I understand your POV... but you look at it as OWs are happy causing destruction, and its not always viewed that way. I know you wonder how.

The MM is responsible for his M. Ill assume (for courtesy sake if nothing else) that the Ws here (or BSs since i know its not all Ws) are all decent women. They work hard at their M, they respect their partner, etc.

Unfortunately, this is not always the case. There are abusive Rs, there are Rs where respect is far from present, etc. And other times, its simply hard to let go. While some A's are flings, most of the posters there are not involved in "flings" and they are discouraged by the majority of posters there. Most are in it and stay and cant walk away for the same reasons as the Ws... they love them, they care for them, there are promises by the MM, theyve been given some sort of hope that things will work out if theyll just stick it out and they have plans.

This isnt always the case i understand. And i think everyone there wishes their partner were single. Nobody likes the fallout. Which is i think where the misunderstanding lies.

I dont think i can accurately describe it, and im trying to word this carefully, i dont normally post here, and ahve always discouraged other posters from coming here, i dont want wars to erupt but there is a need from understanding from both sides.

Rain...

Rain, the biggest problem is that WS's distort the facts. They portray their marriage as they need it to be to justify their betrayal. Some do it to decieve and others do it to try to convince themselves it's bad enough so that they can work up the 'courage' to leave. I was the latter. I was hurting and miserable and decided it was the fault of my husband. I cried on the OM's shoulder and he decided I was a poor, neglected, abused housewife who deserved so much more. Noble intentions...distorted view.

The fact was I was hurting and didn't realize it was time for our marriage to CHANGE, not end. We needed to grow as people...and we needed to WORK to grow together, instead of apart. It's easy to grow apart...it takes effort and compromise to grow together.

So I know that many OW feel justified in rescuing their OM or vice versa...but the fact is they are only helping each other to remain stuck as people...and pulling other people down in the process. It's really a horrible thing for one person to do to another when you come to truly understand the life long devestation that occurs because of it.

But thank you so much for your honest viewpoint and sensitivity in how you brought it across!

Thanks hope. And trust me, i know ALLL about WS's distorting things! lol...

There are all types, its hard to put anything under one category. Ive known many people in horrible Ms where respect is unheard of and neither one even knows what it means and yet their M remains infidelity free, and i know people with seemingly wonderful Ms that end up with one (or sometimes both) having an A.

And of course, theres everything in between.

Ill admit, i struggled with a lot of things during my EMR... my MM never gave me the "woe is me" speech. We both struggled with it really. He loved and cared for his wife, and while they didnt marry under ideal circumstances, that was only one small part of the equation. Guess you could say he did the right thing for all the wrong reasons, but it turned out ok in the end. Neither of us wanted the feelings we had, and it took dday to make us walk away from one another. I know he loves his W, and i know hell do what it takes to make it work. Unfortunately, we cant erase the fact that we were really good friends underneath it all.

I truly do think its important for both sides to understand each other. Theeres a lot involved. Theres good M's and bad M's and i think we can all agree that ideally, the MP should end the M before bringing a third party in or getting involved with someone else.

And when it doesnt work out that way, we end up here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

And in my situation, i dont know which was harder... that or knowing that his M wasnt really bad at all, but neither of us could shake the feelings wed been carrying on for so long.

Rain...

Rain, thank-you for posting on the MB site.
I have been lurking at TOW for some time now, mostly because I hoped to gain some insight into my WW thoughts. Here are some facts I have learned from going there:

-The WS does feel love for the OP. We BS don't want to believe that it is love, but it takes more than fog to stay in a R for 10 years.
-WS will do things for and to the OP that they have never done for BS. (My WW drove 100 miles in a blizzard to be with OM for two hours.)
-Sex with the OP is almost always better than with the BS. Much more intense and passionate.
-Many if not most of TOW do not expect that the MM is going to leave his W. Many do not want him to. They understand their position and accept it.
-It can be as difficult for the WS and OP to walk away from the A as for the BS to walk away from the M. Ending the A is extremely painful, and they may never get over the loss.
-If they are able to end the A, most WS would never get themselves into another.

If you believe that I have misunderstood what I have read at TOW please correct me. I need to learn.
MBers, fire away at me.

23, to some extent yes, youve read correctly. Even i understand though that this is not always the case.

