Yep. It's so hard to face, choices. Especially when the culture we live in encourages people to "choose everything".

About X-MM...I laugh long and hard at the generalization that OW only sees the good side of him. I knew him pretty well by the end. Peter Pan complex, madonna/whore complex, whatever it was...I saw it (and loved him for as long as I could).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you personally use for criteria [to decide what's right and wrong]?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Darned good question, Pep. Over the years, I've built a set of "core values" that I use as my basic guide. For a very long time, they came in the form of three rules:

- Be honest.
- Don't waste resources.
- Take the time to love.

Lately, I'm finding that a fourth rule is extremely important to me:

- Keep your word.

How did I come upon those rules? Well, they're an expression of my own internal sense of what is, and is not, good for me, for the people around me, and for society as a whole.

So, for example: One of our society's traditions is that women aren't normally employed in the scientific and engineering fields. As it happens, however, I have skills and aptitudes that led me into a scientific/engineering education and career. Rather than simply accepting that a societal norm should apply to me (or to anyone else), it's my view that these skills and aptitudes should be used, rather than wasted, even though society may not view it as acceptable.

There are, of course, many more examples of similar thought processes that are a great deal more controversial. In the course of testing society's norms against my own internal standards, I partnered to someone of the same sex for 12 years, brought a child into the world within that relationship, explored polyamory, tried alcohol and marijuana, drove my car 114 miles per hour, and skipped school.

All in all, most of that has worked out all right. I decided I didn't like the effects marijuana or excessive quantities of alcohol had on me; that 114 mph was fun once and once only; successfully conducted a long-term, loving, and very productive relationship; and brought a DD into the world who is an absolute joy.

The polyamory, on the other hand, does not appear to have worked out so well. I have a lot of thinking to do about why that is, and that thinking will have to be in the context of my own ethical and moral framework. I learned early that I don't do well with frameworks imposed from the outside. (Which is unfortunate, because I wouldn't have to make nearly as many mistakes if I were better able to listen to others!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our struggle is at once as an individual and as a member of a group or society at large. I doubt there is an end point for any of us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point. And perhaps one of the things that's missing from my own internal framework is a broader consideration of the secondary harm that can come from a specific action or actions. As an example, infidelity feels absolutely wonderful and right to those who are committing it. There are many, many people (me among them) who have felt that deep sense of rightness about it.

The hard part is looking at the external consequences of the actions and at who will be or is being hurt by it. As I look back on my own instances of polyamory/infidelity, I see that in each case there were tremendous negative consequences. In some cases I was not aware of them at the time, and in other cases I (like so many others caught in the middle of it) just didn't care.

I do care now, a very great deal. And have still not figured out whether I can safely make amends without doing more harm. I suspect that the answer is no in most cases; I've ended those relationships as completely as I can, and I'm just not sure that apologizing to the spouse (where there was one) is appropriate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if it is ever right to judge the inherent goodness of someone .... probably not. All lives have value. I am reminded of that film .... "Dead Man Walking". Did you see that movie ? Amazingly challenging film to process. But if we do not judge the goodness of behaviors, we're in serious trouble. Chaos and madness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't seen the movie, no. I agree -- I'm not going to judge the inherent worth of the person, but when I see hurtful or destructive behaviour, I do judge it. Having said that, I also do my darndest to act on my judgment with compassion as well as honesty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yup (except for the speed limit .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Yep, everyone believes they should be able to drive FAST. Including me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes hurt makes people irrational. It's difficult to speak reasonably when trying to stop gushing blood from an open wound.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't I know it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And my thought is that when one is in that state of hurt, the goal is not judgment or lack thereof, but simply protection and emergency care, whatever that might mean. Figuring out how the wound got made and whether there was a wrong involved can come later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree. Sungirl is making her way as best she can. She has been hurt. She has inflicted hurt. Both need to be examined and processed. Her past is not irrelevant to who she is today .... and she has future choices that can be a gift to the world, and to herself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's true for all of us. Sungirl's ahead of the game (and I'm glad you recognized it) for being willing to think it through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know what, I really do think that an unmarried / never married OW carries tremendous and worrisome baggage with them .... much more so than a married person who cheats. Much more so than an un-married man who cheats.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It took me a while to realize that you were saying that the baggage Sungirl is carrying around is worrisome because of what it does to -her-, as opposed to what it does to other people. Interesting point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sungirl still retains some ways of thinking like an OW. I hope she eventually stops defending her emotionally made mistakes from the past and holds herself to a higher standard. Her inner resources for defending herself from future mistakes cannot be made while she's holding an emotional gun to her head.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure what you mean, here, Pep. What gun are you talking about?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...she needs to construct a more rock-solid moral compass with which she conducts her life. For her sake and happiness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. I read somewhere (probably here, in fact) that the Dalai Lama said that the road to happiness is leading an ethical life. I suspect that that's true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For some time, she should not trust her emotional decisions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't that true for everyone? Emotions are dangerous things and can often lead us astray, it seems to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...learn how to make moral judgements, and feel good about it... the depth of compassion is amazing .... but the acceptance of the sin being wrong was absolute.[quote]

