Pepperband - you asked me which parent they represent.

Both, actually, in different ways, but mostly my father. More specifically, they represent my relationship with my father, which is different.

Get it?

Oh gee. Is this therapy all over again? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have a good one, Pepperband. Hope all is OK.
And thank you. - Sungirl

For when you get back, Pepperband.

You said

I sense a good person inside of you, trying to find some way to make her mis-deeds less horrible .... because you cannot bear to accept that the pretty love A-thing was poisonous to another human being.

Pepperband. How many times must I repeat this?

I was betrayed. I suffered the pain. I lived through feeling like my heart would explode. I lived through not being able to breathe for months. I felt my body light on fire with my first morning breath. I felt that stabbing, awful knife of jealousy thinking of them together. I felt the forceps on my heart.

I know the ugliness of the effects of an affair on the betrayed person. I know them first hand.

What I am trying to convey here, and I'm not sure it will ever be heard, is that my emotional attraction to MM became STRONGER than that knowledge.

There was no denial. There was no hiding behind the idea that the discovery wouldn't be painful.
I didn't "de-ugly" the effects of the affair on his wife.

Am I willing today to make the entire affair ugly?

No. That's where I depart from marriagebuilders. I do not.

Do I understand why I didn't feel an affinity toward his wife?
Yes. And I'll be happy to discuss it if you ever want to.

Sungirl,

As a WS, I also know that there were some beautiful aspects to the relationship I had with the other woman. If there hadn't been, it wouldn't have been so hard to let her go. It's not helpful to remind the betrayed of this. One of their greatest insecurities is that we will carry some kind of torch for our lover the rest of our lives. Memories of some good moments are not torches, but should always be thought of in the context of the devastation that was wrought.

Try this analogue:
A daylily is a beautiful plant. But what happens if you carry that daylily into a room of people who are mortally allergic to it? The beautiful becomes deadly. If we survive, we will never forget the flower's beauty, but neither will we forget how dangerous it was.
Eventually, we learn to cultivate our own daylilies that aren't poisonous and every bit and more beautiful.

Low

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sungirl:

MM and I were on the same wavelength about everything. We worked together like two peices of a puzzle. If he needed something I had just thought of it and had already gotten it. At meetings we had the same agendas penciled on our papers. We almost finished each others sentences. We shared common interests. We talked as if we both had known each other since childhood. We had the same sense of humor.

~~~~~

I was wondering, what if this person with whom you shared so many common interests .... what if this happened to be a woman? What would have happened to the relationship? Would you have taken that strong bond to the level of a physical love? This is not a silly question..... I hope you seriously ponder this "what if".... I think it's important.

~~~~

We certainly did not agree about everything, but as the years of working together had thrown us into some pretty stressful situations, we also knew how to scream or throw tantrums or blow up and get over it.

It was no causal flirt I felt all fluttery about and decided to give a roll in the hay. He affected me more deeply than any man I had ever known. It was like this for months and months before I finally did act on my feelings.

~~~~~

So, you had time (months and months at least) to stop yourself before you got into trouble. And you COULD see the A coming. What part of you ignores your own warnings (and why)?

This would have been a good time to USE your values to back away, before your emotional gun was fully loaded and was pressed against your own head by your own hand.

~~~~~

Because once I did, it felt like it was the most natural thing in the world. I could not hold up my walls of right/wrong against the feelings I had.

~~~~~

That's right .... "once I did" .... was too late. You were already holding your emotional gun pointed at your own head. And your emotional needs overwhelmed your sense of right and wrong. In other words, your "taker" was in total control. Your needs and your desires were all that mattered.