But... what i think is important to remember (for BSs and OPs) is when you said "The WS does feel love for the OP. We BS don't want to believe that it is love, but it takes more than fog to stay in a R for 10 years." In some cases yes the WS does feel love for the OP. The same applies to the BS though. One thing a lot of OWs dont like to think about (myself included for a period of time) is that the MP married their spouse for a reason, and i give my MM enough credit to trust that he knows what hes doing. while they got married under less than ideal circumstances, i know that her PG wasnt the only reason. i dont think hes that dumb. I think if theres respect for a person, than that is understood. And i did respect his decisions.

So what im saying is that anytime theres a long term R, it takes some level of love and caring for them to have stuck it out.

YOu also said "It can be as difficult for the WS and OP to walk away from the A as for the BS to walk away from the M. Ending the A is extremely painful, and they may never get over the loss.". And they may get over it. But even if they dont, it doesnt mean the M is worth any less or of any lesser value...

23, i think the important thing to remember is that people sometimes do fall in love. Not all As involve love... but with the ones that do, ive always been a firm believer that there is room for more than one love of your life.

I hope that makes sense, its difficult for me to communicate.

Youre more than welcome to post over there... it seems youre coming along rather well in your recovery. At the very least, you seem like youre doing all that you can.

I hope you get what it is you need to get through this either way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Take care... and my invite is still open... ill protect you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Rain...

welllll here I go...........

the existance of a good marriage or bad marriage is irrelevant in the responsibility we hold over our own actions....

we alone are accountable for our actions...
and we alone choose a path that causes harm to others and ourselves...

the arguement is too gloss over that statement and say "yeah well in a perfect world that's what would happen... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> "

no-one, once the fact is disclosed that the person they are investing energy and emotions with is married
and continues to engage in such activities, is not doing anything else but choosing to engage in actions that cause great pain to individuals...

lots of people infact.. OP/WS/BS
it is a choice each and every moment to stay in that place...

I hold great respect for my own vows...great respect..and for that respect to have value and meaning I then logically must extend that respect towards other persons vows as well...not change the definition to meet my own needs...

There is no mystery on how how one ends up in an affair....it happens because people make the choice for it to happen...and we are responsible for our choices...and each leads to action...even within the emotional tango of love...there are still choices and choosings...

Even when a WS shows the greatest amount of disrepect for their own vows...others still draw and define our their own choices and value system in respecting vows...regardless of what the WS is feeding to others...

there is great unfairness in disclosure of activities/information to the OP while leaving the BS in the dark...and the OP is an active participant in knowledge that holds great power to hurt or destroy that betrayed persons world...

OP know they are emotionally engaging with a married person...
and are literally taking time from that person (BS)without their knowledge...
time is a precious commodity...
just ask a OP who cant' wait to "spend time" with their married person...

...and time spent with a WS by the OP is partaking in extremely disrepectful activity....and is not some non-removed entity...it is the nature of the affair itself...

the actions of a OP in relationship to their involvement with a married person are direct attacks on the BS..who has no knowledge and not given the opportunity to make an educated decision about their own lives....while the OP is "in on things"
ARK

Sorry I have heard that argument before....usually by drug dealers saying its not their fault they don't use the product they just sell it. Its the addicts fault. And "if I didn't sell it somebody else would."

Sorry if you know someone is married and you chose to interfere in that marriage you are at fault. You don't have to be primarily at fault. You don't have to be the biggest offender (The MM or MW) is the biggest offender.

But like the street level dealer you aren't as bad as the drug lord but that doesn't excuse your actions.

Oh boy, too tempting to resist!!! LOL!

Hi Rain,
Welcome to MB and thanks for being civil about what goes on in the TOW board. It is painful but important to hear 'both' sides.

However, this isn't a 2 sided issue. IMHO, it is more like a 3 sided or multi-faceted issue. RE: BS/WS/OP/Children/relatives/friends/work/finances, etc.

Also, an OP is NOT an OP to the OP until they know the WS is not a SP (single person) but a MM/MW (WS). So being generous and even giving the benefit of the doubt to an OP (of being in an R without knowing the true status of the WS) still doesn't paint a good R.

Why? Well because as you mentioned the same illogic and selfish justifications are being give to the BS and OP but here is the big difference. The BS is entitled get angry, frustrated, be hurt, feel betrayed, etc.... but the OP is not.

Why? Because the BS is the married on and the OP is not. Ex: Homeowner vs renter. Homeowner is responsible for the upkeep and financial obligations of the home. All consequences to the home will follow the homeowner for life. The renter is obligated for some maintenance and some financial obligations but if they can move out with short notice whenever they choose. The homeowner can also move out but has to go through a process to ensure the home is properly exited. The OP/renter s/b obligated but is not legally obligated.

