October, the deadline I set for my H to decide if he wants to wholeheartedly work on this marriage, or end it once and for all, is fast approaching.

So, even though it's a self-imposed deadline, I'm starting to feel a bit anxious. I don't want to extend it yet another time. I don't see that accomplishing anything other than telling my H that he can continue to treat me like he does for as long as he wants.

Even though some may think it is selfish, I have had enough of the same thing for 15+ months, I've had enough limbo, I want to know what direction my life is going in. By the "same thing," I mean my H only calls me once maybe twice a week if it's a good week, and only wants to have sleepovers, and can only find time to spend with me if we spend that time in private, in his house or my apt., on short notice, and only from Sun.-Thurs. The weekends he reserves for his family and friends. He will not commit to working on this marriage. He will not make our marriage or me a priority in his life.

I quite honestly doubt that he'll acknowledge that the one month mark is here. I'll likely have to point that out to him and request his answer.

Next week, I plan to ask him (if he doesn't bring the topic up directly himself) what do you want, do you want to work on this marriage, or do you want to live your life without me? If you want to work on this marriage, what would that mean to you? What kinds of things would that include?

If I get no resposne, I'd tell him that I have been thinking something along the lines of the following:

a) We agree to spend a minimum of 2 (should I say 3 or 4 so there's room to negotiate?) nights a week together doing something fun (eg. dinner, a movie, exercising, etc), and one of those nights has to be Friday or Saturday. I say one has to be a weekend night b/c he has literally only allowed me into his life Sun.-Thurs. since we separated. I think he still sees at least EA(could be PA)OW on the weekends maybe. Also, if I'm not important enough to spend time with on the weekend, we know what kind of a marriage I'll be stuck in....one where he's up on high, and I'm the "lesser" one, one where our marriage comes 2nd to his friends and family.

b) We agree to be honest with both our families that we are trying to work on our marriage. If he needs to keep it a secret from anyone, forget it, he's not serious about trying IMHO.

c) We agree to be completely open and honest with each other. We should be able to ask each other anything and receive the answer. (He seems to think that he shouldn't have to answer my questions about him and his EAOW, that anything that happened between them happened during our separation, so it's none of my business - I cannot live with that.)

Are these things unjust or selfish demands on my part, or are they reasonable requests / boundaries?

I guess what I need more than anything from my H is for him to be willing to treat our marriage and me as a priority in his life, a top priority in his life. Every time I've tried to talk to him about our M in the past year, he's said that our relationship or marriage was at the bottom of a pile of so many other concerns (his dad's poor health, then his dad's death, now his grandparents and mom fighting, etc). It's a conscious choice on his part to make it more important, is it not?

I would be eager to hear if you folks who have been through marriage rebuilding think my expectations are reasonable or not......

Jen

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Your requests are completely reasonable. IMO, asking for anything less will not produce true marital recovery.

I'd ask for 3-4 nights a week to spend time together, and maybe agree to start out slowly with the verbalized understanding, on both parts, that after X amount of time, time together increases. I'd also ask him to consider spending part of that time together in Christian fellowship somewhere and I'd even go so far as to let the place be of his own choosing.

I'd also want to be sure he's willing to do some kind of MC. He has many obstacles to overcome and it has never appeared that he's coped very well with any of them. Also, it is difficult at best, to try to change marital patterns of interacting without weekly guidance, troubleshooting and reinforcement.

If you are going to want him to commit, make sure he knows exactly what you expect from him up front. That or expect that you'll receive much flack later on for changing the rules. It might be likely you'd have limitted success getting those added expectations met, which ultimately just means more heart ache down the road. This doesn't mean that you have to push him to go faster than he is comfortable with, but it means it's been agreed that you are moving together, in agreed steps, to a mutually desired outcome, recovery and a new marriage.

One more thing. If he won't agree to start fellowshipping together somewhere, start going yourself and gently you will lead him. God bless you Jen. Good luck and prayers!

Jen, let me agree with what mthrrhbard told you.

