Is it possible to live an absolute life?

Is there anyone here who, for example, has followed all 10 Commandments perfectly to the letter - if you take the 10 Commandments as your moral authority?

Is there any human who has ALWAYS honored their father and mother; ALWAYS remembered the Sabbath and kept it holy; NEVER coveted their neighbor, etc?

I'm curious as to whether anyone believes this is possible, or if anyone has lived this way.

Sungirl,
I don't know if it's possible to live an absolutist life. I was reading your thread and I noticed your signature says Ex-OW. As a BS, I have so many questions that I've been wanting an OW to answer.

First of all do you have an children? And when you were involved with MM did he have childern?

I'm a BS, my WH and I have two children, 4yo son and 7 month old daughter. I've always wondered what the OW thought of if anything, when it came to the kids. I wonder if it bothers her in any way that these kids don't have their dad around. Basicly because of her.

I was wondering if you can answer any of these questions.

My WH's OW is single, never been married and doesn't have any children. I don't think she understands how much hurt she's causing, especially these kids.

Any insights, if you don't mind?

I wouldn't want to speak for everyone here...but I haven't lived without sinning.

When you say any human...the Bible tells us Jesus Christ was without sin.

I think it's an excellent goal to make one's choices to be of the best and most moral, harming no one else. Making restitution and showing contrition when you know you have harmed someone else and not continuing or excusing that behavior.

sungirl,

Nice to see you again.

From a fellow X-OW...easy answer: quite simply no. No, no, no. You are not talking about an absolutist life, you are talking about a sinless life.

That's why we need forgiveness.

However, there are people, here and everywhere, who think that nothing they ever have done or could do is as bad as committing adultery. So on that score we will remain, uh, tainted.

But that's okay with me. God will judge me, and that's all that matters.

<small>[ September 22, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: terminator ]</small>

Don't you mean "perfect" life? I don't know what an "absolutist" life means. But no, no one is perfect.

STBXW

I will be glad to answer your questions - any questions you have.

I have been betrayed and I have been the OW. In both cases I now realize the behavior of the person cheating was totally and completely his responsibility. The man who betrayed me did NOT betray me because of OW! He did not lie to me, cheat on me, decieve me, etc. because of her. It took me a long time to understand that.

As an OW, of course I felt a great deal of responsibility towards his children - more than I felt towards his wife. You can flame all you want, but that is the truth in my case. I wasn't at all happy with the lies and the deceit, but at the same time, knowing he was lying and deceiving another woman was not enough to stop me from loving him or to break my emotional bond with him. I posted about that in another thread.

My MM was more devoted to his children than to his wife. He was not devoted at all to his wife and they are divorcing. But I can probably count on one hand the times he spent with me rather than with his children.

It was one of the things I loved about him, of course. He took his role as father very seriously. He lived the double standard of every MM who believes he can cheat on his wife and still remain a committed father - that all blew up in his face. He's getting a divorce and won't be the same house with his children, even though that was what he wanted.

If you are asking - How COULD you be such a horrible person to sleep with a man who had little innocent children at home - I can't answer that in any way that will make sense to you, so I won't try. I loved him. No matter how many of you tell me that it wasn't really love, that I only saw his good qualities (I WISH!), that it's not REAL love, etc... I loved him deeply.

<small>[ September 22, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

sungirl, can you explain how all this relates back to your initial question asking if it is possible to live a perfect life? I am not catching the connection here.

Sungirl,
You ask a question that so many of us would just love to offer an answer for, but I think Melody is on the right track...You're really seeking answers to something else. Please share what's really on your mind and we might be able to give you something with real meat on the bone.
Low

Hi. I am sorry it took me so long to come back.

I think very hard before posting here and I wanted to make sure I knew what's on my mind before continuing this thread.

I'll say what's on my mind, knowing beforehand that there are no 'real' answers.

Last week I was in the supermarket. There was a woman with two kids. They started to run around a bit so she pulled them to her and smacked them so hard people's heads turned, totally stunned. The kids cried and she smacked them again. This time they quieted themselves down, clearly out of terror. I saw she wore a wedding ring so she was married.

Two days later I was in the laundromat and I heard a woman calling her son, who was about 8, a retard. She said "only a retard like you would do something that stupid!"

