Due to yet another betrayal I have no option but to change my screen name.

I used GinnyF as that was my nickname as a child.

Unfortunately I shared with my SIL about the valuable insight and information that I get from MB. I also recommended this site to her as she is having problems in her marriage, I also gave her my screen name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I was hit with a 2x4 this weekend when this SIL informed me in not so many words that as I am d"vorced now, nothing is stopping her from becoming friends with OW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

In her words "I can learn so much from OW as she grew up in completely different circumstances that we have grown up in our country". Even suggested that her daughter visits with my children when they go and see their dad again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I had to put into practice my MB principles with her. Listened, said I understood that it was her husbands, brother and blood was thicker than water.

So yet again I was betrayed but this time round I was in control. Thanked her for supporting me during my times of trial. Spend the afternoon with her even though I felt like "smashing her face" Prayed, hard for the afternoon to end.

As I closed my front door - All that pent up emotions came rushing back. Anger, resentment, grief, sadness and I know acceptance will be next. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So as with my Xwh, I am applying MB principles yet again in different circumstances.

PLAN B; PLAN B; PLAN B; PLAN B; the outlaws.

Oh. well you are never too old to learn life lessons. This one is "Who can be trusted"

This is always a tough call ginny..er transformed. You acknowledge she was a good friend when you needed such...and she was "honest" enough to tell you her intent at this time up front (that is a good thing...right?). Your issue seems to be related to a common need on the part of bs to make what happend to you the defining issue for yourself, and all other parties (ie ws, op, family/friends etc.). While understandable, it is inappropriate, and unhealthy for you. I know nothing about the specifics of what happened to you, or anything about the ow, wh, ect. It could be she is a despicable woman, and whether she had ever been involved in an affair, be an unworthy individual...and that is my point. You should judge people by all their behaviour, and characteristics. A bs expecting an op to be ostracized simply cause they were an op is essentially vindictiveness. You would not want to be judged solely by your shortcomings either...right? It makes very good sense to apply NC to an op when a couple decides to reconcille... but it makes no sense to expect that if the marriage ends. The whyfores of human attraction are murky at best, while it is fashionable to demonize op, it is wrong to do so, on that basis alone...especially since everyone is a potential ws/op a fact psychologists are in complete agreement on.

Affairs are simply "normal" human behaviour (our hardwiring as a social species) in an inappropriate circumstance (by social definition/mores). An op may be a totally evil predator or they be a perfectly fine individual who made a mistake in judgement, and everything in-between.... just like anyone else. It is appropriate to include in our assessment of those we choose to associate with, a consideration of behaviour...have they been in jail?, have they been abusive?, are they trustworthy?, are they selfish?, do they exhibit good/bad judgement... clearly an affair experience needs to be looked at and understood in that assessment as well (both the ws, and then bs behaviour as well as the op)....like many other things, any of these individuals may have had very undesireable things revealed by this experience....if so, what did they do about it. Did they grow? Change? get better or worse? No way to say without examining the circumstances and outcome.

I don't think it makes any sense, or is healthy to blame anyone for a marriage (or any relationship) ending. IMO relationships only make sense if they are totally voluntary. So by definition they cannot end unless at least one party wants it too, and no op can "make" someone leave a marriage if they don't want that outcome. In fact, affairs statistically rarely end marriages...they end because of the people in them. I don't know if you "blame" this ow, or what kind of person she is, and whether you would find value in her if you did not have a personal animus with her...but whatever she is, she should be judged by her totality...and apparently your SIL feels she has discharged her loyalty to you WHILE you were married, and has a right to pick her relationships without needing your approval...she sounds like a well-balanced person. It would be wrong of her participate in your animus, thereby enabling some sort of lifetime feud with this individual. On the other hand, if this person really is a bad person, and your SIL cannot see this, then it raises the question of why would you want to continue a friendship with SIL who apparently is unsafe...do you see my point in all this....it is not about the past, your understandable negative feelings about ow, it is about what is the rational reality.

A person who has an affair has to (IMO) restablish that they are a trustworthy individual in general, and that they can make good judgements. This starts with what did they learn, if they clearly have come to understand how innocent friendships/attractions escalate to out of control romantic interests, and are determined to apply this expensive life lesson so as to not have a repeat....and if they have increased their understanding of how healthy relationships work, and what personal issues they may have (and a determination to improve same), then an op (and bs, ws as well) will be ok, and are safe worthy people (at least on that score)....if they have not learned these lessons, that is (and should be) a serious concern for anyone choosing a relationship (romantic or friendship) with them.

Do not ask or expect your SIL to have some kind of blind loyalty to your discomfort. Assess your circumstances (when you are able) without the emotional anger response you have to the disruption this ow represents in your life. People can (and often do) come to understandings with, even friendships with those who intially have in some form done them harm. If that is not the case here, then let that be so cause the ow is an unsafe individual, not cause you are blaming her for your life. Marriages end because of the people in them, that is the only reason they end....it is futile, pointless, (and ultimately self-destructive) to blame anything else.

Having said all this, your anger and distress are understandable. I don't think plan B your in-laws makes any sense at all...but I do think drawing boundaries where you need them is ok....and if you need some distance then do so...I think it might make sense though to simply tell these people, it is all just a little raw now, you can't stop being angry and don't want to deal with the triggers so will be a little distant (or a lot distant) until you choose otherwise...and negotiate any needed particulars such as how they can keep in touch with you (if you want) and such things as affects your children. Good luck, it is a rotten place to be, that's for sure.