Well, yes. We all learn this over the course of lives lived. There is a question in my mind -- is it better to live life entirely by "the rules" without ever questioning them, or is it better to question them, make mistakes, learn from those mistakes, and live an ethically accurate life within the boundaries wrought from a life of mistakes and learning from them?

I really don't know.

[quote]I do appreciate her as a lovely young woman who has wasted her gifts of love twice on undeserving partners.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you know the seeds were wasted simply because they seem to have been sown on barren ground?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SUNGIRL .... I love you. You are my sister. I care what happends to you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yay! Me too. For everybody.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just J:
Darned good question, Pep. Over the years, I've built a set of "core values" that I use as my basic guide. For a very long time, they came in the form of three rules:

- Be honest.
- Don't waste resources.
- Take the time to love.

Lately, I'm finding that a fourth rule is extremely important to me:

- Keep your word.

How did I come upon those rules? Well, they're an expression of my own internal sense of what is, and is not, good for me, for the people around me, and for society as a whole.



When do you allow yourself "exceptions" to your rules?

And ... what do you do when your rules have conflicting values? Example:

Don't waste resourses .... and take time to love.... "but"

When would you decide there was no more time to love because you felt it was wasting your resources?

How do you make these priority decisions?

~~~~

In the course of testing society's norms against my own internal standards, I partnered to someone of the same sex for 12 years



Seems like a very long "test" !!!



~~~~

brought a child into the world within that relationship, explored polyamory, tried alcohol and marijuana, drove my car 114 miles per hour, and skipped school.