~~~~~

I tried for so long and finally it felt like these feelings overpowered any and all mental barriers I had erected and I gave in to them.

~~~~

Wait a minute, you gloss over this part of your A's history waaay too fast to notice the details. "I tried for so long" ..... tried what exactly? Precisely what ACTIONS did you take when you realized you were headed toward an emotional jeopardy?

Who did you ask for help?

Where were your brakes? You say that essentially once the A was moving so fast you were powerless to stop yourself. So, I ask you, where were your brakes before there was runaway emotional chaos?

When do you think it is appropriate to use your moral and ethical safeguards?



Pep

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sungirl:
For when you get back, Pepperband.

Pepperband. How many times must I repeat this?
~~~~~

I donno, how many times must you repeat this? That's up to you.

***(Are you aware of what a really profound question you've just asked?)***

~~~~~

I was betrayed. I suffered the pain. I lived through feeling like my heart would explode. I lived through not being able to breathe for months. I felt my body light on fire with my first morning breath. I felt that stabbing, awful knife of jealousy thinking of them together. I felt the forceps on my heart.

~~~~~

And that painful experience taught you what ?

~~~~~

I know the ugliness of the effects of an affair on the betrayed person. I know them first hand.

~~~~~

Yes, you do. And I'll bet you've been betrayed in some ways other than romantic as well.

~~~~~

What I am trying to convey here, and I'm not sure it will ever be heard, is that my emotional attraction to MM became STRONGER than that knowledge.

~~~~~

What's that? I'm a little hard of hearing ... Could you repeat again for my old ears <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

~~~~~

There was no denial. There was no hiding behind the idea that the discovery wouldn't be painful.

~~~~~

There was no denial about how hurtful this was going to be for you and for others. Yes, I do hear you Sungirl. I do. You went full steam ahead knowing there would be yet another broken heart waiting for you.

~~~~~
I didn't "de-ugly" the effects of the affair on his wife.

~~~~~

OK .... we agree that heading toward something she realizes is ugly .... is not enough to stop Sungirl .... but do we know why this is so?

~~~~~

Am I willing today to make the entire affair ugly?

~~~~~

Who cares ..... ugly A or beautiful A ..... the results are the same. Broken hearts. "Forceps on their hearts" ... and on yours.

~~~~~

No. That's where I depart from marriagebuilders. I do not.

~~~~~

OK .... the entire A was not ugly. Same results anyway.

~~~~~

Do I understand why I didn't feel an affinity toward his wife?

~~~~~

No, actually, I do not (yet) understand. And, what's more, I don't think you understand either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Are you re-creating some past trauma of yours, and assigning another woman to a role for which you have no feelings of affinity?

You had to de-humanize her existance in order to do what you did .... and that's a very difficult thing to accomplish. It takes a great deal of re-working personal ethics on your part. Some mental manipulation of reality.

To fully feel regret and remorse, you're going to have to give it up. Give up the thought that you do not care.

Quite frankly Sungirl, I don't believe you! I think you care deeply. So deeply, in fact, that it scares you. You feel safer and protected if you pretend she and her broken heart do not matter.

You scare yourself sh*tless.

I think better of you.

Pep

Pep,

I am trying to recall how I FELT when I wrote the following to Sungirl. What my motivator (not motive) was, exactly:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by terminator:
However, there are people, here and everywhere, who think that nothing they ever have done or could do is as bad as committing adultery. So on that score we will remain, uh, tainted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the thing that was mainly on my mind was the issue that people reckon different actions on a scale (judging). I believe that only God is to do that. And that sin, the condition of separation from God, is equal in everyone.

Now. This does not serve in any way to absolve me from the consequences and damage caused by my actions. But I am not going to look to other human beings for forgiveness or absolution. That is always a mistake, a person will most of the time come up empty-handed.

I think this is all to do with my personal experience with X-MM's wife. I agreed to meet with her after she discovered the affair. I do not think she was honest with me about her motives. I think she wanted to do something, anything, to hurt me. That is fine. I deserve it. It appears that she will never forgive me, but I hope she will forgive him. But I also think that from meeting her, and reading here and elsewhere, that adultery IS judged (because of the amount of pain caused) as worse than many other horrible things people do to one another. It's a simple observation that need not be defended or challenged.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> oh ... tainted one ...

