Just when you thought you had your thumb on me!

I've taken the advice of so many here over the weekend and made a monster effort at honesty and I took a monster beating.

She asked me every question in the book... and I answered all of them. It was ugly. No screaming or yelling... just ugly.

Then for icing on the cake... last night she opens a new round with the statement: "You need not feel so guilty for the pain you've caused me... I had an affair too... 4 years ago..."

I laughed. "Yeah... right." "Who was it?" I said. She refused to give him a name in order to protect him and his family... I laughed again... "oooo - look at me... 6'4" and 160 lbs of threat!" "I think you're just trying to see how I would react if you'd done such a thing."

Then it dawned on me... I remembered some things from back then that made some confusing parts of a puzzle I'd forgotten about fall into place. I told her I knew who he was. But I made her come clean. I told her about this guy from her past I'd had odd interactions with... like where he was very nervous around me... couldn't look me in the eye... clearly couldn't send me on my way fast enough...

I figured he just had a crush on her... She's quite stunning... I could understand that from a man... so though I thought it odd... I never thought any more of it than that. So... LOL... 4 years later. I said.. "how long?" she said... "about a year."

The title of the thread implies the arrogance of the artist... mine is on a par... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So she says... "do you care?" I said.. "4 Years ago I would have responded to this news differently... now I'm... I'm already struggling to find emotions for you that I worked for the last 7 months to push aside... It's not fair to ask me to answer that question now."

She said she didn't tell me because she was certain I would leave her. She said the difference between her A and mine is that for her it was just someone to talk to and sex. For me it was worse because I love the OW. She said, and if you recall from earlier threads, that "If you'd just been "f*g her, I would have understood..." Thats where the understanding would have come from... her own infidelity. LOL again... I can't stop laughing at the absurdity of it all... Bring on Jerry Springer... LOL ... holy God in heaven... unbelieveable.

In that moment when she said the name I had in my head I was angry... only for the confirmation. I did some pushups to cover the upset... I told her I wasn't thrilled at the news.

We kept talking as she sat on my bed in the basement and she kept voicing how she felt there was no point in continuing the charade... I concurred in that the life we have behind us now was a charade I have no desire to return to. I told her I want try to salvage this if it can be salvaged and that I won't just put on a mask of love in order to appease your prerequisites. I said I'll either find my way back to those emotions or I wont. But it gains us nothing for me to fake it.

She said.. "why is it so hard for you...? You found love for her instantly; yet you struggle to find an ounce for me as we speak." I said. "I don't know how many ways I can explain this to you." she said "try me." Then I spoke without a thought to the outcomes... I spoke my mind... "it's a battle between my heart and my mind."

She ran off crying at that. I understood why... And you know what folks...? I lay there in the dark and laughed quietly to myself at the insanity of my life.

-TMD WS&BS LOL

<small>[ October 06, 2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: -TMD ]</small>

This is not unexpected. You've had your eyes closed for so long .... a blind man uses his other senses ....

From Sting's new DVD "Sacred Love" .... cut 7

"Let's forget about the future...

and get on with the past"

Pep

things that make you go hhhhmmmmmm...

I don't know TMD...

It's seems to me she needs to apologize for her behaviors...

I honestly don't know what to tell you...

I guess what scares me is how easy it is to slip into or even be forced into power shifts..

while you are very familiar is being the
"all bad one"...while she ranted at you...
and she was "the good one"...
(but you did have a grasp on her not being the all good one...I still believe you that in your marriage did have periods where you tried very hard to meet her needs and build a partnership and she was very distant...)

does that match her affair time..?

oy-veh....
thank God for you AND Zoloft.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>things that make you go hhhhmmmmmm...

I don't know TMD...

It's seems to me she needs to apologize for her behaviors...

I honestly don't know what to tell you...

I guess what scares me is how easy it is to slip into or even be forced into power shifts..

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Yeah... I don't know either. Power shifts? What would be the point now?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

while you are very familiar is being the
"all bad one"...while she ranted at you...
and she was "the good one"...
(but you did have a grasp on her not being the all good one...I still believe you that in your marriage did have periods where you tried very hard to meet her needs and build a partnership and she was very distant...)

does that match her affair time..?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Yes. Though not in all cases. The holding hands, the walking arm in arm, the I Love Yous... the "little things" I complained were missing suddenly after our marriage were thrown out due to her feeling they were stupid and immature...