It is time, and yes if he wants to work on the marriage it might take "another month", for him to also face his "demons". It's no longer a time to indulge one's self and run and hide. Either stand up and face the demons, or run and hide and let them control your life forever. But gently, Jen. YOU know facing your demons is not easy and not without pain.

If he's not willing to work on it, then remember that God is also a God of Peace. You know that's not a recommendation or and endorsement to proceed with a divorce, but it also means that if you've done all that you can do and someone continues to reject Godly direction and commands, then it may be time to allow God to take over "full time" as you work on your own relationship with God....by yourself.

In this case, I am clearly not sure that your husband was ever "saved". Therefore, if the unsaved spouse chooses to leave, "then let him" would seem to be appropriate. As you know, the overriding concern I have is for his relationship with God. If that is addressed first, the rest will follow (maybe over a long period of time) because God will teach Him those lessons also as being integral to a close walk with Christ.

I'll be thinking of you and praying. Let us know when the "day" will be.

God bless.

Dear Jen...

Here I am just to confuse you....

I suggest you take a different approach... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

(would you expect anything different from me...)

I suggest you first establish if he wants the marriage or not...

hear his answer...

if he does then perhaps do the following...

1. Decide first and formost that you will go to counseling together...
and consider strongly that it is within the frame of MC that you establish the foundation....

the want and desire of a marriage that is both truly worthy of him and you is a process...
established best when the traits you desire..
honesty
openess
partnership
are valued by both.

No one who really "wants" to be married...and celebrate the actions of marriage would want anything different...

He knows the things you want are reasonable within marriage...you run the risk of him perceiving you as "insulting" him if you define for him what he should want...( what everyone married should want)

I hope that is not getting lost in translation...what you desire from is right on target...but if you tell him these things he will twist them on you...

This is his wake up call to decide once and for what he perceives a real marriage to be..
and decide if he is up for the task/challenge...

It is as they say in his hands...

We agree to be completely open and honest with each other. We should be able to ask each other anything and receive the answer. (He seems to think that he shouldn't have to answer my questions about him and his EAOW, that anything that happened between them happened during our separation, so it's none of my business - I cannot live with that.)

He doesn't know how to do these things...you are asking him to agree to do something that he either doesn't value or hopefully just doesn't understand how to do...

He needs to learn these things...but the best motivator to learning is that he wants to learn these things...

I would approach this in a much more positive light...
that you believe in him and you enough that you believe together you can have the type of marriage that is a real nuturing partnership

that working together on the past and present..

if he will committ to that then move slowly to other things...

In fact you may want to go real slow...
he decides he does want this marriage...then perhaps make a new time frame...

take two weeks to think what that means for both of you......
and give him the option as well to define and make some type of road map...or your guys case...
a lesson plan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

if you hit him with a list...when he has no list...then he may feel resentful or that already you are "controling"..."demanding"...telling him"...what to do...(partly you are..and partly you aren't)..
but you should give him the same opportunity so that it is an equal exchange of ideas and visions of what a marriage is...not just your definition...
Anyone who wants to work on a marriage should have a list as well...not just one partner...
if recovery is equal then what he wants/needs is important to be heard as well....

and the negotiated to together...
listen to him...hear him as well...as much as you want/need to be heard..be sensitive to his needs as well...

lots and lots and heaps and heaps of positive reinforcement if he wants the marriage...

give him the options to find a counselor...
give some control to him as well to lead recovery also....

jen it is not unreasonable to want honesty in a marriage...but if you have to tell someone that...it's empty to begin with...in this case this may be a learning curve process...

It is time for him to step up to the plate...and time for you to hear and see what he brings to the table....

think of the long term goal here...
look at the bigger picture of where you visualize eachother together a year from now...two years..
true partnership...learning how to be for eachother...

confused???
Good!!!!
then my mission is accomplished...

ARK

Thanks mthrrhbrd, FH, and ark. I would really like for us to go for Christian counselling too, but I figure I need to ease in towards that, since he's always adamantly said he refuses to go for counselling, since "there's nothing wrong" with him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suggest you first establish if he wants the marriage or not...hear his answer...He knows the things you want are reasonable within marriage...you run the risk of him perceiving you as "insulting" him if you define for him what he should want...( what everyone married should want)...I would approach this in a much more positive light...that you believe in him and you enough that you believe together you can have the type of marriage that is a real nuturing partnership...take two weeks to think what that means for both of you......
and give him the option as well to define and make some type of road map...or your guys case...
a lesson plan [Wink]
if you hit him with a list...when he has no list...then he may feel resentful or that already you are "controling"..."demanding"...telling him"...what to do...(partly you are..and partly you aren't)..but you should give him the same opportunity so that it is an equal exchange of ideas and visions of what a marriage is...not just your definition...Anyone who wants to work on a marriage should have a list as well...not just one partner...if recovery is equal then what he wants/needs is important to be heard as well....and the negotiated to together...listen to him...hear him as well...as much as you want/need to be heard..be sensitive to his needs as well...lots and lots and heaps and heaps of positive reinforcement if he wants the marriage... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ark, you've said so much that I want to think about carefully today. Your point about approaching it all more positively really has me thinking. I guess flying at him with an ultimatum and list of expectations, like I know what is best for us, and will he agree to it or not, may not be the most encouraging approach. Why would he want to be married to a control freak anyway?

I'll have to think on this stuff for a bit.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he's always adamantly said he refuses to go for counselling, since "there's nothing wrong" with him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Counseling isn't about "him" it's about the marriage. You could easily counter this delicately by stating that there is something "wrong" with the marriage.A marriage is about two people, therefore his presence in counseling is essential to build a healthy marriage. I'd ask him if he had this same goal in common, to build a healthy marriage.

It's all about the approach Jen. You can let him know what you need without putting him on the defensive. The last thing I'd want to do is to make him feel like he's being made to measure up to some standard he's had no part in developing. You will do better if your approach is based on "we" and not "me". In that way you can accomplish what you need to without alienating him.

Hi, Jen its been a while since I have been on the board so I caught up a bit with reading. You have actually been making quite a bit of progress since the last time I read. (probably 4 weeks) Sounds ike you are having regular contact with your husband. Remember it is going to take time for you to fill his love bank again. I would hate to see you throw it all away by giving up now. Also remember that you have to keep God involved in every decision that you make, don't just take your counsel from other people but seek your answer from his word. I am seeing so much progress. One thing that you will always find is that as you take 2 steps forward you will also be taking one step back and become discourged. If you look at your progress one day at a time it doesn't look like your gaining. Look at it over the last year and you have gained a lot. Don't take this decision lightly but seek God for what he wants you to do. Ask yourself what conditions would God place on your husband for him to come home. Now is the time to truely put into practice what God expects of a Godly wife. I know that it is tough kiddo, but seek God to give you the answer to know what his will is. Smiaj

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's all about the approach Jen. You can let him know what you need without putting him on the defensive. The last thing I'd want to do is to make him feel like he's being made to measure up to some standard he's had no part in developing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed mthrhbrd, this is similar to ark's post about focusing on the positive.

I know I need to describe my needs as simply that, needs, not ultimatums. Today I'm working on a list of things that I need, and plan to tell him that I need.

I need, more than anything, to be true to myself and my needs, and not let guilt of any kind drive my actions. I will NOT let him have the privilege of continuing to treat me the exact same way any longer. Either he is up for making some changes, or I'm not up for this anymore.

Back to paring down my list.....

Jen

Okay, I've got my list figured out. This is my plan:

Now that it’s the end of the month:
• I need my H to tell me whether he wants this marriage or not, and if so, what does that mean to him? (in terms of how he and I will interact and treat each other from now on?) If he wants a few days to think about what this means, fine. However, I cannot go on with things the same as they are.

If he chooses to take the few days to think, end of conversation for the time being. If he says well, what do you want? I think I'd be likely to say, I want you to figure out what you want first, and then we can talk. Let's talk again on ....(a couple days from now).

