I've been in a very bad way much of this week. Spending a lot of time alone and crying. I avoid H when I am crying, but he will come and find me anyway and demand to know what I am crying about.

My answer has been that I want us to have a "real" marriage where we treat each other as equals and never leave anybody in the dark about where we are and what we are doing -- and that we tell each other *before* things happen, not after (a real sore spot with me.)

As a result of this, I guess, he has finally agreed to tell me where he is going and what he is doing at work. However, he is very, very angry and resentful about this. I told him that was not what I hoped for. He just snarls that YOU'VE GOT WHAT YOU WANTED, SO TAKE IT, and that's the end of it.

Okay. Great. He's agreed to tell me what he does before he does it. But he's furious. I feel certain that the first time this causes some sort of problem or inconvenience for him at work, he will take great delight in telling me just how much trouble this is causing him and how I'm ruining his career (funny, he told me years ago that if we interacted at work that would ruin his career, too, so I *had* to stay away from him since I worked there too.)

This is not what I wanted. When we talked about this today, I had been crying for a long time but was very calm when I tried to explain to him again that having a POJA about his work life was absolutely vital to our ever healing this relationship.

To me, this is not the POJA at all. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm listening.

My H has called POJA ridiculous and impractical. You know why? It limits what he can do. He is limited because he must consider my feelings.

You can't force someone to consider your feelings. The only time my H liked the POJA was two years ago this week when I e-mailed Harley's radio show and he told me to call OW's H. I didn't because H invoked POJA and said I won't have any contact with OW if you don't call OW's H.

You know what? I have felt guilty for not calling OW's H to expose the A just three weeks after the first kiss. With my perspective now, it doesn't matter.

He still doesn't care about my feelings. It doesn't matter whether he had a three week or 8 month A. What matters is that he still doesn't care about my feelings, and no amount of crying or pleading or threatening is going to change that.

Carolyn Hax said in one article: fix it or file it. I would interpret that to mean accept it or leave him. You can't change him. He is doing a great job of telling you he doesn't care about you, and you just can't believe it. You think more crying will make him care. Well, IMHO, it won't. It just further erodes your self-esteem.

I'm not talking from some mountaintop. I'm in the mire just like you. I talked with my H about separation this evening.

It is not POJA if both partners aren't happy about the agreement. He's just playing more games by punishing you with for asking for honestly and openess in your marriage.

Nothing will change until you do.

***Nothing will change until you do.***

What else can I do to change?

Back off. Back way off. Try getting "The Solo Partner" through the library, since it is out of print.

You aren't just dealing with an A. You are dealing with abuse. Emotional abuse. Believe me, it is worse than physical abuse. I am looking for your posts because your situation is so similar to mine.

Only I have stopped crying and being angry. It's not that I've given up. It's that I've realized that trying to convince him of anything is pointless.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mulan:
I've been in a very bad way much of this week. Spending a lot of time alone and crying. I avoid H when I am crying, but he will come and find me anyway and demand to know what I am crying about.

When he does this look at him and say : "Please hold me right now. I need your strong arms around me. Just hold me .... and later I will be able to talk without crying." He needs to feel he can help and not hurt, and he's sort-of a clod about his ... so guide him. If he realizes he can help you stop crying by being with you and not doing anything more than holding you .... he will feel good, and he will be motivated to do it again.

~~~~

My answer has been that I want us to have a "real" marriage where we treat each other as equals and never leave anybody in the dark about where we are and what we are doing -- and that we tell each other *before* things happen, not after (a real sore spot with me.)

"I feel lost and frightened. Please just hold me, and we can discuss things when I am calm again. I need your arms to hold me."

~~~~

As a result of this, I guess, he has finally agreed to tell me where he is going and what he is doing at work. However, he is very, very angry and resentful about this. I told him that was not what I hoped for. He just snarls that YOU'VE GOT WHAT YOU WANTED, SO TAKE IT, and that's the end of it.

OK .... next time ..... if you delay "the talk" until you are calm and not crying .... he's not going to feel hi-jacked by your tears. Your tears are legitimate and worth showing ... but try not to discuss your needs when you are so emotional. Men aren't women .... you can do this with a girlfriend ... but not with guys.

~~~~

Okay. Great. He's agreed to tell me what he does before he does it. But he's furious.

I think he feels that he cannot please you .... and this is frustration he's showing. He is frustrated because he feels no matter what he does, you aren't happy. Change that perception, and you'll see a different man at home.

~~~~

I feel certain that the first time this causes some sort of problem or inconvenience for him at work, he will take great delight in telling me just how much trouble this is causing him and how I'm ruining his career (funny, he told me years ago that if we interacted at work that would ruin his career, too, so I *had* to stay away from him since I worked there too.)

Ask him if this is the case. Tell him that together, you can work something out so that you feel safe, and he feels he can be what he is supposed to be at work. Solve this as a couple .... but NOT WHEN YOU ARE CRYING. He may think you are presenting him with "lose-lose" solutions. Tell him you are searching for "win-win" solutions to your problems. THAT'S POJA !!!!

~~~~

This is not what I wanted. When we talked about this today, I had been crying for a long time but was very calm when I tried to explain to him again that having a POJA about his work life was absolutely vital to our ever healing this relationship.

Ask him .... "What can we do so this works out for both of us? Let's come up with something together. It may take time, but I have confidsence we can do anything we set out minds and hearts to do."

~~~~

To me, this is not the POJA at all. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm listening.

When you find yourself crying .... ask to be held. And DO NOT problem-solve until you feel clear-headed and calm. If he's not home when you're crying , self-soothe ..... later, ask him to hold you when he does come home. Tell him how great it feels to be in his arms.

He feels impotent and useless .... how can he be a man if he can't help his wife .... help him help you!!!!

Pep

***When he does this look at him and say : "Please hold me right now. I need your strong arms around me. Just hold me .... and later I will be able to talk without crying." He needs to feel he can help and not hurt, and he's sort-of a clod about his ... so guide him. If he realizes he can help you stop crying by being with you and not doing anything more than holding you .... he will feel good, and he will be motivated to do it again.***

Pepperband, we were doing exactly this for a while. It was starting to help me some. But here is the problem: Everytime Plan A is in effect, and we do things together and have a nice time and start to live like a normal family, my reaction and his reaction are entirely different.

My reaction: Okay, he's finally understanding now that he cannot abandon me and cut me out of his life when he's at work. I can relax, knowing that he won't do that anymore.

His reaction: Thank God that's over. Now things can get back to normal, and I can go back to doing whatever I need to do at work without any more interference.

Then something like his off-site birthday party happens. He goes off to it without a care in the world, enjoying the time away at a nice restaurant with his co-workers (one of which is a new female who is exactly his type.) Doesn't invite me; has no desire to have me there; calls me AFTER it's over to "let me know what's going on."

On hearing this, I am right back where I was before -- abandoned, in the dark, not wanted. He is angry, furious and frustated, and INSISTS that he handled this the right way.

There is nothing and nobody that will convince him that maybe his wife should come first over his co-workers and their party. Nothing. This is why I'm crying a lot now, usually when he's not here. I thought he loved me. He doesn't. No man behaves this way towards someone they love.

***"I feel lost and frightened. Please just hold me, and we can discuss things when I am calm again. I need your arms to hold me."***

I have told him I'm scared. Scared to death of losing everything - my husband, my home, everything. He mocks me for being scared. Says I need to get out and live in "the real world."

***OK .... next time ..... if you delay "the talk" until you are calm and not crying .... he's not going to feel hi-jacked by your tears. Your tears are legitimate and worth showing ... but try not to discuss your needs when you are so emotional. Men aren't women .... you can do this with a girlfriend ... but not with guys.***

I have done this. It's never made any difference. I am trying to build a relationship with a man who simply does not love me and does not want me for anything more than a part-time marriage.

If he can't take off with his "friends" without me, keep his private life to himself, and still have his marriage when he feels like he wants it, his life sucks. The idea of choosing me over them is "punishment" and "paying for it."

I cannot tell you how horrible it makes me feel to know this.