Things like this get me to thinking. This is an infidelity board and the topic is infidelity. Obviously the pain associated with infidelity is tremendous, and affairs have deep consequences for everyone involved.

These women who smack their kids and call them retards might be held in the highest of esteem by their community, as long as nobody sees that behavior. Maybe their close circle condones doing things like that to innocent kids.

If either of their husbands were caught in affairs, and neither the husband or the OW treated innocent children like that, the husbands and OWs would still be made into demons, somehow, (and this is conjecture but it's on my mind), while these women could stand up in church and proclaim that they are righteous and good because they have not strayed from their vows.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how, and why people judge some things so harshly and other hurtful, destructive behaviors are let go.

Like I said, I know I'm on an infidelity board and therefore the topic is infidelity, but I can't for the life of me see how the damage of infidelity is somehow WORSE than the damage being done to those children, yet why people suffering in the pain of infidelity seem to make IT the most gravest sin and transgression of all.

Please remember that I was betrayed by a man who I believed to be my life partner and he is now with OW, years later, married to her and happy. I know about the pain of betrayal.

I hope this opens a discussion rather than a horrible argument. I know there are very smart and thoughtful people here.

I don't think anyone who is in the habit of making a public display of themselves in such manners are held in high esteem.

I think you need to forget about the past and move along with the new days...

Experiences are good and bad. If you never knew the bad you would not realize how good the good is.

Nothing is absolute in this life, except we are born and we will die. But what we put in between is up to us...and hope for the best, work for the best.

What do you want Sungirl?

People shouldn't smack their kids around.

People shouldn't cheat on their spouse.

I wouldn't approve of someone beating their kid.

I wouldn't approve of someone cheating on their spouse.

I don't see how comparing bad behaviors proves your point. They are both bad. I don't believe MB principles support child beaters. Lovebusting is always negative no matter who one uses it on.

GQII is part of the Infidelity Forum and so we focus more about the ramifications of infidelity, including the OP, rather than child-raising, though parenting issues may also be raised because of separations and marital/familial assets being used to further the EMA with the OP.

So to use your example of behavior with children, which would be worse, the WS abandoning the child to go live with the OP or living with the child and beating them?

Hopefully you see both weigh in on the side of negative behaviors with children and it is difficult to determine WORSE.

You say the MM you were with wanted to be with his kids, but he gambled that away when he had his affair. Living with his kids wasn't important ENOUGH. He chose to jeopardize his living with his kids.

Affairs have natural consequences, and the loss of an intact family may be one of those consequences.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how, and why people judge some things so harshly and other hurtful, destructive behaviors are let go.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Child abuse is wrong and should be judged harshly. Adultery is wrong and should be judged harshly. All the child abuse in the world will not justify adultery and all the adultery in the world will not justify child abuse.

One has nothing to do with the other and it sounds like you are scrutinizing the behavior of others in order to avoid taking accountability for your own.

You are saying that since some women get away with child abuse, therefore, adulterers shouldn't be judged. WRONGO. Both are wrong and in a decent society, that can differentiate wrong from right, they should be judged. Two wrongs never make a right.

Nor is it wrong to judge right from wrong. A free people have to know the difference and have the courage to openly identify evil. Otherwise evil prevails. Remember, our prisons are FULL of people who cannot judge right from wrong.

Good morning.

Never had I said that:
"since some women get away with child abuse, therefore, adulterers shouldn't be judged." You are ascribing thoughts to me that I have never stated.

For those of you reading this thread:
Are there passages in the Bible that inform us not to hit our children? Since I am not a Bible Scholar, I don't know that answer.

I do know there is no commandment stating: Thou Shalt Not Physically Harm your Children.

I also, quite honestly, don't know of ANY law anywhere that states: Calling your son a retard is child abuse. I think if I were to call any child abuse authority and report either of the cases, I would be told it is well within the rights of these parents to engage in this behavior, even though I might disapprove. Yet some people might see it as child abuse.

If you think I am trying to deflect the focus from infidelity, that's not my intention. I AM moving forward in my life, and this is how I'm doing it. All of these questions, for me, have everything to do with infidelity, yet I'm attempting to put infidelity into a broader perspective.