I'm sitting here laughing .... feeling DEEP sympathy for your MOTHER!!!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

~~~~

I learned early that I don't do well with frameworks imposed from the outside. (Which is unfortunate, because I wouldn't have to make nearly as many mistakes if I were better able to listen to others!)



Again, your poor MOTHER!
I have some stuff to do .... back later.

Pep

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Well, mom didn't know about most of this stuff. On the flip side, I was one of those straight A, National Merit Scholar, go to a great college and grad school, get a good job, have a stable family, buy a house with a picket fence sorts of people. I just kinda, err, well, did it in ways that are rather unconventional. (Go read my thread, you'll see what I mean.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And I have to say that when you're listing 36 years worth of adventures, well, it can sound like a lot. But then again, radical honesty also leads me to note that I:

- Tried pot twice, fifteen years ago.
- Overindulged in alcohol three or four times, fifteen to twenty years ago.
- Drove my car 114mph ONCE (which was quite enough!) fourteen years ago.
- Skipped school easily because I was one of those "good kids" who could walk the halls without a hall pass.

Etc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And yeah, I really shouldn't call my marriage a "test." I'm just saying that it breaks society's standard rules on what is, and is not, acceptable. Which is, of course, why Steve Harley refused to counsel me. Then again, I got Cerri instead, and I like her bunches, so I'm not complaining all that much.

Still, I'll pass your condolences on to her when she gets here tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She'll probably laugh her butt off once she gets done saying something like, "Yeah, well, you had absolutely no understanding of limits when you were a baby, either, you nut! You're STILL climbing on things without a care in the world for how far down it is!"

(It being my 36th birthday tomorrow, she's sure to reminisce about -something- when I see her...)

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our struggle is at once as an individual and as a member of a group or society at large. I doubt there is an end point for any of us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Good point. And perhaps one of the things that's missing from my own internal framework is a broader consideration of the secondary harm that can come from a specific action or actions. "

Do you consider yourself a lesbian? There is a book written by Tammy Bruce ( a well-known lesbian) which addresses some of these issues .... the morality of society as a whole. She is one smart cookie, and a terrific writer. Her book (the one I'm refering to) is "The Death Of Right and Wrong" .... search it on Amazon to get an idea of Tammy's critical thinking skills.

If you do read this book, be sure and read the forward .... her personal story as a young woman with her first lesbian lover .... a very famous TV actor's wife ... it's a jaw dropping story.

Tammy makes me think long and hard when I read her.

She used to have a radio show out of Los Angeles ... and I enjoyed her wit and her sharp mind.

Anywho .... I think that standards are important. personal and social.

Pep



<small>[ October 03, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong>Pep:

I too have trouble with people who seem to like their mess, or seem to be presenting something false. I can spot both fairly quickly.

What gets me about the 8timeloser and TMD threads is that yes, they are brave to share so completely. It's very personal and compelling. However, I tired quickly of that because the common trait to both was that they cannot, will not face the only fact that matters: that they have to choose one thing and sacrifice another. That is adult life. That means having the OW who is perfect, but being the bad guy to the wife and kid. Or being dutiful to the wife and kid, and cutting the OW out completely.

I have no doubt that what my X-MM wanted, deep down inside, was to maintain the status quo: me and her in his life, for his differing purposes (largely unknown or unacknowledged to even him). He wanted nothing else: not a peaceful, honorable life, or a deeply intimate relationship. At least not concretely. Like these men, he was a mass of romantic/sexual/narcissistic longings and hidden or stifled impulses toward authenticity.

That's the obstinance: refusing to choose. To commit. And that's what makes me really, really mad. I once told X-MM, when the breakup was imminent, that he was either going to have to replace me or start living some kind of honest life. He wrote back: "And those are my two choices?"

Such men need, deserve, and more than earn the boot in the [censored]. It makes me angry that there's some woman (either the OW or the wife) sitting there waiting to "recover" with these types. They'd sit there like Tony Soprano in therapy, a veritable lump, and get absolutely nothing done. (All the while dropping little crumbs to one or both women to sustain that glimmer of hope.) And at my X-MM's age, well, it occurred to me that it was probably too damn late for him.

These practical thoughts frequently trump anything romantic I could conjure. I can't be fooled any more. Too bad I was fooled for so long.

All this is why I can't help on the OW board any more. These things need to end, somebody has to do it. Individuals remain in arrested development, are stunted or destroyed in these things. It's simple, the stories are all the same, but people cling to the details like money. I did too. But once it's past, it's past. I have no patience left.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...Amen, nice post. I agree with you (and others) who can percieve the difference between "stupidity" and legitimate growth efforts. It is generally a waste of resources (better used elsewhere), to problem solve with such. In specific case of individuals who see a payoff in maintaining affairs, and/or entering new ones, after the first learning experience (which should have cured that choice) I wonder sometimes if they are just "stuck" in primal pursuit behaviour, what they are doing makes sense as a sexual strategy...and they just seem to lack the capacity for recognizing the higher order benefits of monogamous relationships. That makes they unworthy marital material, but explains why many times (aside from their intimate relationship) they are percieved as "good" people, work hard, good friend, good parent, trustworthy, lots of desirteable characteristics (smart, witty, compassionate etc.).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sungirl still retains some ways of thinking like an OW. I hope she eventually stops defending her emotionally made mistakes from the past and holds herself to a higher standard. Her inner resources for defending herself from future mistakes cannot be made while she's holding an emotional gun to her head.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure what you mean, here, Pep. What gun are you talking about?

~~~~~

Well, some people (usually young people, younger than .... let's say 35) experience their thought process as confused because of their intense feelings. They think something is "factual" if they "feel" it. I'm sure you know people with terrible phobias. It is hard to convince someone with a phobia that their fear is irrational. Because they feel it so strongly ... it must be factual. Feelings are true. Feelings are not factual. You have a daughter .... so you know what I'm talking about. For kids, sometimes their feelings are their only realily, because they lack life experience (or they are left out of the factual loop) which would lead them to a different conclusion, and possibly a different feeling. Like monsters under the bed .... until they are shown an empty space, the monster is real to the child because their feelings say so.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> speaking of pot .... I remember being convinced EVERYONE was staring at me ... and I shouted out ... "STOP STARING" .... in an ice-cream parlor. My feelings made me believe in an erroneous "fact".

So, the emotional gun to the head ... Sungirl's feelings of love and desire were intense and very real.

The fact was, he was an unavailable man and she realized (from past experience) she would be entering a relationship that was going to be painful all around.

She did it anyway, because of her emotionality. She held her emotions to her head (like a weapon) and took her thinking brain hostage.

I think doing this one time is enough .... but I see many people living their lives this way. And, I am pretty sure (now) that Sungirl is not going to be one of those people.





</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For some time, she should not trust her emotional decisions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't that true for everyone? Emotions are dangerous things and can often lead us astray, it seems to me.

~~~~~

Well, sometimes I see people advising "follow your heart" in some matters of romance. Not that I'm against "hearts" .... but once adulthood is achieved, there are other things involved as well .... like facts, consequences, conscience, ethics, principles, and some karma voodoo as well .... feelings are not to be ignored ... but feelings change .... and some decisions are not as carefully done as they might be ....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...learn how to make moral judgements, and feel good about it... the depth of compassion is amazing .... but the acceptance of the sin being wrong was absolute.[quote]

Well, yes. We all learn this over the course of lives lived. There is a question in my mind -- is it better to live life entirely by "the rules" without ever questioning them, or is it better to question them, make mistakes, learn from those mistakes, and live an ethically accurate life within the boundaries wrought from a life of mistakes and learning from them?

I really don't know.