***I think he feels that he cannot please you .... and this is frustration he's showing. He is frustrated because he feels no matter what he does, you aren't happy. Change that perception, and you'll see a different man at home.***

See explanation above. I have done this. He thinks that means everything is ok now and (whew) he can go back to his "normal" life. He still thinks, as he has from the start, that his only problem is how to convince me to accept his lifestyle. The idea that a married man does not behave this way -- much less a man who loves me --is entirely rejected. It just doesn't apply to him.

***Ask him if this is the case. Tell him that together, you can work something out so that you feel safe, and he feels he can be what he is supposed to be at work. Solve this as a couple .... but NOT WHEN YOU ARE CRYING. He may think you are presenting him with "lose-lose" solutions. Tell him you are searching for "win-win" solutions to your problems. THAT'S POJA !!!!***

I did try this. He knows about MB principles and seems to respect some of them -- but NOT POJA. He has been so cold and nasty about this that I have pretty well given up hope.

He came home out of the blue for lunch last week. Said the rest of his group had gone out for another one's birthday. He chose to come home instead.

This should have made me happy. It did give me a little bit of hope. But he was so cold and distant and so obviously miserable the whole time he was here that I was left feeling the same way.

There was no argument or upset while he was here. Things were very polite and I thanked him for coming home instead of going out. Sent him a brief e-mail that afternoon telling him again that I appreciated his coming home and that I did feel a little better that day.

He ignored it.

Yes, technically, he's giving me what I asked for. But he makes it clear that it's nothing but misery and punishment for him. Imagine that -- being with me is "punishment." Choosing me is "paying for it."

Can't tell you how good that makes me feel.

***Ask him .... "What can we do so this works out for both of us? Let's come up with something together. It may take time, but I have confidsence we can do anything we set out minds and hearts to do."***

Anything that involves him giving up his power at work is going to be rejected out of hand. I don't know why he insists on this. I only know that he becomes furious if I dare try to "interfere," as in "ask that my feelings be considered and respected with the things he does there."

I am guilty here, too. I've pushed this much to hard and tried to hold on to a man who showed me long ago that he did not love me, did not want me, and saw no reason to consider my feelings instead of some bimbo's or some co-worker's feelings. But I had to try. And everytime I think "surely he won't let this happen -- surely he won't do this to me, he won't reject me like this" -- that's exactly what he does.

I'm just having a hard time swallowing it. I don't know how I could have misjudged someone so completely. I'm sure plenty of other posters here have felt the same.

Thank you for your response. I do appreciate it your taking the time to do this. I really should change my name to "Lost_Cause."

Well then, I guess all I have to say is:

Good luck and God bless

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pep -- This place is called "MarriageBuilders." I had to try. You are right, I am a failure. But at least I did try.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right, I am a failure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is with this?

I don't see anywhere that Pep called you a failure.

Susan

<small>[ October 05, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mulan:
<strong>Pep -- This place is called "MarriageBuilders." I had to try. You are right, I am a failure. But at least I did try.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you have thoughts of being a failure, then own those thoughts, and do not write those words here as if they came out of my mouth.

I know you are having a bad day .... here is my thought... once again ....

Good luck and God bless.....

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Mulan,
During the A, my H would tell me Sophia called and "it would be rude of me to hang up." I realize, looking back, that what he was telling me was that his feelings for her were more important than his feelings for me.

I asked my H, who thinks POJA is "ridiculous", "under what circumstances do you think that what you want is so important that it is worth hurting my feelings?" He didn't have an answer for that.

POJA is just finding a win-win solution. That's all it is. Win-lose means what I want is more important -- you bu... out.

Sometime you have to just look the WS in the eye and say, "You brought this on yourself. Live with it. You want freedom? Prove to me you can keep your pants zipped for 5 or 10 years and maybe I'll reconsider."

RRRRRGGGGH....

Frustrated doesn't even scrape the surface of what I felt when I read your pity plea statement a few posts back. Pep knows, and many have seen...playing poor me rubs me the wrong way.

Lady, I have no idea what kind of life you've had...but I could tell you stories about me. And you know what...just this weekend I was singing a tune while doing some cleaning...I looked outside and thought what a beautiful day it was...and felt sooo happy. I had to stop and wonder why it is that I feel so blessed, when so many others feel so empty and lost. But I already knew the answer to that, because it's what I learned THE HARD WAY sometime in our two year ordeal.

What I learned is pretty simple...It's your choice. It's my choice. Everyone makes their own choices. You choose misery and 'failure' and I choose to fight and persevere ESPECIALLY when things are at their worst. I always see the silver lining...I always find something to laugh about, even if it's tinged with pain and sarcasm. Life is too short...that's my motto.

The fact is you come here day after day, month after month, year after year...asking for help, giving us a sob story about how distraught you are and how horrible your hubby is to you, how you've tried everything etc... People give you advice and you proceed to negate every single thing everyone offers. I CAN'T do this and I WOULDN'T THINK of doing that. Well, there you have it. You HAVEN'T tried it all because you refuse to. So your situation remains the same because you refuse to do anything different.

Tell me something. What do YOU find attractive in a partner? Confidence? Someone who won't let other people walk all over them? Someone who knows what they deserve in life? Are you that person? How can you expect your husband to desire you and respect you when you aren't acting desireable and respectable?? When you won't back up your threats with actions?

What kind of person do you look for in a friend? Are you that person? What people do you admire...what do you admire about them? Do you do your best to attain those traits, or do you just envy them??

Yes Mulan, this IS marriagebuilders...but there are no magic wands and no templates to follow. It takes motivation and ACTION on YOUR PART to change your life. There is NOTHING we can do for you when you won't do anything for yourself.

I apologize if you're livid at this small toungue lashing...but I lived for years with an alcholic who loved to play Poor Me with me. I HATE THAT ATTITUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It just makes me so furious. I am SO GLAD I made the choice not to follow that path in my life. It's a miserable one.

As Pep said...Good Luck and God Bless.

And I hope you understand it is not YOU that I am upset with...it's your attitude.

I like what hope4future is saying.

Two summers ago, when Tom was telling me that Sophia was calling him and he missed her and maybe he would have married her 10 years ago if he had met her rather than marry me, I remember telling him that I realized that "my life is not dependent on what Sophia does."

It's taken two more years to realize "my life is not dependent on what Tom does."

Your H is showing little or no care for you or your feelings. Assume you can't change him. Your anger is an attempt to change him, and it just causes him to dig in his heels. He feels justified in continuing to do what he does because you are such a nut.

You won't convince him of anything. All you can do is decide whether you are willing to put up with his inconsiderate behavior until you die. I wouldn't, if I were you. It will only get worse. He'll test how far he can go, again and again. That off-site birthday party had the EXPECTED AND DESIRE RESPONSE. You got angry, he got furious, you proved yourself willing to tolerate this because you didn't leave.

I like what Harley says that the foundation of M must be a commitment of mutual care, not a commitment of "I'll stay with you no matter how badly you treat me". He isn't showing care. THE BALL IS IN YOUR COURT, NOT HIS.

I'm sorry you think my looking for alternatives is a "pity party."

I have said many times that I cannot leave because of my son.

I was just looking for some support and possible alternatives to a very bad situation.

Pep, I have a lot of respect for you, but I found your words very dismissive and condescending. They hurt.

Yes, I'm in pain. A lot of pain. I didn't mean to annoy anyone with it. I thought I might be safe here. I thought this was one place where I could talk about this. I don't have anyone else.

You tell me to leave. He tells me to "[censored] off and get out." I will do that as soon as I can.
I am not as strong as some and I wasn't smart enough to give up hope.

I am sorry I annoyed you all. Clearly I did since I am not able to walk out on my son. Why do I deserve to be chewed out for that?

Not everyone is going to be able to follow all of your instructions and be a success here -- that's what I meant by "I am a failure." Since I chose to stay in order to protect my son, the responsibility is mine -- but the pain does not go away. Sometimes it comes out here where I thought I would be safe. Why is that a "pity party?"

I have done as much as I could. I'm sorry I couldn't do it all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mulan:
<strong>I'm sorry you think my looking for alternatives is a "pity party."

I have said many times that I cannot leave because of my son.

I was just looking for some support and possible alternatives to a very bad situation.

Pep, I have a lot of respect for you, but I found your words very dismissive and condescending. They hurt.

Yes, I'm in pain. A lot of pain. I didn't mean to annoy anyone with it. I thought I might be safe here. I thought this was one place where I could talk about this. I don't have anyone else.

You tell me to leave. He tells me to "[censored] off and get out." I will do that as soon as I can.
I am not as strong as some and I wasn't smart enough to give up hope.

I am sorry I annoyed you all. Clearly I did since I am not able to walk out on my son. Why do I deserve to be chewed out for that?

Not everyone is going to be able to follow all of your instructions and be a success here -- that's what I meant by "I am a failure." Since I chose to stay in order to protect my son, the responsibility is mine -- but the pain does not go away. Sometimes it comes out here where I thought I would be safe. Why is that a "pity party?"

I have done as much as I could. I'm sorry I couldn't do it all.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know what .... you did not annoy me until THIS post!

I just felt I had nothing better to offer you .... and I said I had nothing left to say except good luck and God bless .... and YOU turned this simple and heart-felt comment of mine into some sort of attack against you ..... What the hell?

I cannot say good luck and God bless and just mean THAT??????

NOW I am officially annoyed with you.

I cannot help you. I don't have any better ideas at the moment. Sorry.

You got offended by my very innocent comment .... and I will NOT take ownership of that very weird interpretation.... if you want to get all in my face because I don't have any better ideas .... then just in case I forget to tell you .....

Take care of yourself, you're worth it.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mulan:

Pep, I have a lot of respect for you, but I found your words very dismissive and condescending. They hurt.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's a tip for you .... next time you think someone is being dismissive and condescending towards you ... why don't you verify first .... ask about intent. Your pain level is probably so immense that you cannot tell the difference between condescending tone and conciliatory tone.

I am sorry you are hurting so very much.

Pep

Mulan,

You and I got into it once as well - not over what I said but what you were frustrated with at home. That is not a slam or attack hon - an observation.

For about two weeks or so i have considered posting directly to you and asking you some things but on the last thread where we 'talked' you stopped responding.

I want to tell you what I see. I hope that you will read this entirely as it is meant - I see that you are really hurting, confused, frustrated, more than a little intimidated and... scared.

From reading your posts for 9 months or so there are a couple things that are clear, at least to me.

1. Your husband has cheated on you, belittled you and made you feel like it is all your fault.

2. You're not stupid - you are articulate and funny when H isn't driving you crazy.

3. Every longterm poster, Cerri, and others has suggested to you that after 10 years of his acting as he does it is probably time for Plan B but you are ADMANTLY opposed because of your son because he idolizes his dad and you really don't want to destroy that.

Please let me know if I missed.

I have a couple questions, I hope you will answer them - I ask not to cause more pain and hurt but because very seriously - i am concerned and saddened to see that 9 months from the first time i read a post of yours you are not moving forward and are still miserable. If nothing else, please understand that I would not waste time posting if I DID NOT care, kay?

Questions:

1. Is your H setting an example you are willing to have your son follow one day? I ask, because he absolutely will.

2. Do you believe that your husband has you completely buffaloed? By this I mean do you find yourself increasingly miserable and frustrated only to have him stomp on your 'silly' feelings and tell you that you are the one with the problem?

3. Can you live with him continuing to do what he has for 10 years?

4. Why do you believe that your son prevents your taking a firm stance and saying "ENOUGH'?

5. What do you think about the person you become when you are dealing with H versus the person you are inside?

6. Compare your life 5 years from now with him and without him IF NOTHING CHANGES - can you be happy with him?

I have some ideas - I would really like to hear your answers. Not to pick them apart or put you down but because i think answering them honestly and reading your own answers might help you. I certainly hope they do... I may be a smart aleck nuisance, but like it or not, i am a friend.