I have a coworker who is quite a few notches up the ladder from me. A few months ago I noticed he was acting strange - depressed, moody. One day we found ourselves leaving work at the same time. As we left the building I asked him what's wrong. He blurted out - I just found out my wife has run up $50,000 in credit card bills and she never told me. He said he felt so helpless and betrayed. Knowing what I know about listening to married people's problems, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , all I said to him was - Get to counseling immediately. Right now, before you do something you'll regret. He answered - "she won't". I turned my corner, end of conversation.

Last week he wasn't at work for two days. By the end of the week, I found out that he had a two week affair, was busted, and was, of course, going through hell at home.

The office is buzzing about his affair. But nobody knows that he had also been betrayed. He is the bad guy.

I'm not trying to justify his affair. I'm looking at a situation thinking - wow. His physical betrayal of his wife is so TANGIBLE and PALPIBLE to people, but there are so many other forms of betrayal as well. Why do we jump so quickly and so hard to condemn the infidel, almost gleefully, like a rabid crowd going after a kill?

To the person who said that all of this should be judged harshly, well, my conclusion after everything I've been through is this:

these people need to be loved. They need to be loved, loved, loved, loved, in their moments of deepest pain. I'm sure the mother who is smacking her child knows no better. She needs to be taught by someone who can reach her. The woman who called her son a retard may have heard that from her own mother or father. They need, in my opinion, COMPASSION, along with all this "harsh judgement". The woman who ran up the debt obviously has a real problem. She needs treatment, like Debtors Anonymous. And the guy who had the affair, well obviously he and his wife need counseling, but at this point, I wonder if the focus would be ONLY on the affair rather than on all forms of betrayal that took place?

Thank you for engaging me, if you've made it this far.

To WFLR-

I do know what I want. Thank you for asking. In the past few months I have been enjoying life tremendously. Being on both sides of betrayal taught me more about humanity than I can ever explain. Who knows. Maybe one day I will.

It is true that folks who have had spouses that got into affairs, are naturally going to be ticked off. And if you read about affairs, lots of them are done within/against a marriage that is in very good shape....So, the rationale is going to be varied as to why they did it.

I think that a huge lack of knowledge and the desire to cross the line and keep a secret is big in this behavior. And when or even if it is found out, there is a need to explain to their own married partner and the need to show remorse and to see if it will work after all of that is out in the honest open. Forgiveness may be the most difficult thing that a spouse needs to pull out of their being. How do you do it?

And Jesus did say, Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. And no one threw any stone at Mary Magdelene. But through that beginning of understanding, Mary Magdelene was able to change something deep within herself. She learned a love of a more deep and everlasting kind of love. Jesus showed mercy and compassion. And it is the root of forgiveness and of repentance of our mortal sins.

We have all sinned, either with our bodies or our minds. It is a sin either way. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor or any of his belongings, period.

As far as children and rearing of children, our society and other societies are probably realizing the impact of harsh words and/or behaviors toward our children. If we wish for a world of peace, that is a pretty good place to start...at home with your own spouse and children.

Love is in your heart and how you behave reinforces what you are made of. And lots is trial and error. You may say or do something in poor taste, but you need to be able to recognize it as such. Yes, Sungirl it needs to be taught and shown sometimes, doesn't always seem to be natural for some families. Alot boils down to what way you were brought up, family values that were instilled in you along the way.

But the story of compassion, understanding, forgiveness..even to your own self..is a good one. Jesus is an example that seemed to not be biased by predjudice of any kind... He knew people needed to be taught. The world knows of him as a great teacher. I have to agree 100%.

And we are lucky if we can always keep learning in this life of ours. Appreciate and give respect for understanding, and compassion and patience for others. It is big.

WFLR-

I'm reading a lot about Mary Magdalene right now. Hmm. Any wonder why I'd be attracted to her story?

There is a lot of research right now presenting interesting perspectives on her life and her relationship to Jesus. I'm fascinated.

I feel like my life has been a several-year long course in the lessons of forgiveness. I had no idea what that meant when xBF betrayed me. As one of my favorite authors wrote: "If you don't have something really big to forgive, how on earth do you think you can learn the lesson?"

Thanks. See ya later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
Good morning.

Why do we jump so quickly and so hard to condemn the infidel, almost gleefully, like a rabid crowd going after a kill?