Then when we do talk, I let him know that my needs and expectations include:

I have realized that I want / need:
• For us both to treat this marriage as a top priority in our lives. If it has to come behind family, friends and work, then it won’t ever survive. Every time I've tried to talk to him about our M in the past year, he's said that our relationship or marriage was at the bottom of a pile of so many other concerns (his dad's poor health, then his dad's death, his brother's depression, now his grandparents and mom fighting, etc). It's a conscious choice to make it more important.
• To be treated like a friend (to work on rebuilding our friendship) – that means talking in an open and honest fashion.
• For us both to be completely open and honest with each other, about everything and anything. This includes where we go, what we do,who we spend time with, and how we feel. Most importantly, I need to know the truth about H’s relationships in the past year, specifically his relationship with C (EAOW).
• I need him to end all contact with C.
• I need for us to go for counseling.
• I need for us to treat each other as equals and partners in this, not him as the betrayedand therefore superior one and me as they groveling inferior infidel.
• I need for us both to be open and honest with our families and friends about our decision to recommit to working on this marriage. If he needs for it to be a secret, then this marriage apparently isn’t a priority for him.
• I need for us to spend at least 2 or 3 days a week together doing something OTHER than hiding out in the house (going for a walk, eating out together, going to a movie, etc.). One of these days needs to be Friday or Saturday. Why? Because for the past year I haven’t been good enough to spend either of those days with, I was not a big enough priority and I needed to remain a secret from the rest of the people in your life.
• I need for my H not to drink when we’re together.

Heck, I plan to take this list with me!

If he's a persistant pest, like he usually is, it's highly likely he'll demand to know what I expect and need in the first conversation (that is IF he says he wants this marriage). If he presses, I will tell him exactly what I need, and read from the above list.

Or should I gently refuse to tell him what I want and need...until he's taken a few days to decide what he wants and needs?

Edited to say.....maybe I should call him and set up a date, time and place to meet and discuss "what we plan to do about this marriage"? It would be much easier for me if I KNEW when we were going to talk next, than always just letting him have total control and waiting for him to contact me whenever he feels like it. I'm sure it would go much better than if he just shows up on my doorstep at the end of a long day at work or something. Would it be so terrible for me to break my plan to not contact him in order to choose a time/date/place to talk?

Jen

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Any serious conversation should be planned and not left to chance.

If this were me, I'd want to let him think about what he wants and needs so he can develop his own list. Otherwise, you run the risk of it looking like he's the only one with a "honey do" list to work on. If that were to occur,the conversation could turn from positive to negative really quickly. You could tell him that you need to come up with your own ideas/plan of what is needed to move forward as well, even though you are already prepared. He doesn't need to know that. That way if he says he wants the marriage, this initial important interaction between the two of you stays entirely positive, is rewarding and leaves a sweet taste for both of you, instead of one of you feeing overwhelmed right off the bat.

How's this for when I call him later today or sometime tomorrow?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "H, I would like to get together this weekend to discuss our future, since the one additional month you asked me for to think about things is now over. Before we get together, I think we both need to decide for ourselves if we want to continue this marriage, and if so, what conditions we would both need for it to continue and for us to work on it."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does that sound clear and postive enough? Or does it still smack of adversarial negativity?

Jen

Well, he did his usual Monday night call me to ask me if I want to come and spend the night. I said I couldn't b/c I have some work to finish up tonight.

Then I said but we should pick a day later this week to meet and talk, and he said (like he had no clue what I meant) talk about what?

So we talked about it on the phone, like I did NOT want to.

He said if I was going to force him to make a choice, he doesn't want to change things from the way they are now, so I may as well write up the papers. I said I can imagine him being comfortable with things continuing as they are now for another year or two even, and he said he didn't disagree.