My H commited adultery .... and I love and respect him very much. My next door neighbor committed adultery, however, she never made amends, and her REAL sin (to me) was her total absence of concern for the hurt she inflicted on others.....

The sin itself is not what taints us ... it's our attitude about our sin that might.

An absolutely undeniably regretful and repenting heart .... a heart that now feels with empathy the hurt inflicted on other(s) by his/her sin .... and vows to never hurt others in that way ever again .... now THAT'S a person I can trust.

A heart that says "I won't do that (sin) ever again because it caused *me* too much pain" ... but demonstrates little or no concern for the painful consequences others had to endure because of his/her sin .... why trust that person? That person only stops sinning when he/she is hurting, and not before.

"tainted" aren't we all?

Termi, I don't think you have worked out your inner conflict about your own actions yet. And the condemnation you think others may have for you, might be the whisperings of your own inner voice.

Termi ... I said you are a woman of parts, and that makes it more difficult for you to forgive yourself.

Have you begun reading "that" book yet?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At first I felt defensive when I read this. I was happy to read that your husband truly has been repentant. You deserve no less, and it's nice to see this evidence that he values you so much.

I'm sure I haven't worked it all out yet. I may never. There are things I know are unresolved that it would be unhelpful to write here. I disagree that it is the attitude about the sin and not the sin that taints us--that isn't what I believe. It's all the same, there's no sense in separating it. Sin is sin is sin, regardless of the results (relative pain and destruction caused). Nobody owes us forgiveness, least of all God. But He offers it nonetheless because he loves us.

As to whether I would ever have an affair again--of course the answer is no. Why? Well, partly because it was an excruciating experience for me. Partly because it was an excruciating experience for his wife, and for him after he got caught. And partly because it is wrong, a sin against God.

Now. Does it serve any purpose for me to offer a weight or percentage for each reason? Here on earth, I could get the gold star for giving most of the weight to the latter. But I don't call myself that good. For me it's sufficient to know that the affair was the reason my head got snapped around to face the right directon--to know whom it is I need to please. And, more importantly, to know what He wants to see in terms of conduct toward others. It's proven I can't come up with that on my own.

I so enjoy your posts. The book has not yet arrived yet, but when it does I have in mind to start some threads so we can discuss it.