4 years ago? I was a couple years into my IT career and I was working 60 hour weeks to get that big promotion. HA! We'd been in separate bedrooms before then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>

oy-veh....
thank God for you AND Zoloft.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ October 06, 2003, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: -TMD ]</small>

So much for 2Long's revisionist history.

Looks to me like my history is one of conflicting schedules.

Oh... and you have to understand something...

Her A was acceptable because for her there was no LOVE involved.

I'm still the bad guy here... ok?

Oddly... I still feel like the bad guy. In most ways.. I still am.. It does make me rethink my direction in all of this though.

-TMD

<small>[ October 06, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: -TMD ]</small>

Just pass me the zoloft...

ARK

Geez louise -

I'm not sure what to say - I guess the immediate thought is...you are finally stripping away all the lies in your marriage - not just yours, but hers, as well, and as painful as this is for both of you, this is good...

You got to this point because of your commitment to honesty....

she felt it and knows she can fool you no longer...

your level of honesty with her requires the same level of commitment from her, which she delivered...

she wouldn't have delivered with her own confession if she didn't want it to work out with you...on a new and honest level...

she is still stuck in justifying her affair, though...just like you were...

there is no better or worse affair...which is better, to f**k someone without love just to be able to get their attention for awhile, or to betray your wife because she wasn't the one you really loved in the first place?

You said, "we were sleeping apart before her affair anyway" - is that true? And why? If that was so, do you think there was any reason other than you working 60 hour days that would have contributed to her having an affair? It sounds to me like she was lonely. And what if she is actually lying and maybe, just maybe, she really did love this guy....

You guys have each other...in all honesty...you have a chance to start at square one with each other...with neither of you being able to feel more self-righteous than the other, both equally wrong, both equally hurting...

What's clear is that you both still care about each other very much...

This wouldn't be happening...the masks coming off and the lies coming out into the open if it weren't supposed to be...to give you the chance to be humble before each other...

You make me cry...you have such a chance here, TMD...a far better chance than I have had to have the marriage you have always dreamed of...you have a woman who dared to trust you with her own mistakes...if you stay with this and keep pressing through the anger to what lies beneath...you will find love...I am sure of it...

Thank her for being honest...praise her for telling the truth...ask her all the questions you have to ask her to get her to talk about it...

But I worry about her...you have all of us to talk to...like Ark said...she has no-one to guide her...I really do worry at how alone she must be feeling...is she in counselling?

----

Also, TMD - thank you for thanking me earlier in the week - I didn't see it until several days after you posted, and I have stayed away from MB since then. I sometimes think about things for many days before I feel I can respond. I appreciated your kindness. I find it difficult to come to MB now, and am trying to stay away, for myself. I think its what I need to do right now. I am at a place where it is too painful to revisit the issue of infidelity on a daily basis - the last two years were incredibly stressful and I'm still struggling a bit to get back on my feet. But I also still see places where I think I could help - by saying something that I think needs to be said, that hasn't been said...

I know this is going to sound corny, but you know at the end of the Two Towers, where Frodo asks Sam why they are doing this, and Sam says "...because..because there is some good in the world...and its worth fighting for..." That's what I wanted to say to you...why have people come to your thread to try to help you and your wife?

Because they can see that - that there IS some good in you, and in your wife, and in your marriage and your life together, in your future together, that IS good, and that IS worth fighting for...even if the way for you looks dark right now...

You would not believe that last year, my husband and I were fighting with each other on the kitchen floor, that I punched him in the face, that he exploded at me with every expletive in the book - that we went through MONTHS of gut-wrenching anxiety and hostility - that we slept apart for months - that we tried to reconcile many times and failed - that our children were torn apart, hearing us fight - that we actually had NO love left for each other at all. Now we hold each other as tenderly as children. And we laugh a lot in each other's presence.

You said you never thought you would be indebted to nameless, faceless people, but I feel the same. It is a few just such nameless, faceless people that saved me and saved my marriage from despair.

You guys have a chance...give it time...the thing I learned was to sit on the crises...and wait as fast as you can...wait until you can cry together, instead of crying apart...when you get to that point, you will find that at least you have each other to hold each other.

God bless,
LIR

<small>[ October 06, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

TMD:

"So much for 2Long's revisionist history. "

No. You've both got revisionist history to live down.

This just made your life and your decisions a lot more complicated.

What are you going to do? Go back to drama with sarcasm?

It's your choice.

-Qfwfq

LIR -

Thank you for your words. I wish I had your vision of our potential.

Yes - My wife was lonely... we've established that in our frequent talks as of late.

