<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ARK
not "mean" at all, it helps to hear from a "third party" who is able to think clearly. I hope know one chekz my speling eather cuz I have no excuzzes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

Yes I am on anti D's and I run my tush off at the gym 4 or 5 X's/wk. I think the gym works better than the pills.
As I expalined my sit to my MD he said "no pill will help you through that". I keep taking them.

So I/we continue to to see the MFC together;I go to "group" 1/wk; I'm here everyday; church most Sundays. Keeping the communication "open btwn W and me (phone,e-mail,at home,spending time together,hugging my grandson...he's 16 mos born on my birthday) most of this is "recovery stuff" for me. All to try to put OW behind me. I have yet to see major results. Perhaps all of this will help to "dim" the past. I guess it is too soon. Funny, I can't help but wonder if OW has as big a struggle as me, for her sake I hope not.

I am about to go to bed. The weekend has been long. And I am back to dealing with "how much should I tell". W hasn't been sleeping well... she keeps "seeing" OW and I together (dreaming/daydreaming/obsessing). I am still trying to "rid" myself of OW and find myself plummetting, overly emotional...distant which sets up W's antanae. I have already confessed to struggeling with the whole OW emotional attachment and I don't think it makes things better to continue to confess my sins. W knows I am struggeling and that I am going to a group called "loss of rlationship" to somehow pry myself out of this mess. It seems the more I try "to forget" the more I remember. I hate to keep whinning about this. OW's method of unattaching from me is to "go it alone" (her words). She may have something there. I am beginning to think that all this "talk" just stirs the pot. My honesty is keeping my W up nights and I keep looking for an escape route,,, in the past it would be to OW now it is just to withdraw,,, out into the wilderness where I can just be with me and my own thoughts, to mourn alone so that I might be of use to myself and others. I can wait until next Sat when the Loss counselor is planning to help me with the grieving. He has been helpful and so has the group it is just so very hard to stay on track. You wanna know something else that is even crazier? I still can't seem to regret ever knowing OW! She became so important to me I regret losing her more than knowing her. I think this is bigger than all the Kings Men can fix

Hiker-

Just wanted to let you know that you're fighting the good fight. I'm not a WS but from what I've read, these withdrawal symptoms you describe will become much less painful over time if you stick to NC with the OW. If contact takes place, recovery becomes much more drawn out.

I noticed from your sig lines that you and your W have quite a history together with children and many years together. Keep in mind during your recovery that the alternative is also painful, painful beyond description. You have to experience D to know how difficult it can be. I was only married 8 years to my XWS, but I can tell you that over time the bad stuff seems to fall away and you're left with wistful feelings of all the good times.

L,
Thanks for the input. Yes we have a long history and there have been lots of battles we've fought together. The biggest one has been inside of me and I found a safe haven in OW. I could be totaly me with no strings attached. Now I do not have her and I must try to communicate those needs to W. I have spent most of my life in hiding from everything and everyone including myself. I didn't have to hide from OW she loved me for me not for some facade that I put up. It was cathartic in many ways. In our short history she saw Hiker for what he is and was still able to love him... I am still trying to like him

In your short relationship with ow, how were you able to let down the facade that you speak of? What did she say or do to make you know she was able to fully "know" you and "love" you for who you are? What would happen if you opened yourself up to your wife in the same manner?
I am asking these questions because it occurs to me as I read your thread that you may be "in love" with the idea of being loved, but are afraid to actually be fully known. Obviously your ow didn't love you as fully as you hope, because she is gone now. In my opinion, she gave you an illusion of love, which you now hang onto, and has crippled your ability to move on and love the woman you need to love fully. You are captivated and imprisoned and you hold the key...but you are too captivated with an illusion to come out and live as a free man.
Am I wrong? Just doing a quick read-through so it's very likely I am jumping to conclusions, but thought it was worth mentioning as a possibility. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

W2S,
I think that you are accurate...There are those, our MFC, who have said similar things to me such as I am in love with being in love or in love with the feeling and not so much the person, I guess that is what has been said. It was "too expensive" both for myself and OW to continue on in our relationship, too many other lives would be destroyed just so we could have a life together. Additionaly I am not sure just what OW was looking for in our relationship; I am not sure what needs I met for her. Part of what I gathered was she felt like she got married too early and missed out on some "fun". Sometimes I felt that she and her girlfriends were trying to live out an episode of "Sex In the City". I guess my episode ran out

This may not seem like such a huge "breakthrough" but I had a short discussion with W this AM on the phone. She isn't able to go to the gym, she feels, because that is where the A started. I have avoided talking about this because it is painful for her to even think of that place. There are multiple gyms and I helped her to find several that had schdules that fit within hers. Somehow she feels that OW is "winning" if W has to adjust her schdule to avoid seeing OW. This is tied into how much I should tell because she didn't know OW's ID. I let W know early on who OW was (8/00). W is just now willing to get back into exercising... I see this as a positive even though a small step it is a step in the right direction

Hiker, this example is another reason why its so important to let the BS know the identity of the OP. It would be cruel to let her go to the gym every day and see the OW, completely oblivious to her identity. Its a good thing that you did tell her.

And I can understand how she feels about having to be inconvenienced when she wasn't the one in the wrong. It's not fair, but life is not fair and that is part of the deal that your W settled for when she decided to stay and work this out. [don't tell her that, ok?]

Please give her a big hug and tell her how sorry you are she has to change her gym and how thankful you are that she gave you another chance. Just telling her that will hopefully make her feel like it's not all a waste of time. That will go a long way in soothing her feelings.

Hiker, As a BS I wanted to know everything. All details which I feel my H has not given yet. Though he says he has. There are many reasons I wanted to know. First off, imagination can be a lot worse than the truth at times. It can play hell with ones emotions and life.
Secondly, I felt my H was protecting OW and himself, not me! I'm sure he shared many confidences with OW, so lying to me or withholding was like shuting me out!
I believe if you're wife ask, tell her everything truthfully. You do her no favors by holding out.
See, the BS needs facts to lay it to rest! In my opinion. Otherwise, we spend years as I did on his first A, wondering, repressing until it effects our health. That threw me into 5 yrs of hellish depression when truth was found.
I would suggest you tell her she is safe to ask you anything she needs or wants to know. It may be a sacrifice on your part, but one well due her and will make you feel better in the long run.
When you withhold, you keep a very important part of yourself from the spouse. There is no such thing as privacy which my H used, between H and OW. Or if a betrayed H, then is wife and OM.
The invasion of privacy was on the other foot.
I've heard counselors say when you start to tell your spouse the truth and lie to the OP, then you are making strides that will bring you closer in your marriage. Closing that gap. Because in reality, all WS lie to spouse and usually confide in OP. Turn that around to draw you closer to your wife again.
As for OP. I'd like to say if you truly love your wife, take a real look at OW. Who do you think helped hurt your wife? Not just you! Without OW cooperation, there would have been no A, betrayal, lies and deceit. Look at OW as a parasite, even worse, a murderer out to kill your wife! Would you stand by and care about someone out to do bodily harm to your wife? I don't think so. But you allowed this OW to actually do worse than putting a gun to wifes head. That is how I felt about what my H did to me with OW.
It has taken over 2 yrs for me to feel my H finally sees OW in the light of day! He saw my pain, the grief, the whirling of my mind until there was no peace for me anywhere, anytime.
I truly needed to hear it all, and especially to hear him say he couldn't care less about her now. That she can drop dead, or go through turmoil of any kind and it isn't his problem. Nor would he bother to give her time of day if she contacted him again.
I needed that desperately in order to truly give him my love again.
Look at life around us. People do things that give them thrills, they enjoy, but is it something we can respect? Rape, murder, children killing parents, parents killing children, all for someones thrill and enjoyment. It's abhorrant to us! most of us anyway!
Same with your feelings for OW. She is not deserving because she was ready to see your whole family finished!I believe when any WS can truly look at the deed and character of OP, their intents and uncaring about the one you are supposed to love, then you can more easily let them go to perdition!
There can be no justification for OP or WS. But the WS has the chance to make amends, get on the right path and keep looking straight ahead.
Op was a sin in your life. A bad choice. Maybe you aren't religious, but if you have any faith, you will take a long look at the destruction OP was willing to see happen to you. Your soul, your life, your family.
Am I making sense to you? LOL Sorry, I hope so. You seem so willing and positive about making your marriage good again, and you and wife happy.
You will need your wifes forgiveness and for her to be able eventually to move past it all. Then you must do the same. You have to put the past, OW out of your life and mind for good.
When she comes to mind, replace it immediately with a loving thought of your wife. Picture your wife and all the loving, happy things you have shared before and will in future.
With practice, you can soon forget OW existed. Or at least look at it as a very bad experience. Which is was!
Happiness is in wanting what you have! There is no room for privacy with a couple who are supposed to be one from the day they marry. Share all, the good, bad and ugly!
God bless, LouLou

Hiker,

Please consider downloading the questionnaires from this site. There are 2 - Emotional Needs, and Love Busters. The Book His Needs, Her Needs, can be purchased from the bookstore here.

Taking action, to rebuild your marriage by finding out what was missing is a great step to help your wife rebuild her trust in you.

You've got to get educated on affairs and more importantly the recovery from affairs. It will be the best gift you can give your life.

I'm not associated with the Harley's; just saved myself alot of pain by putting their methods into motion.

Surviving An Affair is a must-read too. Excerpts on all I've mentioned are right here at MB.

I too was one of the BS's who needed to hear all the details. 19 months later into recovery I'm glad I did, because I know there are no more surprises in store for me. Blessings CSue

NB,
Thanks for your input. Much of what you said my W has said especially,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hiker, As a BS I wanted to know everything. All details .... First off, imagination can be a lot worse than the truth .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My w asked for every detail

[/QUOTE]Secondly, I felt my H was protecting OW and himself, not me! I'm sure he shared many confidences with OW, [QUOTE]

I did admit to trying to protect OW to my W. I thought, and continue o think, that we, my w and I, were much better equipped to handle the A. I did not expect recovery to be easy but from what I gathered from OW was that her S would "not give her a chance" if he found out about the A. I cared for OW and I still do. I do not want to see her destroyed. Additionally she, OW, asked for NC because it "wasn't fair to our spouses". I complied because it was destructive to me and my M to continue to have contact. I know intellectually that this is true. I also know that under the layers of silence I still love my W. When I understand better why the affair occured I will be able to fully devote myself to my W. The A was not about my W it was about me and what is missing within me.
H

Csue.
Thanks for he suggestions. We've read sveral things some by Harley and some by others. We are committed to making our M work. We have made some progress and we both know there is still work to be done.
We've done the emotional needs questionnaire. I copied it and will re do it just to see how we are doing.
H

I read this from the recovery site today and it really spells it out why an A should be out in the open and honesty prevailing...

Recovery To Do list

Hiker, you stated you were able to be yourself with OW. I think it's time you were yourself with your W. After all, she has seen the good, bad and the ugly and she's still with you so she is the one who loves you truly!
You know why it's so easy to be relaxed and feel you can let it all out with OP? THEY DON'T HAVE TO LIVE WITH YOU 24/7
You're truly not in a commited relationship with OW. She isn't going to have to get up with your sick children, or you. Cook and clean for you, and worry through the bills and responsibilities.
Most times the time with OP is all romance and no responsibility! Now couldn't we all be happy little campers if that's all we had to do?
I guarantee if you were to leave and marry OW, you'd soon find yourself in the same circumstances as you are with W.
There is a day at disneyland, then one has to come home and go back to the grind! And life isn't set up so one can spend their entire life in fantasyland.
Your wife is going to suffer just as I did with the nightmares and pain until the day you can truthfully tell her OW means nothing anymore to you. I'm glad to read you are going for counseling in that area.
I hope a wise counselor will point out to you the worthiness of your marriage, and your wife over the OW and an A.
Let me say this as a woman. Love is the most important thing in life to me. Feeling special to one person is like oxygen to me.
IF, and that's if because I wouldn't, were to ever find another man I loved, and he made me so happy, I'd fight hell and deep waters to stay with him. I'd have walked and done whatever was neccesary to be in his life.
So for those who say to another that you are their soul mate, but can't leave due to yada yada, kids, money, homes, spouses, it's all a facade! Because if it was real, nothing else would matter over it!
Of course, we're talking some pretty low jerks to do that, but hey, I'd tell my H right up front and be gone!
NOthing is real about an A. It's all smoke and mirrors. There is no bond like one has in the marriage. The BS is the one who would be there holding your hand if you were ill, or dying or in need.
So perhaps one day when you can look at OW as you would your wife if she was cheating on you? What would you think if your wife was having an A?
Would your respect her? Would you consider her a good example for your children? Would it be ok for her to hurt you and betray you because OM was nice and not a bad person? And he was making her feel good because he loved her for herself?
Would her being in love with him make it ok with you?
Answer this honestly to yourself. I certainly know my H would consider me the biggest Wh--- and sleaze bag around. Yet, OW did same thing and he couldn't look at her as those things. Sigh!
Double standards.
I think if a WS to truly get help forgetting OP they are going to have to see them in reality. Just as they would consider anyone else in society doing the same thing.
If this was your buddies wife? You'd not think highly of her would you? Your brothers wife if you have a brother? Your sons wife? Cheating on him?
when you can see the whole picture, you should be able to look at OW with disgust!
Hope you can do this for yourself and your wife. Until My H could tell me he couldn't care less about OW now, and disgusted with himself for being with her, I was unable to find any happiness. And I told him, if he still had feelings for her now, I'd divorce him. I can't live that way. I had to at least feel the specialness was back to some degree. It won't ever be the same. But I needed some of it. And that means I wanted, needed my H to love only me. To put me above all others.
Some of us just can't accept less and we shouldn't. Because we deserve happiness also.
Good luck in your recovery class of letting go. This is going to be one of the biggest breakthroughs for you. And a very necessary one.
One point here, Start to think of the OW in terms if she had been your wife doing this. And stop the thoughts of how nice it was or fun, and feeling good. Look at it as the sin taking control to destroy your life and soul.
Just because it felt good, didn't make it right. Those are the thoughts you have to control. Screaming out loud to stop if you have to.
I am sorry you are stuggling with this. I understand it causes you pain as well. But you are the one who has to control the thoughts and quit remembering things as all good, and look at the bad.
Good luck, LouLou

SMI and Lou Lou,
I've have read both of your posts and the "To Do list for WS". I found myself nodding to your suggestions of what is needed to repair the damage that has been done because of the A.

I realize that the A was really a fantasy and that the feelings that I have for OW are tied up in that fantasy. I am trying to understand just what it is that is within me that caused me to feel that there was something missing and I somehow needed to fill in that "void" with OW.

To help to rebuild the trust that I destroyed I have shared the whole truth to my W. She thinks that because I had kept back information originally that I am still keeping back things now. That is not the case but I am willing to go back over details, records and even visit locations if that is what she requests.

I am accountable in every way for my time, finances, phone and e-mail. If there are things that need to be added to the list I will do that too.

I have more to say but I'll have to post it later. But thank you for your comments and advice my desire is to regain that which I've lost.
H

Hiker! I'm so proud of you for being completely honest with your beautiful wife!! Huge congrats are in order to you--you have successfully negotiated the soul-killing land of "fog".
Don't be discouraged that she thinks you may be withholding details still--it is a veeerrryy normal part of putting together the pieces, and knowing what to trust after experiencing the hard,life-shattering reality of an affair.
Give her time...and undying love! You go guy.

Hiker, a suggestion Dr. Phil makes. Do a complete autopsy on the marriage as it was prior to A.
Though nothing justifys, it helps pin down what void you felt.
I know I had a lot of depression which My H just expected doctors to fix me, doing nothing I needed from him. But this scenario caused a lot of turmoil in our life. Arguments, stress due to another A he had that sent me into depression 18 yrs later! That's why truth is a must and you sound more than willing.
Whatever need you felt not being met by wife, I can assure you she can meet it and more!
But you have to pin that down first.
Children? Were they getting more attention? They are demanding. Lack of romance? Old routines we fall into make us forget to do the things we did when newly together. Lot of stresses in a marriage of work, finances, raising children, interference from friends, family, etc.
Time to make you and her a priority. Put some time into courting again.
Let's face it, usually a person in an A, spends extra money going out, buying things, dinners, dancing, flowers, gifts. Yet at home they say the bills must come first and ignore doing this same thing for the spouse.
Try doing the same things with your W. Get aways, private time doesn't cost anymore for the spouse than the OP!
You fail to take time out each week to talk to each other? Just two?
OW listen to your problems and made you think a sympathetic ear? But some of those complaints were about marriage, spouse?
Try sharing confidences with the wife. Open up, be you! Join together in a hobby.
Make it interesting and fun.
Nothing like going to a motel or hotel for a weekend either to perk up the romance!
I think most A's thirve on the total feeling of no responsibility for the time with OP.
That's what makes it so fun! I know my H said he forgot all responsibilities, but then he knew I was taking care of it all! NOT fair either.
The bottom line, if an WS winds up permanent with OP, the old routine sets in as well and you're right back to sqaure 1!
In an A, you owe each other nothing, it's like dating and freedom. You have you fun, you got home and think only of how nice it was to be free of all the daily problems. Well, the spouse would like some free time away too.
Somewhere, if you examine closely and each make a list of what you felt unmet needs, you'll identify the problem that made you feel a void.
Sex? Hey, take the time to make love! With wife!
If you were paying for that privacy elsewhere, spend it on her!
I used to suggest we get away every couple of months for at least a night or two. H always said bills to pay, worried about money. But hey, he found a few thousand to fly across country twice and rent luxury accommodations and meals out and fun for them! Weird huh, how it shows up when it's important. Which made me feel very unimportant.
Make that list and you'll find both have unmet needs or feel it so.
Good luck, LouLou

Hello Lou lou,
You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I had a lot of depression which My H just expected doctors to fix me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although W is taking anti-D's I don't think there is any pill or DR that can "fix" her...I think most of the work is between she and I.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever need you felt not being met by wife, I can assure you she can meet it and more!
But you have to pin that down first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the biggest challenges.

Thanks for the encouragement and the suggestions. We are making progress
H



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever need you felt not being met by wife, I can assure you she can meet it and more!
But you have to pin that down first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try sharing confidences with the wife. Open up, be you!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sharing now but I was afraid to share before the A

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The bottom line, if an WS winds up permanent with OP, the old routine sets in as well and you're right back to sqaure 1!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know... The A was very much a fantasy

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Hiker ]</small>