~~~~~

me either

[quote]I do appreciate her as a lovely young woman who has wasted her gifts of love twice on undeserving partners.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you know the seeds were wasted simply because they seem to have been sown on barren ground?

~~~~~

You're right, I don't know that. I do meet many lovely young women who are in similar dead-end relationships .... and they have so little chance of getting out because they have feelings-directed lives. I took my work frustrations out on poor Sungirl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pep~

If my baby let's me, I will have to find the time to read this thread this weekend...looks very interesting. I scanned over it this morn. and read a total of 3 of the posts.

Your "confession of being a snob" being one of them.

Just wanted to quickly interject...

I LOVE YOUR POSTS!!!

YOU ARE SO SMART!!!

I want to be just like you when I grow up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keep on keepin' on!

~aut

Oh, and you are the epitome of "less is more"

I like!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by autumnday:
<strong>Oh, and you are the epitome of "less is more"

I like!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been told I am ambigious at times .... mostly when I'm "less" .... sometimes I deliberately leave room for interpretation .... it's more fun ....

Thanks for the compliment.

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you consider yourself a lesbian? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I consider myself a mainstream bisexual (a term that I just now made up), by which I mean that I am not affiliated with the lesbian subculture. WP and I lived in the hetero world for our entire relationship and found tremendous support and acceptance. I am personally attracted to both men and women, and if I ever start a new relationship, will be open to either one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a book written by Tammy Bruce ( a well-known lesbian) which addresses some of these issues .... the morality of society as a whole.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, haven't heard of her. I'll watch for her stuff next time I'm in need of good reading. Lately I've been reading feng shui books, but I'll probably have absorbed enough of that soon and go on to other things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you do read this book, be sure and read the forward .... her personal story as a young woman with her first lesbian lover .... a very famous TV actor's wife ... it's a jaw dropping story.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. I look forward to it. Sounds like something I'd've done when I was young and, err, young.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anywho .... I think that standards are important. personal and social.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true! Did I ever answer you about application of my own personal rules? I don't think I did. I think I'll chase down that loose end...

<small>[ October 08, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When do you allow yourself "exceptions" to your rules?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hm. I have allowed exceptions when I felt that I or somone I loved was in physical danger if I were to tell the truth. I don't regret that one.

I allow exceptions when it comes to ice cream and cookies. All in all, it's not wise, but it does damage only to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And ... what do you do when your rules have conflicting values? Example:

Don't waste resourses .... and take time to love.... "but"

When would you decide there was no more time to love because you felt it was wasting your resources?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I allowed a conflict between love and honesty in one of my secondary relationships/affairs where the OM refused to tell his wife about the relationship. It took me a while to end the relationship, but I did -- I couldn't stand the conflict between the rules.

Other conflicts? Hm. Well, I'm not sure what to think of your example. The only time when my own resources were stretched to the breaking point in the course of loving was in my WP's affair. In the end, I chose to save my own resources (e.g., sanity and emotional wholeness) over continuing to love. My love, it turns out, is neither infinite nor unconditional.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you make these priority decisions?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of the rules, the two most important in my daily life are honesty and love. Those two must be met, and I've learned that they BOTH have to be met in order for the solution to be ethical for me. I have, perhaps, given short shrift to some parts of the resources rule. Some resources -- monetary and time, for example -- are easily quantifiable and I rarely waste them. (By my own definitions; some people would consider this post a waste of time!) Since I've just added the keeping-my-word rule, I am not yet sure how it fits into the priority mix.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems like a very long "test" !!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I said before that I shouldn't have called my marriage a test. I guess all I want to add about it is that all in all, I think it was a successful one with one fricking HUGE mistake in it. But for 12 years, we had a really good time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sitting here laughing .... feeling DEEP sympathy for your MOTHER!!!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did tell my mom about this over the weekend, and she laughed about as hard as I thought she would. My good kid image is just too deep to get rid of at this point, I suspect. And I don't mind that a bit. one of the things I'm pretty sure of in all of this is that I am never again going to do things that I'm not willing to tell my mom and the Washington Post about. Not that the latter is ever going to care!

<small>[ October 08, 2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

Pep musta gotten busy again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

J .... I'm tired..... sometimes I just read and don't post, cuz my "words" aren't flowing smoothly ..... I occasionally teach a class at work, and often, like today .... once it's over, I've run out of words. So I am just quiet.

love,

pep (with a lower-case *p*)

I will say more later .... but just had to tell someone that today is one of those days my heart is fairly burst*ing with love for my dear sweet baboo ..... my hubby.

What a dear man he is......

Sometimes he makes me crazy .... but OMG, today he had tears in his eyes listening to song lyrics .... his sensitivity is sooooo endearing. He came in for a hug .....

Sometimes love is so sweet .... and we've been married since 1981!

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it possible to live an absolutist life? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay this thread is getting WAY2 serious! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes you can live an Abolut life:

Absolut Mandrin

Absolut Citron

Absolut Kurant

Absolut Peppar

Absolut Vanilia

And of course should you ever not be certain you could live an Absolut life there is always....

Absolut 100 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Stunned Dad ..... there is no booze in our home .... H is in 12-step recovery 7.5 years .... so I am absolute there is no Absolut!

Here's something un-related and sorta fun.... for sure it is NOT serious !!!

On our 2nd date, mr. Pep took me to a movie "Melvin and Howard" ..... about halfway through the movie, I looked up at the screen, and there he was, my "date", he was in a scene with Mary Steenbergen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He was too embarrasing to have as a "date" .... I HAD to marry him!!!

Pep-in-love

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep...

I gotta ask...

What was this song that moved Mr. Pep to tears?

Susan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Dang Pep thanks for making me feel like...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Liquor....Licker..... well guess I didn't do a very good job of steering this thread away from the Lesbian thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Dead man's Rope .... by Sting .... his new CD "Sacred Love". It's about recovery ... and walking away..... and walking "with him'.