edited to remove dup. post

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: terminator ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by terminator:
At first I felt defensive when I read this. I was happy to read that your husband truly has been repentant. You deserve no less, and it's nice to see this evidence that he values you so much.

~~~~~

I am not trying to put you on the defensive. I am sorry if I give that impression.

Really, I think H gradually began to value and honor himself, and therefore his marriage became more valuable to him.

One of the things H said to me during our recovery .... "I had to push God out of my life to have the A." ..... whoa!

Pepperband.
(Hi terminator!)

I don't have time to go point for point with you but I will answer as best I can.

What if he were a woman? Unless she was a lesbian, I would have found a female soul mate. I would have found a friend with whom I am sure I would have built a relationship that would last forever. Most of my friends are women, Pep. Almost all.

What did the betrayal teach me?

At that time, as opposed to later, it taught me that some people are good and some people are bad. I was very black and white. He and she were horrible, I was the good one. I had not done THAT.

It taught me that things can change on a dime, and that I needed to develop a support group to help me learn how to live differently.

It taught me that my then partner was not the man I thought he was.

It taught me that I hadn't started to develop a deep relationship with a higher power, but had made the relationship my higher power.

How did I try to keep myself from getting involved with MM?

With mental acrobatics. I already posted this. I told myself that I would not be an OW, I was not capable of such a thing and slipped headlong into denial about the feelings I felt.

I was the good girl. So the true answer is that I hid behind my holier than thou morality, and didn't do a DAMNED thing about self-honesty.

I didn't face my own feelings. I let them simmer and simmer, the whole while saying - oh, I'd never do such a thing.

How could I depersonalize his wife?

Yes, I recreated a childhood scene. She was my mother. I projected a whole lot onto her and dealt with that in therapy.

Ethics - yes, my feelings overrode my seemingly impeccable code of ethics. Totally and completely without a doubt. Mea Culpa to the 1000th degree.

That will be interpreted as being selfish. I have been told so many times that being an OW is the most selfish act.

The interesting thing, is that I didn't have a "self" to be selfish about. My emotional needs took control. That is very true. But it was only as I built a self that I was able to take control back from them.

So actually, I had to learn how to be selfish in order to end my relationship with him.

Interesting quote about your husband. I found God, deeply found God, while I had my affair.

Will only be here for a half hour. If you are still interested in this discussion, shoot.

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

Terminator- beautiful post!

What book, if I may ask?

Pepperband, you said:
To fully feel regret and remorse, you're going to have to give it up. Give up the thought that you do not care.

I suppose it sounds like I don't care. I posted that I did not feel an AFFINITY with his wife, but I cared.

If I hadn't cared, why would I have spent so much effort trying to leave the relationship? Wouldn't I have sat back and let it ride a natural course?

Of course I cared, Pepperband. And I feel great remorse for the pain the affair caused her, him, and me. There is not one moment in my life that I ever feel "good" about engaging in hurtful behavior, no matter what it is. I cared.

As I've explained, my caring about her did not supersede my emotional connection with him, or how that affected me at the time. At the time, there was nothing that superseded that - no code of ethics, no commandments, nothing.

If he had been single, I would have been gazed on with smiles by people who recognize a woman and man in love. If he had been single, all of those emotions I felt for him and with him would have never been questioned by anyone.

The only question that would have mattered would have been - do you make a good match?

Because he was married, the questions and the consequences were different. But the feelings weren't.

I have to go. With love - Sungirl.

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:

The interesting thing, is that I didn't have a "self" to be selfish about. My emotional needs took control. That is very true. But it was only as I built a self that I was able to take control back from them.

So actually, I had to learn how to be selfish in order to end my relationship with him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Being a "self" is not the same as acting or being selfish ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Interesting choice of words "I built a self" ... sounds empowering.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:

Of course I cared, Pepperband. And I feel great remorse for the pain the affair caused her, him, and me. There is not one moment in my life that I ever feel "good" about engaging in hurtful behavior, no matter what it is. I cared.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well .... howdy Sungirl ..... nice to meet ya!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi Sungirl, Pep:

Pep: I know you weren't trying to put me on the defensive! No, but I felt that way. I think it's because I really would LIKE to be able to say (gold star!!) that I ended the affair mostly for moral or unselfish reasons. But I can't, honestly. So that's exactly where I should be--humble. I don't always like it, but...I see that it's right.

I relate to what your husband said. About having to push God out of his life to keep the affair going. The absence of X-MM and the presence of God is, on balance, the better feeling. It is the feeling of peace, and that was what I told myself I wanted, and now that I've got it I'm not giving it up. Though I miss X-MM. A lot. I should not read any of the TMD threads, they make me crazy when I should be serene...