A few choice comments that were made by him were:
- if he had to choose between me and his mom, he'd choose his mom
- he is more afraid of me "raping" him financially than he is of me cheating on him again (he means me pushing to take him for all he's worth in terms of a separation settlement - a reference to my going along with my lawyer's fairly hardball tactics in June)
- he absolutely doesn't want kids, primarily b/c he doesn't want to end up someday paying child support to me while some other man raises his child (he is still afraid of me betraying him again)
- he can't tell his family if we spend time together, he'd be embarrassed if they found out
- his mom is booking a family x-mas trip to Cuba tomorrow, and that includes one ticket for him, so we'd have to spend x-mas apart anyway
- he told me that he told his mom in the summer that we really were totally done so that she'd stop lecturing him about he should take me back and finally leave him alone; and that's why she thinks it's okay for her to book just one ticket for him on an x-mas trip to Cuba. (I told him at age 31 he should be able to do what HE wants, not what his mother wants.)
- he repeated how he didn't think he wanted to be married, and that doesn't have anything to do with me. He said he's changed and does what he wants, when he wants, and no one has any control over him except his mom, and her control is minimal.
- THIS is the biggie - he said he'd rather finalize everything, completely divorce and finish the division of things financially, so that then he wouldn't have to worry about being afraid of me financially raping him, and then maybe we could focus on the relationship. Maybe that would be smart I said. Maybe we'll do that down the road, who knows.
- he said he sometimes wonders how smart I really am (to which I said gee, thanks for being mean, then he went on to say....), considering I hit him with that lawyer's letter in June, right when he was ready to work on things. He even said we may have really begun to recover our marriage by now if I hadn't done that.

I commented on how we've gotten along better in the last month than we have in ages (and said therefore it disappoints me that he can't commit to more), and he said we got along so well b/c I didn't put any pressure on him at all this month.

So it seemed like we were going in circles after a while, me saying several of the things that were floating in my head for a while now, and us revisiting some of the same things we'd both already said a couple of times, and it WAS clear that he can't make enough of a commitment to me as I feel I need and deserve, and also clear that he really is terrified to trust me, and still would want things to continue as they are, so I will have to file. But I didn't have the balls to say that at the end of the conversation to strongly summarize things. I just said, well, I guess there isn't much else to say tonight, and we said goodnight/goodbye.

I'm sad right now, but I am not completely sure why. I guess it's b/c, as I told him, I actually thought there was a good chance of him saying he would like to try making more of a commitment to each other and really trying. However, that isn't going to be the case. I guess he's forcing my hand, and I need to put an end to things. I sort of do wonder if things really would've been different if I hadn't gone the lawyer route in June.

I'm not sobbing like I did so many times in the past year, but I am crying for the first time in a while.

I guess there is no happy ending either way. It would either have been hard work with dark shadows in our closets the rest of our lives, or an end to 12+ years of real happiness.

I'm almost embarrassed to say that I hope that he thinks about our conversation and calls me again later this week to say that maybe he could make more of an effort, or maybe he's thought of a way he could feel safe trusting me not to financially rape him so we could try.

Why can't I just bury the damn optimist in me once and for all?

I guess I am just one big sucker in one way or another. I let 3 OM's sucker me into cheating on my H, I let my lawyer sucker me into hitting him super-hard in that letter in June, and I let my H sucker me into 16 months of dragging this out with little or no changes during that time. That's sure one personality trait I've got to work on some more (it's all about setting my boundaries, I KNOW, but that doesn't make it feel any better).

Feeling very down and depressed again tonight, although oddly maybe a bit relieved,

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Jen I don't have any magic words for you that can make you feel better about your situation but I just wanted to remind you that you are good person who deserves to be happy with or without your H. Be kind to yourself Jen.

Hey Jen I join Coffee in echoing his words.

Let me add something you may not want to hear.

You have been in Plan A for quite awhile. And everytime you decide to Plan B or get on with your life and leave the reconciling to him you stumble.

And to be honest by putting deadlines you give him the chance to get back at you by rejecting you formally one more time.

Lord knows you have gone the extra mile to make up for things.

If he truly wants to get back with you then he has to want to not cave in to a deadline.

Perhaps you should go ahead and get on with your life. Do so with the knowledge this may be the end of your marriage. But at this point you have had no marriage for 15 months and he only slightly seems interested in reconciling. Indeed he has his cake (you) and eat it too (other women). That's not much of an incentive to recommitt.