I was not conversant... If you could imagine that... my responses to her were one or two words long. There were times like that. I'll admitt. She admitts to not being available to me and chalks her shortcomings to that exclusively and then focuses on my failings in the marriage. It's hard to shift her out of that mode.

I don't know LIR...

I'm not depressed about this. maybe that's the Zoloft... I don't know. But it still has me laughing.

Yeah... level playing field eh?

Hmmn... I'll keep talking... If I can...

She just called to inform me that I recieved notice that the poem I wrote for the OW will be published soon. So now I've told the world.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> She said she was excited for me until she read the poem. I'd left that detail out of our discussions. Great!

What next?

-TMD

P.S.
I understand you wanting to get away from MB. I want to as well. I'm more addicted to this forum than I am the OW at this point. UUUgh!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Qfwfq:
<strong>TMD:

"So much for 2Long's revisionist history. "

No. You've both got revisionist history to live down.

This just made your life and your decisions a lot more complicated.

What are you going to do? Go back to drama with sarcasm?

It's your choice.

-Qfwfq</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know yet.

No sarcasm was implied in my above statements.

The drama is just there. Kinda hard to escape that reality.

-TMD

TMD:

THIS is sarcastic:

"Her A was acceptable because for her there was no LOVE involved."

Think about it.

and THIS is sarcastic, too:

"I'm still the bad guy here... ok?
Oddly... I still feel like the bad guy. In most ways.. I still am.."

In a subtler way, perhaps, because you're being sarcastic about yourself. If you were a chick, I would tell you that you're NOT the bad guy, no matter what you've "done to your M" or "not done to help your M". Affairs don't happen in vacuums (though perhaps they should! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...maybe explosive decompression would put a damper on an A? - see? Now I'm being sarcastic!). We all "deserve" to live loving, happy, productive lives. You ARE NOT a bad person. Your M has just been given TWO wakeup calls. Think of them as opportunities for personal growth. Take the reigns! Come to think of it, I'd say that to you if you were a guy!

Look. I dropped off the forum friday because of the addictive nature of my interactions AND the timing of that relative to our place in recovery. I can doubly verify that by this and a few other posts I've done since then - I'm addicted. I freely admit it.

And it's hurting because I wouldn't have thought I was. And it's hurting because I realize that it's the DRAMA that I'm having the hardest time shaking right now.

Something to ponder as I try, once again, to "go away" for a while! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

-Qfwfq

OK -

Well listen folks... Since so much of my behavior has been so entrenched in addiction oriented actions... I'm going to help those who would feel the need to reply to me by trying to step off the map for a while myself. So Qfwfq and LIR?... If you're reading this... close that browser window and go kiss your spouse. If you're at work... close the browser window and call your spouse and tell him/her you love them. Give your significant other the MB energy. I'll try to do the same.

I'll drop a post in a week.

L8r g8rs

-TMD

It may be too late to respond to you -- you may already be off on your sabbatical from MB.....however I'll drop a quick one anyway.

I lived through this same scenario -- around the same time that my A was getting exposed, my H decided to come clean about the A he had in the first year we were married. Stunning isn't it?

You spend all this time crucifying yourself and you find out you're the original BS. I gotta say it didn't make a whole lotta difference in the outcome -- mine was a classic exit affair.

What I didn't allow to happen was a "whose affair was worse" contest to take place. For every comment he wanted to throw at me about loving OM, I could have spewed something about his affair. Why bother? They both sucked. Same type of situation as yours too -- his was just a physical thing, mine was more emotional.

I still left being the "bad guy". Because I had an affair and I didn't want to work on the marriage. And by the way, OM wasn't the answer either. I can hardly believe I had such a strong addiction to that person. So that stuff goes away, and you're left with the decision of what YOU want for YOU.

All things are equal?

I guess I'm just a woman...but I don't quite see things as being equal.

Her affair was not right...but she has told you she didn't love him. She is crying because of your very professed undying love for another woman. You don't think she's felt that for many years? That you don't really love her like she loves/loved you? I see her affair as an escape from constant rejection.

And now your most recent personal accomplishment...to be praised and prized...is yet one more rejection of your wife. Ouch. It seems to me....as a woman...that in choosing to love you, you're wife has given herself the biggest insult ever.

I ran when I felt rejected...as did my husband...it's a painful, painful thing. I truly feel for your wife...imperfect as she may be.

Folks let's not get into a pissing contest about whose affair was worse. BOTH were selfish, destructive and inexcusable no matter what the motivation. Railing against TMD is NOT going to help his or his wife's situation.