But look, he's right about a couple of things in this surprisingly calm message from a man in a very difficult position:

- Only HE can make his choices.

- He is the ONLY person who has to live with those choices for the rest of his life.

- If he questions his faith, HE has to come to his conclusion, ON HIS OWN about that.

- NO ONE can control his actions but him.

Now, do I think you should enable his desire to live out his little fantasy of singleness? Nope! But oh, how certain I am that -you- must be strong in this! One thing that astonished me is that nowhere in his message to his mom was he disrespectful towards you.

Sure, it hurts to read it, but it's NOT ABOUT YOU!!!! It's about him, and he's actually aware of that. So accept it. It's about him, and he may very well destroy your life while it's about him.

GET OUT OF THE WAY!!

Let him self destruct while you're far away. If you've done a really good Plan A, and both your families know it, then accept that his choices are still his no matter how much they hurt you, and step into Plan B.

YOU have enough of a head on your shoulders to plan it out. Don't tell him when or how or anything. Just keep doing the PLan A things. CHeerful, busy, meeting needs, no LBing. No crying!!!! (There is no crying in baseball, and there can be no crying here.) No begging. No I love yous. None of that. Be matter of fact: I'm still committed to our marriage, and oh-by-the-way, do you want some chocolate milk? I'm going to make some for myself.

And in your spare time, plan, plan, plan! Get ready to jump! Make sure you land in a safe place, and yes, your parents' place is an excellent idea.

If your husband asks about it, simply say that you're thinking about it and what it would mean. (True!)

And by the way? It's nearly exactly what my WP said. I sincerely wish I'd taken her up on it much earlier than I did. Living a nightmare of pain is not good for either of you. Getting oxygen to both your brains is a really important thing right now. If you disappear completely from your WH's life, you take ALL the pressure off of him. Then he can make the decisions he thinks he wants to make, and he can find out whether they're right for him. Probably they're not, but YOU CAN'T DECIDE FOR HIM.

Oh, and that crap about giving you a chance to save your marriage? That's totally twisted and I hope you know it. But it's also NOT twisted. Sometimes a separation is the only thing that works.

Oh, and when he's ready to ask you to come home? You can spend a lot of time, once you leave, listing the preparatory things you're going to require first.

It'll probably be a long list at first. Make sure someone with a calmer eye looks at 'em before you implement 'em, because there'll surely be some pure punishment stuff in there, too. You've been hurt too badly to fully avoid it.

And take everything he says with a grain of salt. There's truth in there, but it's his truth while he's in a very, very stressed place. No one thinks well when they're under that much pressure, even the best of us.

Wow, teh H is OK with it? Are you hearing this from the H? I know my H tried to tell the OW that we had an open M (news to me).

My Plan B wasn't picture perfect, and our recovery is still fresh. But we have very similar circumstances, and your situation seems much like mine. I hope you can get something from this.

After D-Day I found this site and completely turned around my behavior, I had been LBing BAD for years (nagging, angry outbursts), which doesn't excuse the A, but sure made it fertile soil for one.

Things got better for awhile but as a month grew into two months something was happening, his withdrawal seemed to be getting WORSE! I asked him one day how often he thought about OW, he said "only about once a day" Ugghhh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Finally in a fit of rage (I know, not the right way to do it) I told him he didn't act like he wanted to be M and I wanted him out. The next day he moved out his clothes and moved into an apt behind his friend. I think he moved his clothes partly in rage, and partly because he thought I would throw them on the lawn (what his mom did to his dad in their D). I'm glad he did too, because in fits of rage in the past when I demanded he leave, I always took him back after less than 2 days. You see lying and withholding had become such a pattern for him it was like our M was eventually going to end in an A.

He seemed anxious to leave, like he wanted to. I thought that was odd. Don't think he had been in contact with OW this whole time (he had sent her a N/C email after D-Day). But we depended on him to watch the kids. What makes my situation unique is he's a stay at home Dad. We worked it out that he came back every morning and watched the kids until I came home, then he left. He left on a Friday and I saw him Sunday. He had written a very nice letter that he wanted to come home and was sorry for hurting us. I said we need to live apart for at least a month to see how things go. That night I got on the Instant Messenger, knew OW's name and his...they were both on at the same time. I sent him a message and her a message. I wrote to her (but she didn't reply, "I think, or rather I know he is lying to both of us". She bopped off, and he and I stayed on and chatted for awhile. I was hurt and disappointed (devastated) and wanted him to call me, but he was afraid to.

For days we communicated via letters, very matter of factly. I'd leave one when I went to work, he'd leave a note when I got home. I wrote a Plan B letter that I only wanted contact with him that way. There was much to work out though. We had planned a vacation we had to work out. I went alone, but because we were going to see his Dad at one point, I invited him to drive down with us (in his car) and he was welcome to visit us during the day his Dad visited us.

He talked with his Dad on the visit and was not helpful to our M. Basically didn't understand why H had told me anything, made H sound like he was foolish for letting me find out. H said he was disappointed in Dad after that. During his "vacation" visit he said he had instant mesaged OW and told her no more contact (again).

We got home and things were moving along, we talked, some, but no progress was being made. We only talked about plans. We never talked about D and I think H always thought he could come home.

