Mimi,

You will not recognize me, but trust that I am an MB'er who has been here for a while. Have posted to you, and you to me. Have changed my ID for a good reason. Maybe some day I can disclose that; not for now.

Mimi, I am SO MUCH thinking and praying for you. I have watched your strength develop, your Plan B succeed. I am very happy you have talked to Steve. His wisdom and experience are invaluable.

We are all here for you. Keep your chin up. Mortarman is right; you can get past this speed bump!

Please keep us posted.

*S*

Well, girl. I told you it was going to be rough, didnt I?

It aint over until its over, Mimi. Calm down. I did the same things when my wife got all crazy and threatening to leave, and telling me this was a mistake. But it has been going back to Steve that has made all the difference because he is able to guide me through the minefield.

Shoot, my wife's first day off in over a month and you know what she did first thing this morning? She sat down and did her homework (Steve had us do the EN questionaires again, as well as the recreational quetionaire. I didnt even ask her. While I was at work, she just sat down and did them. And I was a bit surprised at some of the changes to her top ones, because she had done this a year ago when in the middle of the A and her top needs were somewhat different. So, I saw her questionaires this evening, and it has given me pause to think that I havent been meeting the RIGHT needs anymore. That due to the changes in what has happened, two of her top five are brand new, and two that used to be top five have fallen down. So I have spent a lot of time concentrating on them, not knowing that things have changed.

Anyway, keep the Steve appointments very regular. We get paid every two weeks, and we are having an appointment right after every payday. It keeps me sane, and it keeps her moving.

Like I said, this is a bumpy ride. At first, you will panic. I am six months into it, and I no longr panic (a little anxious though) when she goes off or goes into depression. I just stick to my guns, and ride it out. Invariably, every time we go through this, it gets a little better. And we are both becoming more comfortable. Walls are starting to come down, which at times, causes increased anxiety, stress, pain, hurt, etc. It's like peeling back an onion, just to find more onion.

So, take a hot shower. Give a really good prayer to God for looking out for you. And be prepared...this aint over by a long shot. But all and all...you handled this first "speed bump" in the road rather well!

In His arms.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mimi,

I have to agree with Steve.

I ended up giving total control over to my FWS with the kids. I told them that he was the boss, that whatever he decided, that was what would happen.

My kids both would work one against the other big time. They would work both sides against the middle and it did nothing but cause grief.

My H had a great need to be the decision maker, and I let him do that. It meant a great deal to him.

He still kids me about it and asks, who's the boss, and I say you are. Things are MUCH better in our house.

I'm not saying it wasn't tough. It was, and my daughter resented it for a long time. And even if I feel my H makes the wrong decision, I go with it. He is the boss. This really was one of his top EN's. And if you don't know what to do with your son, then let your H deal with him. And back him up.

Praying for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Mimi,
Keep us posted! Listen to Steve. He is so helpful. This is a bumpy road.
Mortarman, I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your thoughtful post and your willingness to share your situation with us.
You have an amazing ability to understand these things. I think your post was dead on. I will save it, in hopes that I will someday be in recovery. (My situation is on the PlanA/B board)
I am thinking about you, Mimi! {{{hugs}}}

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: SusanBT ]</small>

Mimi .... here's some "back story"....

I found most of my H's parenting skills lacking (years prior to his A). He was a playful fun Dad, but never very consistent as a disiplinarian. When he did disipline, usually he was way too harsh for age appropriateness.

And, he was a drinker at the time ..... when he disiplined he sometimes was "lit" and this made his parenting erratic. So I took control. At first in subtle ways, later just out in the open took the reins from him .... even when H was mid-sentence! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

H works in the film industry, so... he would sometimes be absent for weeks, and return home after I had established certain house rules .... and H would try to enforce different house rules while he was home.

After awhile, I treated H like a "guest" more than an authority figure. Sometimes, I felt I had to protect the kids from his erratic authority. His drinking. His immaturity. So, I gradually took over as PARENT .... and in many ways, I parented my H.

This backfired in several ways.
Our strong-willed child played both ends against the middle ... increasing the family tension.
H felt like an outsider in his own home.
I was no longer his loving wife, but the resident authoritarian.
I lost respect for H as a man.
H lost his desire for me as a woman.

I think one of the reasons I did not discover the A earlier .... I was too busy being house manager .... and I was really not paying attention to him .... and he was becoming less and less important to me.