Sungirl: the book is "Passionate Marriage". I am told it has a lot to say about relationships in general, and the self, and everything important. I have ordered it but it hasn't come yet. You should get it too and join the thread I will start after I have read some of it. I think you have to order it from Schnarch's website.

Take care you guys. THis is a useful thread for me.

LowOrbit -

I wanted to tell you that your daylily analogy hit me very hard. I've been thinking about it since I read it and came back to copy it down!

That, plus Terminator's statement that Life (-)xMM, (+)God is the more peaceful and preferrable life pretty much describe my own feelings and attitudes of coming out of this phase of Betrayed/Betrayer.

Pepperband and Melody, actually, I wanted to write something about honesty.

I lived the effects of not being honest with myself about my own feelings. I also lived the effects of hiding behind my high-horsed attitude of being so much better than someone who hurt me, that I blinded myself to who I really was.

Get that? Who I really was. A human being capable of engaging in behavior I would have sworn to anyone who'd listen that I wasn't.

For me to review my past with honesty, I can not be black or white. For my own healing, and to keep me REAL, therefore CONSCIOUS and fully RESPONSIBLE for my past and my present, I need to honor the beauty of the day lily as well as accept responsibility for the pain it wreaked on those who were "allergic", as well as myself.

One doesn't erase the other.

With love - Sungirl.

Here is my achilles heel .... have at it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Let's talk marriage recovery .... re-building a marriage ....

I can be very patient with hurting people .... I can wait with them and tenderly soothe wounds .... they're hurt.

but .... when ~I think~ that the cause for delay in recovery is obstinate stupidity .... I am so friggin' impatient .... I can hardly contain myself. They're stupid. (judgemental? ..... you bet 'cha)

Why does stupidity bother me so? And how do I know it is stupid obstinate foot-dragging rather than pain ????

I donno how to answer that. I suspect ~stupid obstinate~ when someone seems to really like being in their mess .... and there is no struggle to get out, just vivid and more elaborate descriptions of their mess.

I like the struggle of hurting people getting better. That inspires me.

Terminator ..... I cannot post to TMD cuz I think he's being stupid and he's playing hurt ..... and I cannot think of one single helpful thing to say to him .... (forget about *nice* .... I look for helpful)

I have gotten into trouble on MB when I post to what feels like "stupid" to me in hopes of saying something helpful It never works. .... I almost always blow it. Another case in point .... 8 Time Loser .... I am convinced his is a stupid problem and not a hurting problem ....

I have a problem .... and it's not pretty. I'm a snob.

And some long time BS posters .... I cannot post to them for the same reason. I don't trust myself to say anything close to helpful, because I don't respect the core of their difficulty.

I'm a snob.

THIS is a confession. Mea culpa.

Pep

Pep:

I too have trouble with people who seem to like their mess, or seem to be presenting something false. I can spot both fairly quickly.

What gets me about the 8timeloser and TMD threads is that yes, they are brave to share so completely. It's very personal and compelling. However, I tired quickly of that because the common trait to both was that they cannot, will not face the only fact that matters: that they have to choose one thing and sacrifice another. That is adult life. That means having the OW who is perfect, but being the bad guy to the wife and kid. Or being dutiful to the wife and kid, and cutting the OW out completely.

I have no doubt that what my X-MM wanted, deep down inside, was to maintain the status quo: me and her in his life, for his differing purposes (largely unknown or unacknowledged to even him). He wanted nothing else: not a peaceful, honorable life, or a deeply intimate relationship. At least not concretely. Like these men, he was a mass of romantic/sexual/narcissistic longings and hidden or stifled impulses toward authenticity.

That's the obstinance: refusing to choose. To commit. And that's what makes me really, really mad. I once told X-MM, when the breakup was imminent, that he was either going to have to replace me or start living some kind of honest life. He wrote back: "And those are my two choices?"

Such men need, deserve, and more than earn the boot in the [censored]. It makes me angry that there's some woman (either the OW or the wife) sitting there waiting to "recover" with these types. They'd sit there like Tony Soprano in therapy, a veritable lump, and get absolutely nothing done. (All the while dropping little crumbs to one or both women to sustain that glimmer of hope.) And at my X-MM's age, well, it occurred to me that it was probably too damn late for him.

These practical thoughts frequently trump anything romantic I could conjure. I can't be fooled any more. Too bad I was fooled for so long.

All this is why I can't help on the OW board any more. These things need to end, somebody has to do it. Individuals remain in arrested development, are stunted or destroyed in these things. It's simple, the stories are all the same, but people cling to the details like money. I did too. But once it's past, it's past. I have no patience left.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
I once told X-MM, when the breakup was imminent, that he was either going to have to replace me or start living some kind of honest life. He wrote back: "And those are my two choices?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...... WHOA!

exactly! ..... You're gonna really like PM ....(the book) it's about 2-choice dilemma crucibles, and creating our integrity via our choices.

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />