I've edited this message to try and make something clear: The following is not a question about whether or not to expose the A! It is a question about HOW to expose the A without LBing while you do it.

Hey…can anyone help?

Do you have a thread link or suggestions for the Plan A discussion where you reveal to H that you know about the A? I think it will be very hard not to unconsciously LB here. For example, if he still denies the A (likely) – what do you do?

One thought I had was to tell him the confirmation came from OW through others (true). I found out recently that she told someone last spring they were having a PA and that she wanted him to tell me he was leaving me for her at that time.

Is it still a LB if the confirmation comes from her? And if it’s not true, won’t he see it as HER LB, not mine? And if it is true, won’t he feel betrayed by her for telling other people? He’s gone to great lengths to keep it secret even now. And won’t HER efforts to control his behaviour be the biggest LB of all for him???

I also like it because it gets me out of having to prove it, admit to snooping, etc.

And secondly, once having told him you know, do you just let him carry on? Some people seem to have set boundaries (no calling from our home, no seeing with our kids etc.) while others seem to demand N/C. I am in no position as I see it to make that demand, nor do I see that it will work. I think he has to make up his own mind.

That said, I think that by exposing the affair to him, I will make it tougher on me to keep on in Plan A but I guess I’ll just have to see what happens. Not to mention how I feel when I see OW and know that now she knows that I know (I see her a lot). One thought I did have is that it brings me into their secret circle. If he wants to, we can talk about what EN of his she meets, and why.

And finally, how the heck to you keep from crying as you tell him??? As I practised with MYSELF today, I kept crying. And I know that when I'm actually looking into his eyes, it will be much much harder. Not sobbing, just tears running down my face.

Why now then? My counselor wants me to tell him what I know, otherwise she believes I am risking damage to my own self-esteem by not respecting my integrity (ie. participating in lies, not revealing truth). As well as exposing the A between us, she suggests telling him how I feel, that I am committed to him and to our marriage and that I believe in him (which she thinks no one has ever told him before).

And she suggests just letting that new knowledge sit with him for a bit to allow him to absorb it and see what happens next, rather than telling others right now. And perhaps writing it down again for him later (ie. the parts about believing in him, loving him, etc.) because he carried around my last letter for weeks reading it over and over again.

If you want my background before commenting, you can read my insanely long posts (that kept me sane in many ways) over on JFO, "confronting or retreating".

I’d really appreciate any other related advice/suggestions (other than the usual Plan A links – thanks to Johnh39, WAT, Zorweb and others – which I have read and re-read about 25 times now).

Awed

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Two thoughts, no suggestions:

People take responsibility for things when they are problems for them. You are doing Plan A, and he is having an affair. Sounds like a great deal for him.

The OW may have told him that you know and he may tell himself that you must be OK with the arrangement.

Plan A, B or any other plan does not mean you don't have to show your feelings.

If crying is a need, then do it. If venting is a need, then come here and do it. It maybe better to write down your feelings, ponder it and then send it. You can pratice what you will say by talking to a mirror (close the door first, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

R U in counseling?

L.

Sorry...I obviously wasn't very clear.

Broken Heart and Arm: As for Plan A being a great deal for him, yeah I know. Imagine how hard it is for me to do! But you'd have to know the background to understand why I'm willing to do this. And the counsellor has given it her full approval.

But that is exactly why I want to tell him now...I want to get it out in the open between us so that he is under no illusions about how I feel.

And the OW doesn't know that I know. Someone else told me what she had told them. She has been urging him to tell me, but it's not because she cares about me!!!

Orchid: yup, I'm in counselling -- she's the one that said it's time to tell him now for the reasons already mentioned above. And I did ask her face-to-face vs letter, and she was adamant that it be face-to-face first because of the nature of the conversation, followed by a letter because he probably will absorb very little of what I'm saying.

Thanks for the advice. I've been practising for the last two days, but not in front of the mirror. I appreciate the advice that there is nothing wrong with crying (although a lot of the advice on the site seems to indicate otherwise). My mom thinks the same way, that if it is an honest emotion, there is nothing wrong with showing it. This hurts...he needs to know that, even if he is not prepared to actually absorb it.

Awed

This just makes me nuts. You've been doing a Plan A because you've known about his affair, he's still having the affair, and you're worried that telling him you know will be a love buster? For God's sake, what do you think his affair is, if not the biggest love buster on the planet?? Why in the world would you worry about crying or showing him how angry and hurt you are? You ARE angry! You ARE hurt! If you don't show it, he won't get it! You're entitled to your feelings. He's got a lot to answer for.

And as for setting boundaries - if you can't or won't carve that no contact line in granite, then why tell him? Telling him that you know and then accepting the affair as it continues is damaging to your self-esteem and sends the WRONG message to your H. If you want the affair to stop, you have to be willing to DEMAND that it stop, and you have to be willing to take appropriate action if he refuses to end it. And what is the appropriate action? That's up to you - he leaves, you leave, he moves out of the bedroom, you see a doctor for testing and cut him off sexually until he's been tested and the affair is OVER - there are plenty of actions that are absolutely appropriate to the situation.

But don't, whatever you do, allow yourself to become a doormat. No matter what happens to your marriage, YOU have to live with YOU for the rest of your life, and you have to be able to respect the person who stares back at you from the mirror.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why now then? My counselor wants me to tell him what I know, otherwise she believes I am risking damage to my own self-esteem by not respecting my integrity (ie. participating in lies, not revealing truth). As well as exposing the A between us, she suggests telling him how I feel, that I am committed to him and to our marriage and that I believe in him (which she thinks no one has ever told him before). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your counselor is RIGHT about the damage to your self-esteem. Listen to her.

So tell him that you know about the affair, give him the evidence, and don't hesitate to let OW know that you know. If you can stay calm, fine, but if you cry that's okay too. And if you yell and scream and curse him, well, that's just too bad - maybe that's the only way he'll understand just how much he's hurt you!

Expose the affair to the world - tell OW's husband and insist that your H join you in counseling. DON'T protect him by keeping quiet and thereby becoming a facilitator or an enabler.

Doesn't matter what your history with this man is. There is no good reason or justification for infidelity. If he was truly unhappy, then he should have had the courage and honesty to tell you and LEAVE before he took up with another woman. And don't let him tell you that HIS affair is all YOUR fault! Sure, you certainly contributed to the state of the marriage up to the point of the affair, but honey, after that, it was his choice to cheat and he must accept responsibility for his choice. And it was WRONG, under any circumstances.

Stiffen your spine, girl, and get up off the floor. You don't deserve to be treated this way.

Good luck. My prayers are with you.

Peace

awed18

Setting boundaries, revealing the truth and your pain are not really love busters...

They are reality...and while WS may attempt to turn this around on you...the TRUTH is that you are only speaking the truth of their actions and choices...

LB is when you present the information you have with a lot explatives thrown in there...you @##)(&^^* (**&&&^& head!!!!! you are having an affair...

though difficult the more you can avoid the name calling the more you defuse their ability to get off track and avoid the consequances of their actions...

boundaries that protect you, your children, you home, even if perceived by the WS as disrespectful...doesn't make them disrepectful...especially in the face of their grossly disrepectful actions....

Do not avoid setting safety boundaries out of fear that he will perceive them as love busting...

What are your expectations along with the revealing of this?

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"If you want the affair to stop, you have to be willing to DEMAND that it stop, and you have to be willing to take appropriate action if he refuses to end it."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry but I strongly disagree with this bit of advice because it runs counter to MB principles. Here's what Dr Harley says about it:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.
"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But if you want to take the above advice then you better be well prepared to file for divorce.

Wow...I hardly know what to say.

Once again: I didn't tell you my story because it is long (and now this will be too)...that's why I said go over to the other thread if you want to know what's behind my Plan A w/o exposing the affair. It's NOT that there is no reason!!!!!!!!!

This is a carefully planned out strategy and if you don't think this is the toughest thing I've EVER had to suck down in my life, YOU ARE WRONG.

And the counsellor has backed this plan 100% -- she is NOT critizing me by saying I should tell him now. She's saying it's the next step, and that the time has FINALLY come. And then I should WAIT a bit before taking the next step...ie. exposing A to others.

If it helps for anyone wanting to offer further advice, think of it this way: Let's pretend I had an A in secret and my H never knew (THIS IS NOT TRUE -- please don't start yelling at me). Then I ended it and tried to work on my M (all the rest of the story is true) but I did it without the benefit of MB principles so I LBd like crazy even though I thought of it as "working on my marriage". I threatened to leave him if he didn't change. He didn't, so I left him. At this point -- at some point during this last dreadful phase -- he started having an A.

But I'd already told him the marriage was over, and I'd also physically left, telling him that I wanted him to have a new place to live by the time I got back...I was really really really angry at him for what I saw as HIS failures in the marriage (where the heck was I???) and this anger lead me to be what I now consider to be emotionally abusive to him over the last 6 months of my marriage.

That is why there is no point in "threatening" him, "screaming at him" or anything else that other BS do when they find out about the A...he'd just leave and I wouldn't blame him. Our marriage sucked. It was bad for me and bad for him.

But I "woke up" as my counsellor said, saw the underlying value and decided to do something about it.

Plan A for me was to SHOW him a new me (which I am, now that the horrible anger is gone) which really translates to a new way for the two of us to communicate based on the MB principles. The reason? So there would be a positive reason for him to consider staying married. Is that any clearer?

To answer the question that was not asked, it is working (he's spending less time with her, has not moved out, talks with me as friends/life partners do, etc.) which is why I can now move to the next step of exposing the A.

If anyone can actually address the question I'm asking -- is it a LB to call your H a liar...I think it is! -- I REALLY want help in figuring out how to do this. It is more important to me, for me in my particular situation, than it is for other BS. I need to prove myself to him BEFORE he can prove himself to me. I need to give him some hope in life. But I also need to explain that the A has consequences and that although he might have been happy to lose the last W (me), he'll want to think twice before he loses this W (me again).

Please help if you can!

If this does not work out, of course I will Plan B. But this time with love and detachment, not the screaming furies of hell.

Listen, if you knew me you'd be laughing at the thought that I do not have "spine" or am a "doormat". This is about handling the greatest crisis of my life with extreme care and gentleness.

I hope this addresses all the points everyone has raised so far, answered the questions and not caused a new round of misunderstanding. I'm having a bit of trouble with this board now. Sigh...life is already hard enough and I'm reaching the end of my tether.

Awed

P.S. Oh yeah, the OW (the F**king B**ch) is a former friend of mine -- she knows full well what she is doing, she's single, a drunk, and quite likely a sexual predator to boot. There is no point in speaking to her about this situation.

P.P.S. Perhaps people won't understand but my H is in a hard and scary place -- I helped put him there, or at the very least, did nothing to mitigate or help him find his way out. I regret this immensely now and will do my very best by him until I can take it no longer.

The counsellor will monitor my progress and will tell me if/when she thinks it is enough. I have incredibly supportive friends and family in this with me BECAUSE my H is NOT in a typical A, he is so clearly in distress. The OW is egging him on in alcoholic behaviour and is a trashy fat pig. I am not worried this is a love affair except in a self-destructive, self-hating way. She is the only "enabler" in his life.

Sure I can leave him to it/her -- don't you think I know that is a viable option? But is that a MB option? The actions of a spouse who says they love you but then leave you in times of extreme trouble? Would this be the suggested course of action if he was mentally ill instead?

I am kind of shocked at the responses this morning, I must admit...

Hey TMCM, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The above rant does not include your post...I was writing the reply at the time you posted.

Thanks for your support in the approach I'm taking. It's hard to hear from other posters that you're doing the wrong thing when it is so counterintuitive to be doing it in the first place!

I understand a lot of the anger that is expressed on this board in general but still disagree that anger is the best way to save your marriage. I've been there and done that, and can only hope that this time -- without anger -- it is not too late for me to recover my marriage.

Trying hard anyhow...

Awed

awed...

I don't think people are being unsupportive at all..

your question was how to avoid LB's in disclosing...

the fact that disclosing may be perceived as an LB does not make it so...

and same with setting boundaries...
boundaries like...
dear I would be most appreciative if you do not invite OW to our home...
that's not a LB regardless of their response...
that's a realistic boundary..

you can support him 10000% with out supporting the affair a smidgen of a percent...

i am still not clear what you expect his response to be..

to deny and make it like you are imagining it all??

to admit and move out on his own..

to say to bad I live here but will do as I choose...

just wondering what YOU expect from him...

If anyone can actually address the question I'm asking -- is it a LB to call your H a liar...I think it is! -

not when it's clear that he is a liar...
you can always offer that information with the belief you have in him..and that you hate to think he is in a position that he feels he must lie to you....

that you value him and hate that he is doing and acting so out of character...
you can always take that approach...
but it is irrational to believe that unacceptable behavior is somehow rational...be very wary of that trap...

ARK

One comment I have is that it might be perceived as a HUGE LB to your H if you exposed the A to others close to him (not those who would mostly enjoy the gossip but rather those who might help him to understand that what he is doing is wrong), but the bubble is more likely to burst if people know what he is doing.

My WH was attracted to OW because of a shared interest in religion. She studied Christianity for two years at Oxford. And he is a former seminarian. Turns out they were in agreement that there are circumstances under which adultery is not adultery -- is acceptable even while they both stayed married to their spouses and had young children at home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by awed18:
<strong>

Is it still a LB if the confirmation comes from her? And if it&#8217;s not true, won&#8217;t he see it as HER LB, not mine? And if it is true, won&#8217;t he feel betrayed by her for telling other people? He&#8217;s gone to great lengths to keep it secret even now. And won&#8217;t HER efforts to control his behaviour be the biggest LB of all for him???

I also like it because it gets me out of having to prove it, admit to snooping, etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi awed,

I agree with the others that confronting him is not a lovebuster. A lovebuster is a disrespectful judgement or annoying behavior, ie: things that are HARMFUL to your marriage. Exposing the affair is not harmful, it is productive. Just because he doesn't like it doesn't mean its a lovebuster.

And you don't have to prove what you already know to be true. I wouldn't suggest revealing your sources of information, you need to protect them. However, you have nothing to be ashamed about in snooping. It sounds like you had very good reason TO snoop if he is having an affair. No one has the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. You had every right to snoop.

Thanks to everyone that's responded. I wrote a reply yesterday that was lost -- this is not the first time! -- because I hit the backspace key to correct a typo.

(You know, I keep on telling myself: use the DELETE key instead, but my memory just won't play along. I know this short-term memory loss problem I'm having is a side-effect of stress but if anyone has a short-term solutions to suggest, I'd be eternally grateful for that advice too!)

Anyhow, I can't seem to find the same words or coherent thoughts today. Likely because last night was hard on me, putting up the brave face when out with the 2 of them in public. I'll write a rational response when the muse returns but for now, I sure appreciate everyone's time and thoughts.

Content-wise, here's another TMCM quote I used before that sums things up for me. But I am greedy and am seeking individual attention from excellent LB-spotters rather than just the general guidelines.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also vote for confronting your W but NOT with the evidence you have but with the following:

'You know that I love you with every fiber of my being but I need you to be absolutely honest with me for it would hurt me deeply if I find out the truth from someone else, are you in love with another man?'

The point in this is that affairs are born out of and rely on dishonesty, and her acknowledgement of her affair would be a huge step forward in radical honesty. Not only that, but this would be a great opportunity for you to show her what you are made of by not punishing her for being honest with you. And you could even rack up extra love points if you empathize with her by validating her feelings that you would probably feel the same way if the roles were reversed (this is NOT condoning her affair) and she just might surprise you by reciprocating your empathy. By creating an emotionally safe environment for her to express to you her most deepest thoughts and feelings without being punished by you for doing so, you will rightfully be gaining back from the OM your role as your wife's closest confidant. So avoid ALL love busters (angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, dishonesty, annoying habits and independent behavior) against your wife ASAP.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Awed, I afraid I can't answer you question with authority as I'm a newbie also. But in response to your worry about crying while talking to him, this was a big issue for me at the beginning. I could not say anything without bursting into tears, my counselor told me early that their is nothing wrong with crying if it allowed me to get my point across. If on the other hand i just fell apart and couldn't get out what I wanted to say then their was a problem. My WS didn't hurt when I cried and found the whole thing pathetic, and finally i just said this is how I do it and I'm sorry I have to cry but I do. Now I can discuss anything with him and even when things get really tough i do it without crying. Of course it has a lot to do with how I feel about me, no one can make me feel bad about me. And I do understand your view that you don't want to give him ultimatims etc. My WS hates a scene more then anything, childhood issues, and I realized early that the problems where 50% mine. But to tell the truth I'm awed that you can do plan A without him knowing you know. If i do not get my feelings out when I'm angry with him and what is going on there is no way I can do a proper plan A. But I have learned to get those feelings out without accusing and jumping all over him basically without LBing. And then I move on to doing what I need to do on Plan A. And I'm not saying its right for every situation but looking back I can see where if I had actually allowed myself to realize it was an affair instead of denying it(I'm not saying your denying it, I did)and gotten out to everyone around us it would have let the A die sooner. Because it is true that secrecy allows an environment for the A to breed. When people start to know, its not that they pass judgement, many told WS that he was right to do what he did and he wouldn't have listened to anyone who said otherwise, but then they have to live the A in the light of day and everyday issues emerge. Of course there are some things I keep also. Like the fact he told me he had a PA 10 years ago with another friend, why? because he was honest and willing to work on our marriage and it was the same pattern in that I had just had a child and he felt alone, although this one was worse because it was EA, so I don't tell others because its over and done and if this marriage works I don't want it hanging over his shoulder, but to get him out of an A I would have exposed it. But of course hindsight is always clearer then foresight.
km4
me 39
WS44
two boys 4 and 11
OW was my best friend

Here's another quote from IcePrincess -- whose H's A also related to MLC -- which may help explain (using someone else's words) my underlying concern. See, it may be "normal" for the rest of you to lovebust but in this case, I simply can't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The best chance for recovery you will have if he comes out of the fog, realizes the A as a mistake and seeks help to become a different person.

This does not always happen immediately. It is normal that you are love busting, ie accusing him, fighting with him, making your distress heard. I totally understand that.

After you two agree you want to work on your M, try to talk to each other calmly. You admit your mistakes and see if that opens the discussion for him to admit his. Stop if it leads to lovebusting. Try to deposit love units in each others love banks. Be kind and gentle.

This is a terrible painful time for both of you.

But it is possible and likely that your marriage will recover.

Read and learn. Show each other caring and support.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Awed..

No one here is telling you to expose the affair in some huge demonstrative accusatory screaming match...

Plan A is not just about filling the love bank of the WS but also about negotiating the end of the affair relationship...

See, it may be "normal" for the rest of you to lovebust but in this case, I simply can't.

I don't even understand that statement..or where you are gleaming your perception that we are telling you to lovebust...

BUT I will say that setting even simple protective limits can and may be PERCEIVED as lovebusters by the WS...but that it does not make them so...
and fear that boundary setting will be perceived by the WS as lovebusting...and letting that fear stop you from not setting boundaries...is just as damaging as actual disrespectful love busting at its finest.

We here are all for presenting the issues and facts with as much love and concern you can...and in a way that is disarms their immediate need to defend and counter attack...

that's a huge part of plan a...

I do not believe for a second that it is a disrepectful judgement to tell someone who is lying to you that it hurts you to be lied too.
And though the person lying may not like hearing those sentiments...it doesn't mean the person being lied too should not speak their peace....

again be very wary that in your fear of LBing that you omitt to protect yourself from basic boundaries that you are worthy of...OR that you fall into the trap of rationalizing extremely disrespectful behavior by the WS out of fear of LBing...

awed we are not arguing with you that you are doing things wrong...to expose or not expose is your choice...
and there may things/parts about exposing the WS does not like...but that doesn't make them wrong;

ARK

awed, it is still not a lovebuster to expose your knowledge of the affair to your spouse. It is not a disrespectful judgement to bring the truth into the open. He might not like being exposed, but that doesn't make it a lovebuster.

Plan A does not mean you hide the truth in order accommodate the WS' affair. You tell him openly how you feel and what you know. That principle doesn't change in your case or anyone's case.

Betrayed spouses please note: don't read anything further if you are really hurting! I'm not your average BS so you may find my apologies to a WH just too hard to read. This is not intended to apply to your situation and I am not advocating that anyone else take this approach. This apologetic approach has been approved and sanctioned by a marriage counsellor because of the unique circumstances I'm in.

Since my general question seems to bring general responses about the need to confront As, will anyone comment on this specific approach instead? Tell me if I am LBing here? I'm condensing what I'll say to H but you'll get the gist of it I'm sure...

Before you comment, remember that my only concern is LBing. And to complicate matters, without asking him questions because the counsellor thinks that is too confusing in MLC to do so.

And one important point Ark raised: what am I looking for? I want him to commit to the relationship. That is my one and only goal (of course, I hope he'll end the A too but PATIENCE!!!). He has not committed to the relationship. Yet. Maybe never again. Any assumption you are using that this is a remorseful H is going to be wrong for my situation.

And thanks Ark because I think it was you who pointed out in someone else&#8217;s PLB thread that they should use the word "relationship" rather than "affair" because it avoids an instant argument/defensive reaction if H doesn't see it as an "affair".

1. (I start with the love you "bit". Then move to...)

I finally understand that I have not listened to you in the past, not really. I think I was scared to listen to things that were hard for me to hear because of vulnerability. Childhood issues meant that I was scared to be too vulnerable, and would push people away if I felt I was being hurt.

I love you more than anyone else in my life, ever -- you have been my rock for 15 years, and the love of my life for 17. But my fear meant that I pushed you away -- HARD -- when I felt I was being hurt. In fact, I was prepared to run away from you forever rather than face that fear.

I know you don&#8217;t believe this yet, but it was YOU who gave me the courage to face that fear at last. My love for you was strong enough to overcome a primal fear, and I have changed substantially over the past 2 months as a result. While I am continuing to grow and learn, I believe I am finally strong enough to listen to you, and hear what you have to say to me about your deepest thoughts and feelings.

This may be the hardest thing I have ever said to you: I know about your relationship with OW.

Despite every heart-breaker you and I have already experienced this year, this one brought me to my knees. My heart was shattered, my world turned upside-down...how could my husband -- my rock -- put me through such pain, humiliation, and lies, because of someone else. I felt unlovable, undesirable, filthy, dirty, used, and worthless. I thought it was more than I could bear, and for a time, it was.

But then I started thinking about everything I felt and how you must have felt over the past couple of years of our relationship. How I treated you. Betrayal -- I know that you have felt betrayed by my actions in the past (examples). Unloved... (examples). Devastated that your best friend could do something so hurtful to you (examples). Humiliated...(examples).

I have not been your best friend or lover for a very very long time. I hope that you will be able to forgive me for this and see that I am working to change this forever. I hope you will be able to find it within you to trust me again, and tell me how you feel without fear of reprisal.

I would like to commit to working on a new relationship with you, one free entirely of past mistakes, actions and behaviours that have hurt us both so much in the past. We still have a terrific partnership and share so many common interests in life.

This hope in a shared future together is why I decided it was time for me to tell you what I know, rather than wait for you to tell me. In trying to respect your feelings and choices, I have not been honest with you when I knew that you were telling me lies. It makes me feel sneaky, dishonourable and extremely unhappy with myself when I lie to you -- lying to my husband is the last thing I want to do.

This is not an attempt to force you into telling me something you don&#8217;t want to, to say anything to appease me, or not be honest with me because you don't think I can take the truth.

I can. The truth may be hard to hear at first, but the lies have become impossible to live with. I believe in you and want to ensure that you no longer feel that you must lie to me about anything.

>>>>well, that's about it. There's a bunch of other stuff about practical arrangements, etc. but those I'm not worried about LBing (unconsciously) through that discussion.

And like I said, I think if he denies the A, then I will use what SHE said first, then the actual lies I've caught him in because that way, his is less likely to deny it. And if he still denies, he's way too deep in the fog and my counsellor will advise me from there.

Another thing Ark suggested (thanks again!): that I could point out he was &#8220;doing and acting so out of character&#8221;&#8230;do you think I&#8217;ve done that in the above without making a judgement on him? &#8220;I have not been honest with you when I knew that you were telling me lies. It makes me feel sneaky, dishonourable and extremely unhappy with myself when I lie to you -- lying to my husband is the last thing I want to do&#8221; &#8211; is this too subtle? ie. by focussing on my behaviour, he sees the parallel to hiw own?

I DO think it is completely out of character (he's in some sort of MLC) but if I point that out, I believe it is judgemental and will hearken back to our old relationship.

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Thanks for commenting MelodyLane.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> awed, it is still not a lovebuster to expose your knowledge of the affair to your spouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've stated over and over again throughout this thread and even added a bold statement at the top to explain that I am not saying that at all! Can you tell me why you think I am? I'd really like to nip this in the bud once and for all.

"Accommodating the WS affair" is also not what I have been doing. What I have been doing is getting myself into a position so that there would be any reason for him to want to come back. That had to be done both to meet his EN (ie. instead of the odious OW) and to set the stage so that I could confront the A directly.

Have you read what I've written? Do you have any idea how tough it is NOT to expose the A and make love bank deposits at the same time?

This is not a normal case of a BS discovering affair. This case is different and the counsellor agrees it is. I just can't argue with you folks about it.

But I agree with you that no one else should be doing what I am -- this is not a case of the BS trying to understand how their actions could create an environment that allowed an A to happen, even though you may hear the same words used.

Hey Ark:

I was writing my long H speech when you posted. Thanks again for your advice but I have to disagree with you.

There is no "we" -- different posters are making different points. I even asked my sister (an MB member from last year unfortunately but their relationship is fantastic now!!!) to read the thread on the weekend to make sure I wasn't just being "sensitive".

Read TMCM's post to see another person who read what I did into some of the earlier responses.

Ark...can we just leave this point here? You've been very helpful and I think (let me know if not?) that I've incorporated your advice into my proposed speech.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No one here is telling you to expose the affair in some huge demonstrative accusatory screaming match... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm deadly serious -- I'm not talking "huge", I'm saying I have a zero tolerance level to attain! I cannot LB in small quiet ways. I am NOT worried about screaming, that is just not an issue for me.

And I've received feedback from enough people now that I am not worried about crying anymore either (thanks KM4 among others!).

I want him to commit to the relationship. We are not even at the point of negotiating the end of the A. But...........if I deliver a good speech that boosts all my efforts from the last 2 months, we may be there. This is my hope and strategy. This is why I am obsessing about this and so concerned that it be exactly right.

You asked what I thought his response might be? Listen, it is even possible that he could ask for my help in getting rid of someone that he is clearly starting to find a nuisance. My feeling is that if I delivered this speech in another 2 weeks, this would likely be the case.

He is coming around that fast. Each 2 week period shows more and more contentment with home, attachment to our old routines involving contact, conversation, etc, physical closeness (ie. affectionate kisses, hugs) -- a real thawing from the total ice block that wouldn't even look at me, talk to me, touch me.

The OW served her EN purpose for him and is now just a drunken riot partner (including occasional SF...wow, I never found sex with a drunk man fulfilling but then again, I'm not trying to break up a marriage either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Did I already mention the OW is a former friend of mine who's well aware of what she is up to?

But even though he is re-committing to our relationship step by step, he's still in MLC, he was emotionally abused by his partner and is severely depressed (just guessing but the counsellor thinks this is the case)...the counsellor told me flat out that I represent his life-line unless he really wants to hit bottom.

One last comment: I need to make decisions and move on with my life. This is where I am headed. If he is going to take the downward plunge, he will do it alone. Continuing the A at this point is a very short fuse, both for me and for him.

His morals are going down the toilet IF he continues the A once he knows I know. Not the man I want to be with thanks.

His life will be destroyed (pretty badly actually) if I expose the A. Not what I want to do to my H who is in crisis, in part because his W betrayed him and left him unloved at a very vulnerable time in his life.

Yes people, I know everyone wants me to expose the A to others but please trust my counsellor who is walking me through this nightmare. Small steps and pauses must be taken otherwise he will simply react back into the chaos instead of continuing to take baby steps out of confusion.

As has been said many times on this site: do you want to be right or do you want to be married? This is all about me -- don't be fooled. I want to be married if our relationship can change. I've worked on the only part I can so far...changing me.

I am about to put H on the first of several "notices". I need him to commit to the R; I need him to end the A (in that order too); I need him to work on the underlying issues he has so that we can build a new relationship together, free of the past mistakes but learning lots from them.

If I become discouraged at any of those checkpoints, I will re-examine where I'm at and make my decisions accordingly.

This is not about fear, it is about myself and a voyage of self-discovery. It is also about the love I feel for someone that I can finally FINALLY see is in true crisis. Has likely been quietly there for sometime which is why my EN were not met.

Hard love -- separation -- may well be what is required in the end. But I will make that decision when my current methods stop working -- right now, I've seen consistent dividends and still have great hope (although on some days it is overshadowed by its companion emotion of despair!!!) that things can work themselves out.

Here too, the counsellor agrees with me. This...HE...is not a hopeless case. Nor is my marriage despite its former appearance.

I just found another 2 examples from Star*fish on the JFO board that she says are non-LBs. I've modified them for my purposes but they kind of wrap up the feelings well for me...

"I feel humiliated and hurt everytime I see or hear about you touching and spending intimate time with OW."

"I feel devastated when you lie to me about spending the night with OW."