So much of the pain seen here is due to those 'obligations' of life connected to a M. When a 3rd party steps in (knowingly or not) and attempts to take advantage of those obligations, then well it should be easy to see where the disconnect, fog, illogic and selfishness creeps in.

In reality, the OP has participated a crime which in some areas are considered illegal. Adultery requires minimal 2 person participation.

IMHO, OPs have rights but not the right to infringe on any M, regardless of the state of the M. Hence when a potential OP sees their title has changed from BF/GF to OP, then the smart thing to do is to change that status. NC (no contact) is the safest way......but in many cases due to the selfish attitude prevailing......many a OP (esp OWs) tend to think that the M rights are theirs and often this is seen by:

1. signing their names as Mrs. MM
2. setting up household w/MM or pretend to
3. having an OC (deliberate or not)
4. insitagtor of conflict between ws and bs
5. claiming 'emotional adultery' when the ws
attempts to return to their family
6. showing up at family/social functions with
the WS
7. making purchases together (misc shopping, buy cars, homes, insurance polices, etc.)
8......

I am sure there is much more.

So the OP gets angry and frustrated when things do not go 'their' way, is that their right?

How should a BS handle these types of situations?

In reality this is what many BS are dealing with here. No one is 'intruding' into the OPs life (most BS don't even have the pleasure or displeasure of personally knowing the OP, yet the OP somehow mysteriously knows the BS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ), still many an OP feels justified in sticking their 2 cents and various body parts into the lives the BS and family then claim it is their right (OP right).

Does the BS bring pain to the TOW board? Is it an invasion of the BS to post their real feelings on the TOW board? Yes, from a OP POV. How does the rest of the world (non-OPs) view this same action?

Does the 'self-centered OP (note: not all OPs who post on MB are like this but OPs display this tendancy - TOW and non-TOW posters), have the right to post on MB type boards? Yes, from ALL POVs. Why? Because that 'freedom of speech' act allows it. But when pain without healing is dragged into places like MB or even into the personal lives of the BS, it is often not welcomed. Is that ok? Well OPs, you should not be 2 faced. Forcing your way (via a WS) into a BS' life is not something to be proud of. So don't act that way.

Rain, this is not meant as a flame on a particular TOW poster. This is a general comment.

Personally I resent when a OP, esp an OW thinks they have rights same as the BS. Well when an OP becomes a MP (married person), then yes they do have those rights with their MP not anyone elses'.

That distinction should never be forgotten.

Of course, this is JMHO.

L.

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Rain said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And i think everyone there wishes their partner were single. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Choosing a single person is one way to ensure a single partner.

Of course that only applies to the OP who initially know the married person is a married person.

Just wanted to say that those of you who posted to Rain are to be commended for not taking the defensive. I was checking out the TOW site and saw a poster with the name of Raindrop and she signed it Rain. Well, basically Rain was saying that we're all a bunch of cold, heartless [censored] and that people shouldn't waste their time over here because we're so wrong in our beliefs. To see for yourself it's under the General forum and it's titled "you're not welcome here". Not trying to stir things up but I just wanted to tell those of you here who have such huge hearts and actually posted back to her, don't waste your time. It's falling on deaf ears.
NL

NL and other MBers who visit/post TOW,

U gotta know some of us to know the real message. As one who used to visit TOW, I can see that angering the BS is a tool the 'cool' OWs use to fuel their hatred. See their A's can't survive alone. Eventually the WS and OP run out of 'staying power' since their's not is a lifelong commitment (some can but not most, even those that can go for decades still have not real commitment, just a lot of lies).

So what is the purpose of degrading MB to the level of the TOW board posters? If Rain or any other TOW'r wants to post like she is scoring flame points and that the MBers are a dumb bunch who she/they can get a rise out of....well.... they are dumber than they look. So it doesn't matter how sincere a TOW poster is. If she is sincere, it will eventually show. If she isn't that will show, even sooner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

See kindness goes both ways. What any loyal OW TOW'r knows is that they are never the true spouse, just the pretend one. Whereas here, we (BS) have the moral and legal right. The TOW'rs only have the immoral and in many cases illegal right.

So what's there to get angry about? I'd much rather let a TOW'r come over, ask a question, give them their answer and then let them 'keep their anger'. Take their anger back with them to the TOW'r board.

I choose not to give them any fuel to keep their gossip forum going. A non-participating BS is probably one of the most feared or hated characters on the TOW board. Why? Because they never know how we think, act or feel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

By the way, it took me a while to get to that frame of mind and well.....it sure is a lot more peaceful than posting on the TOW'r bored!!!

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

I don't believe affairs occur as a result of a bad marriage. I believe affairs occur because of a lack of character. All the justification in the world can't change that fact.

I have been there before, it is not a pretty sight! I just went over there and they are discussing this thread, they see us a desperate and pathetic, IGNORE it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

We have a site here to help each other and build and rebuild marriages, they have a site to support each other in activities that are immoral and very sad. Let them have it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I would recommend that we stay off their board, it's most likely not going to help us to go over there.

Let's put our energies into positive activities and things that will build our marriages and make our families stronger and more loving! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Those who work at rebuilding a marriage and saving a family are not in LALAland (as they say) we are living in the real world and taking responsibility for our lives regardless of the obstacles that we must face.

23down, I'm going to correct you on one statement, thought it might not fit your case.
You said, "sex with OP is always better and more passionate".
Wrong. Statistics have shown when cheaters go in and tell the truth under surveys and counseling. the sex was no where as good as with the spouse.
That said, of course, new person, new flesh, unfamilar territory is exciting. For every man who cheats, his wife could probably find great sex in someones arms besides him if she allowed herself to.
It's not the sex itself, but the newness which we all had with our spouses to begin with. But the bottom line, when it comes right down to the act itself, the majority have said spouse is far better in that area. Why? Because there is a real bond of love, and we also have been together long enough to know our spouses like our own bodies. What pleases and what doesn't.
I'm not just speaking from what My own H told me. Though he did tell me it was a dud with OW he was with only twice.
I'm speaking from research done professionally on many levels.
Of course, there is alway some spouse that abhors sex, doesn't like it, and prefers none of it!
My H couldn't find anyone more passionate than I!
Perhaps that's why is A was so short lived?
Along with finding much incompatibility when finally meeting in person.
A's comprise a lot that has nothing to do with sex. And all the needs being met can be met right at home if they'd cooperate and be open with the spouse. And both work on it together.
Rain, nice of you to come put your input here.Same goes for here in not flaming. I do not visit other sites where OW/OM constantly bash BW's or BH's.
Bottom line is both WS and OP are guilty of sin, and damage that some might prefer a bullet to the pain. So there are enough people in the world to get ones own without delving into marriages.
Of course, this doesn't answer for the jerks and Byt---s that lie about being married.
So some OP are caught up by liars and deceivers. Those I give some consideration to if they immediately run once they know.
Others, well, I won't go there.
LouLou

Ladysing,

Of course we're desperate. We've lost something that's important to us. "Pathetic" of course is an opinion.

Since OPs are smashers -- destroying something of value rather than cherishing, creating, or supporting something (given that As are disposable), they are in the apparently stronger, cooler positions. It's easier to smash a crystal glass than to make one!

But you'll never get me to agree that having a strong valuation for something puts me in a weaker position than someone who doesn't have values. I value the glassmaker above the glass-smasher.

Again, I would question anybody who puts their identity in their fanny. In the end (no pun intended), that's all these folks have in common.

Don't worry about them! Blow them off!

A.M.,
I totally agree! Standing by my values in the face of adversity has only made me a stronger person, I certainly don't see a lot of weak, pathetic posters here, only those strong enough to polish that crystal glass when the water has been muddied...

Have a great week and stay strong!

WOW , I got more responses on this thread over a week end then anyother I ever posted LOL

WELL , I decieded I am a nieve person , thats something I never thought I would say .

I just can't understand even after all the reading hear, there , books ect. (going through it)

1) M sucks get a D
2) No D well communicate
3) met someome tell your spouse, they want to work on it you don't get a D

OP - well feed up call the spouse tell all , I mean it the MM/MW is GOING to get out of M anyway then why would they hold it against you .

I just found in my situation all I wanted was the trueth , YOU with someone tell me , SEE YA LATER !

YES I wanted my M and I would take him back but leave if you want to .

I called OW and sinply put it out there thats what pissed me off back then .
I was honest said, hey if he wants you then all he has to do is get a D , I got kids and bills and don't need the BULL$HIT so $hit or get off the pot .

YES she told me , how he lied and promised and BLAH BLAH BLAH , she cried and all that $HIT .

BUT bottom line if he wanted you and you are so in love with him and didn't do this to be a home recker then YOU should have told him "LOOK ME UP WHEN YOUR D PAPERS ARE THERE SEE YA"

What turned my stomach was a poster on TOW that stated "MM was filing for D but they still had to sneek around cause he didn't want the A to be the thought of the D "

So why didn't you get a D before the A ever happened ? This kills me . And now that he filed who cares , I mean he is aloud to go on with his life .

I just don't see all the confustion , fog , or anything else .

You want to fool around get out of M , ya did it regret it fine come clean and deal with making your M better .

AND I am sorry I don't see the OW/OM side not cause I am a BS but because its not normal in a way .

THEY are M , go away . end .

WELL ya didn't know ok , sometimes I am sure that happens , but for years ??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Why can't you call him at home or 24/7 ?
Why can't he come to every function with you ?
Why do you have to beep/or only call at the office or cell phone .

AND the kicker if they say there separated and have kids why can't you meet the kids ??

AND people who help the A like other freinds they should be hunted down .

WOW I think I got some anger brewing still , I know hard to belive I am in RECOVEY LOL

BUT yes I have gone over all these things with H and to most he gets it .
BUT yes does he still say I shouldn't blame OW .YEP.

HE still says I was the MM and I did this to you and to her ,I lied I broke my vows and I lied to her to protect myself as well .

He takes all the blame . I guess thats great .

BUT I still would like him to see that she is no saint and she manipulated as well , she knew what she was in , and till this day she don't know hes home .

Its the one thing she couldn't handle that he would come back to his W .

WHAT ever ! SICK SICK SICK

Like orchid pointed out OP think they have the "right " well I am sorry I gave my life , bared his children , live in financial mess , do his laundry , run this house , and bend over backward to always make sure his happiness comes first .

If anyone diserves the trueth and respect IT THE SPOUSE .

Ok I am done , just felt like venting again . WOW recovery is hard LOL

Guys, take a deep breath and let the OP's who lurk consider this bit:
"there is nothing flattering about being chosen as an affair partner"

Yes OP's you are better and more desirable, that's why WS's sneak around when they are with you and avoid any place where they might be recognized.

That's why after sex we wanted a shower right away and got away from you and slept back in our own beds.

That's why the promises to you are almost never fulfilled, we lie to you for as long as you are useful and then once the light comes on and we are discovered we drop you and run home where our real life is.

Why is our time together so grand? You are a distraction, a dalliance and an indulgence. We went to you because we were very unhappy with ourselves, used you for a self-esteem boost and then scraped you off.

That's why when you have a bad dream at 3am and roll over to be held you got the pillow or the dog or just a cold spot on the bed where we are not, we were home holding our spouse... and you could not call us because we forbid you to interrupt our lives unless on our terms.

I would not bash the OP's who come to MB to heal from a crummy situation and are sorry for having interfered with someone's marriage.

For the ones who feel like they are smarter, sexier, more desirable? Well of course you are dear, we have no responsibility with you and no real life stuff to interfere with our little masquerade, you are an amusement. A condom is unrolled, used for sex, filled and then tossed in the trash once it's fulfilled it's purpose - kinda like an affair partner.

There is nothing flattering about being chosen as an affair partner - Oh, I am not a pathetic, sad, bitter betrayed spouse, I am someone who was a wandering spouse who got through his personal failings, discarded his OW like a used condom and went back home to give the love, protection and security of real love to his spouse. The silver medal is great in the Olympics, in a 2-person race it loses it's shine... kinda like you do after using you gets boring and your need for real love and caring gets uncomfortable and boring.

...but you just keep telling yourself how special you are and how loved you are, if we were able to fool our own spouses who know us best, how hard is it to fool someone you use for a few hours per week?

I am a FWW, albeit in an EA, so I was briefly "the other woman." It wasn't a title or a role that I relished or was proud of.

I took a stroll over to the TOW board myself just now, and the thread I found most sickening was one in which they were gushing about the passionate weekends spent with the MM's.

Call me puritanical and old-fashioned, or maybe it's just that I am a Christian and knew the EA was offensive to the Holy Spirit...but I was NEVER proud of what I was doing, or even comfortable enough with it to rhapsodize about it on an internet forum. Wow. Incredible.

SINCERE1- thats exactly what I am talking about that made me very ill .

Someone who knows and is actually likeing the role of other women and is laughing at the fact that some BS is out there having it done to them , not choosing it but having it DONE to them .

Like it was mentioned here there are many types of R and reasons (what ever) .

But the knowing feeling good about it burns me .

I do relize that it happens and there are OP's that are truely sorry for it and recognize that it was wrong or they did it and now move one and should not be labled for it .

Just as a WS made a mistake and should not be labled .

Its the other , the ones who enjoy it , take PRIDE in it .