The A was enchanting for my H. She loved him ...* just as he was* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .... except that she had no idea he was a functional, active alcoholic. He never got drunk around her. The fantasy of who he was .... this charming, very funny and entertaining guy .... looked very inviting to her .... except for his bad moods (which she never saw) and his disgusting personal habits (which she never saw) and his massive insecurity (which she never saw) .... but, I digress.

A few months after the A was exposed ..... I became non-functional for awhile. And H HAD TO take over as house manager, and parent. I would wake up at 2 AM unable to sleep ... get in my car and leave town .... no note, just drive up the coast and wander for a day or 2. So, H was in charge.

And, you know what? He did OK. He didn't do things "my way" .... but they were OK. No one died or was scarred for life while I was running away for days at a time.

About a year into our M recovery, our eldest had his first mental breakdown. H and I were suddenly on the same team .... and our goal was to get well as a family. We went to parenting classes together. Then we went to family group therapy together.

This opened up an opportunity for healthy change. We grabbed that opportunity and held on. It was very rough at first ... because I still did not trust my H's parenting .... based on his past drinking, and I had to disipline myself not to jump in too quickly .... not to rescue what I thought was a poor parenting event.

So .... here it is .... MY POINT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If you trust that your H will not do actual damage .... then leave them alone together. If there is a history of verbal abuse, neglect, or otherwise risky parenting .... tell Steve what your specific concerns are. And ask for guidance.

I highly recommend family therapy and/or parenting classes. being on the same team as parents .... it is soooo much better.

I had the impression .... on one of your earlier posts .... that your H was sometimes verbally cruel to your son. I got the impression that your H did not want to be a father .... and wanted your son "out of the house" .... or at least communicated that he's be happier and that things would be better if H just had YOU all to himself.

Is this accurate or not?
Is Steve aware of this problem , if it is accurate?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

This is very confusing.

H flip-flops from being reasonable to being irrational.

The reasonable side has sound parenting strategies, says he will take over leadership now as recommended by Steve, etc.

The irrational side is refusing to intervene now, sees the situation as hopeless and insists that I continue to parent on my own.

This flip-flop can occur midsentence as if there are two sides to him.

Just now he went jogging and gave instruction for me to tell son to complete a major task. The rule according to Steve was for him to take leadership and give son direction. He adamantly refused to do it. I had decided to back out today for good because this was continuing to go on yesterday, him telling me to tell son to do things. I told Steve this, that husband refuses to take leadership. On the phone, H said that I won't let him. I have been trying to let him. You see what is happening. He is refusing to accept the lead. He said that it seems PHONY.

I went along with him and instructed my son to do the job. Son complied. However, this seems like a setup fot the same dynamic to continue in the family.

PEP:
Your situation sounds exactly like what happened in my family!!! My H continues to want me to be the manager though. Why is he continuing to try to make this work although that's what led him into the A in the first place. Is that part of the plan to justify going back to the OW?

You see, from my understanding, she has the authoritarian approach with her daughter that he likes. He does not have to assume the leadership position with her daughter. He has made it clear to me that he does not like her daughter. He likes to see her do it and of course I've been failing miserably at being authoriarian. Steve says that's the way I need to be but it is so hard for me for some reason.

Help! I'm confused.

Mimi,
I don't have any advice/words of wisdom to you this morning. The other posters have said some amazing things on this thread!

I'm sorry for all that you're going through, but I'm full of joy that you're both working on the marriage together, although I know it is a struggle. Time and patience, as our JL says!

Know that you and your husband are in my prayers.

H_P

Mimi .... unless there is danger or harm being done .... back away from interfering with any parenting decisions your H has made. Do not enforce. Just stand back.

Only discuss parenting with your H when your son is NOT around.

If son wants to discuss something with you in private, ask him... "Did you discuss this with your dad yet?" If he did .... then refer back to dad.

Pep

I don't really know what to do right now! I feel desperate.

H is on a rant about all the awful things I did to lead him into the A, even saying he is not sorry about having the A. It feels like he is stabbing me with a knife. I end up sobbing.

He says he refuses to take over leadership role with the children even though he said he would do this with Steve.

My son asked to go out. I got sucked into making the decision about curfew because H refused. S tested the limit, calling asking to stay later. H is even madder. It was a set-up!!!

I just told him that regardless of what he says I am not making anymore parenting decisions. I'm on vacation.

I am feeling so beat up and want to give up. Why did he come back to beat up on me?

This really hurts.

HELP!!!

Orchid is right.

Am usually on d/d.

He is pushing you away and wanting you to kick him out.