It was after one IC of mine that he started getting scared. I started crying and told him that I was worn out and was giving up, not going to try any more. I told him that even though I had been doing the wrong things (LBs) it took quite a bit of effort, and I couldn't keep giving. I think he had always thought he could come home, and was seeing that this could be permanent.

A week past and I wrote him what it would take for him to come home and wrote out 5 things:
Send N/C letter to OW
See a counselor
See a Doctor about anti-d
Be honest and accountable about time and money
Pay more attention to kids and me, spend more tie with us

He got MAD, he said how dare I try to control him. Said he should go to counselor and give them the list and say "fix me". I explained it was his choice, he wasn't happy living with us, and he's not happy living alone. The items I asked for were not BIG things, and things I would expect from a new husband if I were to marry again. No emotion, left it at that. He followed me out to the car (had to go to work) and he said thank you, I will work on these.

That was it, he slowly worked on these, and has fulfilled all these, we started talking more, and he moved back in officially August 1st.

What were the keys? My change in behavior. I gave him the list and never nagged him about it. I asked him every once and awhile if any parts were unclear, or said, "I realize I haven't given enough details and it seems it is up to me to decide whether you come back home, what would you like it to be like for you to come back home..."
And the biggy, and I hate to admit it, the OW rejected him when he went back to her, he said it wasn;t the same talking with her. And maybe in comparison to me in a good Plan A she was no catch anymore.

My suggestion?

Plan A your B*%T off! Let him remember you as the grass is greener girl. I also wouldn't move SOOOO far away. I'd stay close so he'll be afraid of REALLY stepping out, afraid he'd run into you. And then enjoy yourself...remember, no dating yourself, that's too easy to do.

Have you tried introducing OW's H to MB? Sounds like he's grabbing straws, and may not realize that's not the way to go.

A.M.Martin - The OW and her H know about this site. They saw a C twice and stopped going. As far as I know they've done nothing else to try to reconcile.

Here's an update to all the separation stuff...

Friday night, we get on the topic of separation. WH says he just thinks he's going to need time by himself. I ask if he's going to the cottage we rented for Sep 20-27th. He said yes and asked if I was going. I said yes, but I didn't know if he still wanted to since he doesn't like being around me. He said he did like being around me. I told him the other day he told me every day was an ordeal for him. He said because of all this stuff. He said he has fun with me and enjoys being with me. He said we have alot of good in our M, but he said he has convinced himself he doesn't need it. I asked him why he just doesn't ask for a D then. He said because he's convinced himself of alot of things and he's not sure it's true. [I just want to point out here that this was a very calm conversation, there was no yelling or crying or anything like that.]

He also said he doesn't know that he wants a "buddy marriage" and he feels like that's what we have. My response was that almost anyone would tell you that you should have a strong friendship for the foundation of a M, and that I've heard from various people as long as I can remember that the best thing you could do is marry your best friend. I also said M takes alot of work, and maybe we focused too much in some areas and not enough in others (i.e., romance, sex, etc), but that wasn't the way it had to be.

My H met his dad for dinner and drinks Fri night. Before he left we had this interchange. I told him that his talking about a separation and then asking about if I had found a job and trading our car in for a new one was confusing to me because he was sending mixed messages. He stood there a second (he was on his way out the door) and said I guess a part of me doesn't think it (the separation) will be permanent.

So then, he comes home, it's after 11pm and I'm just getting in bed, he's had a couple of drinks. He starts talking about the separation again and he knows if he leaves it up to me to decide when to go, I won't go, so he's going to have to decide. I asked him if we could talk about it later because it was late and I was tired and sick. He said ok, but then continues (he was a little tipsy). Various things he said:

- Him: I'm not a good H. Me: Maybe not lately, but you have been in the past and I know you can be a good one again. Him: But I'll have to be a bad one for a little longer before I can be a good one. Me: You mean asking for the separation? Him: Yes.

- Him (sort of out of the blue): I'm going to have to pretend I don't care. But I do care. But I'm going to have to be an a**hole and be mean and pretend I don't care. Me: Why do you have to pretend? Him: Because I do care, but I'll have to pretend I don't. Me: Why do you have to pretend you don't care? To get me to leave? Him: yes.

These were a bunch of these rambling mini-conversations. I would start to drift off and he would start talking again. At another point he asked if I would be able to forgive him for asking for the separation. He also said he worried that I would hate him for asking for the separation. He also said he got scared I was just going to give up and worried I'd just decide he wasn't worth all this. And, last but not least, he said "I do love you." He hasn't told me that in probably a month.

So, what the heck should I think??? He is absolutely convinced that the separation is what he needs and determined to make it happen. But yet he says stuff that makes it sound like he thinks it will be temporary. I would really appreciate hearing anyone's input on this.

Thanks in advance. Trying.

It's easy. He's addicted. He's desperate to continue the affair. He wants to encourage you to stick around and wait for the end of it, because he knows it won't last.

Well we talked again last night. Separation will start first weekend in October. WH again professed his love for OW. Explained that he doesn't want to be physical and shows me no affection because he feels like he's cheating on OW. Makes me sick.

Told me he only keeps asking me if I've found a job because that's what I'm supposed to be doing with my days. Then proceeded to say that since we're separating I could go anywhere for a job.

Anyway, he's going to use the separation to see if he can convince himself he could be content with me. Nice. I'm sorry this is just venting, but my hope for us dwindles everyday.

Trying.