If it is truly meant to be then the you filing should serve as a lasting wakeup call. And if it doesn't then you won't spend the next 15 months in limbo.

I truly wish I could give you the everything will be alright speech but I can't see it happening based on what you are posting regarding his words and actions.

Thanks TMCM and stunned-dad. I needed to hear those words. Sadly, I've known for a very long time that he just doesn't want this marriage as much as I do...I mean look at the end of my sig line for pete's sake...I guess it's time to just finish it off already.

Jen

Jen

I'm really sorry to hear this conversation you had with H.

It reminds me of mine with Pound Man "Would you consider coming to MC with me, as I really think you could help me with some problems"

Pound Man: "Why, what's the point?"

Lisa: "Well, maybe we can reconcile our M."

Pound Man: "I don't want to"

Ouch, it hurts doesn't it. Buying a ticket for Christmas says a lot to me Jen. It seems clear that he has no intention of putting you at the forefront of his life and working on this.

The other thing Jen is that it is very convenient for him to use your actions in June as the final push away. I'm sorry if he had been really committed at that time, he would have told you so, and it would have been a wake up call. I just think it's another reason to blame you for everything wrong in his life.

I know how this hurts Jen, but you have been doing this for too long. Please read what Stunned Dad said carefully. Please think about putting yourself first and caring for you.

Take care Jen, know we are all routing for you.

Lisa

He has strung you along for a long time, and he would continue to do so if you let him.

Plus I can see among your conditions, that he end contact with "C" and its my strong belief he won't agree to that.

He simply isn't in a place right now where he is as motivated as you to give effort towards this relationship. He's perfectly willing to take what he wants from it.

I beleive this is part of the path you must follow. Its very likely that as you go through this process he may realize what he's losing. But its up to you to help him realize what LOSING THE RELATIONSHIP is all about. And he won't as long as you keep ignoring your own boundries.

Its time for a sort of Plan B. Or maybe more like the 180's. Time for him to see you moving on without him.

Thanks everyone for your encouragement and observations about my H, who in hindsight really didn't ever want to be husband and wife again, and truly work on this marriage. I haven't been a priority in his life in ages, and won't ever be one again. Now I look back and think that he just wanted to manipulate me, make me feel good and guilty, get some occasional sex from me, and keep me from getting any money from him. I sometimes think that I may not have dragged things out this long if I hadn't found MB and all the successful recovery stories that go along with it - it is somewhat responsible for my unrealistic expectations that maybe, just maybe he'd snap out of his fog and we could work things out. BUT, that being said, I've learned so much on MB, that I know all in all it is a very good thing that I ended up here.

Oddly enough, my sadness only lasted that evening and early the next day. After a day at work (teenagers really are great therapy!), my perspective has changed from one of sadness and regret to one of calm relief and hope for the future.

Next week I'll be meeting with my lawyer to get going on drawing up the rest of the necessary papers. I look forward to getting my half of the house equity so I can buy a home of my own, and get out of my wee apartment. What is going to be frustrating is that it takes 2-3 months to finalize everything, so we probably won't be divorced until around Christmas, but at least it's before our next (8th) wedding anniversary at the end of Dec.

My H won't ever make me or our marriage a priority, so I am done making him any kind of priority whatsoever in my life. It is time to put myself first and care about me as you said Lisa.

I know I will be okay. It's frustrating that I gave him 13 years of my life, but I have many, many years left, that I am going to live to the fullest.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh, and Lexxy, it's not time for any more 180s or Plan B. Now it's on to Plan D (divorce). I am done!

Jen

Hi Jen: Thanks for posting your update. I was praying that you were doing ok.

You have grown in character and grown out of this need to be manipulated by your H.

I believe that you are doing the right thing. Stick with your plan b/c you sound quite sure of what needs to be done. Your H will just keep dragging you through all kinds of reasons why he wants you around once in awhile.

Move on and enjoy your life. You are a beautiful person and deserve a good life.

Take care.