Do plan B and now.

Do not contact him. Go dark as pepper says.

let him have her.

Oh, and I was told the EXACT SAME THINGS AND HE DID THE SAME THINGS. It is like a script.

And the OW is younger here too. But definitely not better unless you like anorexic surgically enhanced illegitimate-child bearing morally defunct and uneducated buttfloss models.

Get strong. No more of the "I am going to kill me or OW or anybody" poop ok.

Get tough. Say I've had it. Do the Divorce busting 180 for starters along with the plan B. Let her have him. They will LB on each other. Ask Orchid about the phone call I got from Family Values, the OW about 2 mos. ago...Seems that he's cheating on her and being just as bad to her as he was to me in the end...and it took only six months for them to get there...and ours happened after seven years together...

they will LB fast. Why? He never faced his demons and really changed. He will self destruct faster with her.

But this isn't your problem. Go plan B and very dark. Fly low and silent under radar my dear. Ride the waves and know it may take quite a while. I am divorced and still somewhat in plan B but he's going nutso right now.

Had somebody (can anybody guess) access my voicemail on thurs. night from a remote location. had to change my code. He doesn't know whwat I am up to and if I am dating or anything. Huge mystery to him.

Don't throw H out- you would be playing into his agenda. Ignore his comments about how it would be better with OW (if it was so great, why did he come home?)

This may be extreme, but if you could take the time off from work, I would have a "mini- breakdown". Leave the house with H in it, with responsibility for son. Tell H you need time by yourself or you will crack up. Then go off somewhere, a friend's, a B&B, whereever. In effect this is what Pepper did to her H and her son and judging from her post, it worked.

Your H has this fantasy that he is not responsible for son- well, he is. He is also playing a game with you. A blame game- setting you up to fail. Making you enforce his limits on your own without his help. I think perhaps he is setting you up to fail to justify his own behavior. "She favored son over me, so I can leave without guilt". You have to pull away from this game, don't let yourself get caught in the middle. Leave if need be- always letting him know where you are. Even if it is only for one night, it will rock his world. In his mind- he can leave, your job is to wait. Make it clear that if he treats you badly, you will not interact with him.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by justpeachy:

Do not contact him. Go dark as pepper says.

Sorry if my meaning was not clear ... I actually meant that if HE decides to leave and go back to OW .... then I think Mimi should go VERY DARK.

But, not kick him out.

Pep

Mimi,
Just want you to know that I am following and feel for you. YOu are getting good advice.
Stay strong. Do not give up!
I'm sending you good thoughts and hugs!

Yesterday I did end up parenting but S complied with all my commands. H could not use this as an excuse. S seems to know the game H is playing. I know I should not give S that power but it is true that H seemed to be setting me up to fail.

It's clear that he wants me to "let him go" or sanction his leaving. He's saying, "I want to start over again"; "what do you want to do?"; "Don't you want to start over again with somebody that really loves you?" "What do your MB friends say? "Don't they tell you to do that".

I have remained steadfast in indicating that I want the marriage, that he is going through withdrawal, that I'm not going to be supportive of his personal ruin, that I'm willing to wait, that it's his choice not to really work on recovery, etc. He went jogging!!!

It's hard though not to just give up. It's so discouraging that we have come so far for him to do this. I also told him that he would have to figure out how to go about this. I'm not going to work it out for him, where he would stay and I would not wish him well with OW. You see, this time it will be clear to him that he is leaving me to lead an immoral life with a sleaze.

Last night he asked wasn't I being IMMORAL when I disrespected him in the marriage and did not give him attention, etc. I said that I was wrong and was not being a good wife but what I did was NOT IMMORAL . I said that it is immoral to live with a woman who is not your wife.

HELP!!!!

Mimi,

Please calm down! I keep telling you...YOUR HUSBAND IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT MY WIFE HAS DONE AND IS STILL DOING, TO AN EXTENT! Did you hear that now?

Listen...my wife even over the great week we have hadthis last week, asked me yesterday if it wouldnt be easier to start over without the baggage. Sound familiar? I just told her that she is looking at one side ofthe coin. That there is baggage because of everything that has happened...but there is another side to us. She smiled and backed down.

I have told you, and Steve has told both of us, that our WSs HAVE TO go through this. Mife wife is constantly going back and forth. A week ago, she wakes me up at 4am as she is getting ready for work to tell me that this wont work and she wants adivorce. And she said straight out that she wanted me to help her get it. I told her that I wouldnt, and that I still believed in us.

Now, a week later, she is hugging on me...and even talking about SF last night. This morning I got up with her at 5am and sat and talked with her while she got ready. I even went out and warmed up her car. No problems this morning. She was very affectionate, and even commented on how much she loved me getting up and hanging out with her.

Remember that "wrong sandwich" I talked about? Your husband, nor my wife, want to eat it. It is nasty. It is full of guilt, pain, and heartache. And they have to experience EVERY bite.

Your husband will try cop out for awhile now. He will tell you that X is the problem, you'll fix it...and he will then tell you Y is the problem. This is to get you to take away him having to deal with this...and to get you so frustrated that you will give up and take that sandwich away for him.

But I am learning that I just have to let my wife go through this. To just sit back, be as good a husband as I can, and not try to take her pain away. That when she spouts off, or wants to talk...that I just listen. Part of this is them working this out. And part of that working things out is them talking things out.

You see...they gave up everything for that drug. They believed that the fog world was reality. Then reality came back...and now they dont trust themselves. They cant believe themselves on what their senses are telling them. So, they spout off with this crap one minute, and hope you will agree. When you dont, then they settle down, confident that maybe you are right about the marriage. And then they try that for awhile.

As long as you keep the same message going, he will begin to trust it. As Steve said to me recently...I have to create an environment of trust. That is done by things remaining the same...me remaining the same. So that my wife can begin to trust me and what is going on. If I blow up, or show that I might want to give up also, it will only scare her...and confirm to her that this isnt real.

It's kind of funny thinking of us trying to get our WSs to trust us. But they must be able to trust in reality again. And only we can foster that through remaining steadfast to the truth. What also helps is having someone outside the picture (Steve) that can help guid your husband into seeing and trusting reality again.

Mimi, hang tough. You know the truth.Let it show to him. Dont educate him. If he wants to know what your MB friends have to say...then send him here. Tell him there are plenty of FWSs on here that would love to talk to him. But dont educate him. Let Steve do that.

You show through your love and your actions, what the truth is. You show your husband what strength is..,that you do believe in what you have been saying.

On the son issue...just keep going. He wants his role back, but unwilling to make the effort. Fine. You just keep trying. Keep defering to him what he should be taking care of. For awhile, he wont...but he will blame you for itnot working. But he will KNOW in the back of his mind that you have handed over the reigns...thru your actions. And over time, he will realize that it is not you at all anymore...that he has still been believing the lie.

Hang tough Mimi. My wife is a few months ahead of your husband, and I think she is just now ready to accept some of reality. And she is just now making efforts on her own to meet my needs and do what it takes to make this work. She is slowly beginning to trust who I am and who she is with me. Your husband will also, if you will remain loving and consistent (notice I didnt say "doormat.").

In His arms.

You don't know what to do?

Mimi, for God's sake ..... CALM DOWN!

This up and down is normal. If you react in a panic every time he goes all wacky-WS on you .... you'll blow a fuse on your immune system and get sick!

Stay calm ..... you don't have to DO something to FIX his erratic mood swings ....

Follow your principles .... and stay true to your plan .... you cannot control this situation ..... YOU JUST HAVE TO LIVE THROUGH IT AS BEST YOU CAN!

STAY CALM

Pep

Oh, one more thing...he talked about the immoral thing. He wanted you to take a bite of the "wrong/guilt sandwich." You see, he was immoral. But, he wants you to be immoral with him, to make him feel better.

The problem is, Mimi...you cannot win that argument. When you know that he is trying to pawn things off on you, or to try to rile you up in order to make him feel justified...do not play.

Want to know the best advice I have heard in this crazy time? When he starts doing that...dont answer...just ask questions. Wantan example?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Last night he asked wasn't I being IMMORAL when I disrespected him in the marriage and did not give him attention, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is your answer to this:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey, what is your definition of immorality?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi...MAKE HIM ANSWER HIS OWN QUESTIONS!!! When it comes from you, it sounds like criticism...like you trying to educate him. When it comes out of his own mouth, then he will hear how silly he sounds.

In His arms.

NO, CHRIS! Please tell me what you are thinking.

I'm trying to hang tough like MM is saying.

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks for being there, guys.

I'll try to calm down.

I'm HORRIFIED AT THE THOUGHT of being left again.

The thought is devastating.

I know I'll make it somehow, though, with God's help.

Please keep the support coming. I really need to check in with you guys today.

THANKS FOR BEING THERE!!!!