To the person who said that all of this should be judged harshly, well, my conclusion after everything I've been through is this:

these people need to be loved. They need to be loved, loved, loved, loved, in their moments of deepest pain. I'm sure the mother who is smacking her child knows no better. She needs to be taught by someone who can reach her. The woman who called her son a retard may have heard that from her own mother or father. They need, in my opinion, COMPASSION, along with all this "harsh judgement". The woman who ran up the debt obviously has a real problem.
Thank you for engaging me, if you've made it this far.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are condemning the wrong thing here. It seems you are saying the real sin here is harshly condemning adultery, instead of the adultery itself. That is sort of backwards, wouldn't you say? There is absolutely nothing wrong with condemning evil, silence only encourages it.

Nor is it "loving" or "compassionate" to ignore or minimize wrongdoing. There is no virtue and nothing "loving" in assisting others in evading the consequences of their actions.

Again, our prisons are full of people who can't judge right from wrong. A free people can't remain free if they can't. OR WON'T.

People shouldn't be scared off from calling evil evil by silly epitaphs like "judgemental" and "rabid crowd going after a kill." Calling evil evil is not evil, adultery and child abuse IS evil and there is no virtue in hiding that fact.

Forgiveness is also necessary for those who ask for forgiveness and are truly repentant, not those who make excuses for themselves. Just ignoring someone's evil behavior [especially when they have no remorse] is not the same as forgiveness. Repent means to turn AWAY FROM and understand that the act was wrong. Its pretty hard to believe that an adulterer is repentent when they are making excuses and reaching to make silly moral equivalence arguments rationalizing evil.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> feel like my life has been a several-year long course in the lessons of forgiveness. I had no idea what that meant when xBF betrayed me. As one of my favorite authors wrote: "If you don't have something really big to forgive, how on earth do you think you can learn the lesson?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you are having trouble forgiving others? Or are you having trouble demanding it from others? If its the latter, I can certainly see why.

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Sungirl you asked:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are there passages in the Bible that inform us not to hit our children? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jesus talked very strongly about not harming children or leading them into sin.

Mark 9:36-37
[Jesus]took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."

42-48
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into thell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."

Strong stuff.

This sounds like a classic argument of judgement vs. mercy.

The first error we've made here is in assuming that these two concepts represent opposite ends of the same scale...they don't.

I am a Christian, so I see things from that perspective. The crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is a supreme example of both perfect judgement AND perfect mercy.

Sin MUST be judged. The judgement of God is quite different from the judgement of man. Unfortunately, the imperfection of humanity does NOT relieve us of the duty to attempt to divine right from wrong and establish suitable societal and civil consequences. In the real world, different transgressions have different consequences and should be responded to in different ways.

Much of what you have described is the tendency of people to derive a sense of satifaction in seeing others fail and suffer. You are right to identify this as bad behavior. BUT, it doesn't make the adultery any less of a sin. Two wrongs don't make a right and certainly don't justify a case for moral relativism.

On the other hand, mercy is the part of us that says "Even though you have failed, I love you and want to see you heal". Mercy doesn't deny the sin. Mercy acknowledges the imperfection of the sinner and seeks to restore that person.

I was an adulterer. I committed a sin with great consequences. No one would deny that. I deserved to be judged for what I did. Now, as a repentant person, should I be forgiven and restored? Certainly. My wife extended mercy and love to me in ways that I never imagined anyone could. She defended me when others tried to write me off.
Of all people, my sin hurt her the worst, yet she loved me enough to have mercy on me.

I find that knowing there are people in this world who will never forgive me (the OW's ex-husband) is painful. Who knows? Maybe some day he will. But if he never does, that is my burden to bear and I have no right to whine about people being judgemental or unforgiving.

We deserve judgement for what we do. We should rejoice when people show us the gift of mercy.

Oh, and to answer the question you pose in the title of your post...the answer is absolutely YES.
I don't think that any of us have a choice in this. We all must establish some code of behavior within ourselves. These become our absolutes. We become a "law unto ourselves". Now, can a naturally born human live a perfect absolute life? I would have to say NO. We violate even the internal codes we set for ourselves.

The apostle Paul addresses this quite well in the book of Romans. Even if you're not a Christian, I'd encourage you to read through his arguments carefully. The bottom line is that none of us are perfect...and none of us have any excuse for it.
But the story ends well...God has extended mercy through His Son, Jesus.

Hope this helps,
Low