Thanks Sufdb:
I will ponder over your reply and respond in the am.

hello transformed

I agree, your SIL betrayed you. How it must hurt, she wants to be "friends" with the woman who broke up your marriage by her affair with her brother.

If she wanted to keep up a good relationship with her brother, all that would be necessary would be "politeness" and "civility" as her ticket to the brother's house. Friendship is another category entirely.

To be friends with someone is an honor. It means different things at different levels. I have acquaintances for years before they become "friends." A lot of them don't make the cut. I introduce them to other friends as "friends" but the level of closeness and trust is different for all the people I know.

I would be able to accept her friendship with my ex's new wife if the couple met after the divorce was final. If the new wife was not involved in the breakup of my family.

Maybe she meant she is going to be civil and polite, so as not to alienate her brother. But you've been warned, and I wouldn't share anything sensitive with her any more.

Sorry you are having so much pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bellevue:
<strong>hello transformed

I agree, your SIL betrayed you. How it must hurt, she wants to be "friends" with the woman who broke up your marriage by her affair with her brother.

If she wanted to keep up a good relationship with her brother, all that would be necessary would be "politeness" and "civility" as her ticket to the brother's house. Friendship is another category entirely.

To be friends with someone is an honor. It means different things at different levels. I have acquaintances for years before they become "friends." A lot of them don't make the cut. I introduce them to other friends as "friends" but the level of closeness and trust is different for all the people I know.

I would be able to accept her friendship with my ex's new wife if the couple met after the divorce was final. If the new wife was not involved in the breakup of my family.

Maybe she meant she is going to be civil and polite, so as not to alienate her brother. But you've been warned, and I wouldn't share anything sensitive with her any more.

Sorry you are having so much pain.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sufdb...As you probably noticed, I find these issues fairly complex, and the notion that someone "owes" blind loyalty superficial, and not necessarily justified or healthy for any party.

You said...I agree, your SIL betrayed you. How it must hurt, she wants to be "friends" with the woman who broke up your marriage by her affair with her brother.

sufdb...That suggests you think you have veto power over who else your friends choose to be friends with...is that true? Do you think it appropriate to dictate to any of your friends who they can be friends with (in addition to you), because of personal issues you might have with an individual they choose? How do you think person A should bechave when they like person B and C but B and C have issues with each other.....do you require them to "choose" if so, what kind of friend does that make you? Or should each friendship stand on it's own merits....sometimes A spends time with you(B), and sometimes A spends time with C. Frankly I don't think it is possible, or even desireable to posit all friendships have to be interlocking and every member of the "circle" be "approved" of by every other member. No doubt her SIL has a cirlce of family, kin, friends, acquaintainces etc... and it is her decision FOR HER who these people should be, not whether someone else will approve...correct?

Nor did her SIL betray her, ginny has no expectation of sayso over SIL friendship choices. Further her SIL with laudable respect informed Ginny of this (something she had no obligation to do) so as to alert ginny to possiblilities of discmfort and such in the future. The marriage is over, makes no difference how it ended, her SIL (by ginny's sayso) was a supportive person, she may even have liked the ow then, but stood by ginny..... This notion of life long animus reminds me of feuds and generational conflict (really bad stuff)...No one "owns" another human being, the ow did nothing to ginny, her H (and herself) decided the outcome of their relationship (every day from the first day of marriage)....and unfortuneately that included the additional disruption/pain which result when an affair is one of the manifestations of the dysfunctional marriage. No one, I repeat no one, can breakup a marriage except the people in it. We do not live in a totalitarian world (as we have in the past) no one can end a marriage by fiat, or any other means, except the 2 individuals in it. Trying to attach "blame" to another party is an extreme form of self-denial...

This is all "rational" thought, of course these things still "hurt" and hurt alot, it is by bringing the light of reason to emotional responses that we avoid irrational behaviour. If ginny does not want to be friends with her SIL, or wants to blame the ow for her life because of the affair, she can...I just don't think it is healthy for her to do so, and may cost her a valued friendship with her SIL. It is my opinion that if one is going to do that, one do so for other reasons not vindictiveness. Maybe the ow is a low life, I dunno, if so then certainly stay away from her, and if SIL wants to be friends with her, that suggests the SIL has issues also that may make friendship undesireable....but none of this would (or should) have anything to do with the affair itself.

Belle: Thank you for your reply. Yes, I feel betrayed by SIL. Already matters that were discussed between us on a confidential level has filtered through to OW and OW has accused me of seeking emotional support for X/wh family.

As X/wh comes from a disfunctional family, father recluse, eldest brother alcoholic, x/wh recovering alcoholic, youngest brother committed suicide, deceased mother patriarch of family she kept everything together.

This SIL is married to the eldest brother who is an alcoholic, and on this basis we discussed the family dynamics which to me is very important because of my children and how to deal with them should this same dysfunctional behaviour appear.

Sufdb: I understand your logic. If the OW that I am dealing with showed any remorse for her actions or at least let me be to live my life without interference from her, I would have no objection to whoever want to be her friend. Unfortunately this is not the case. She wants to take control of every aspect of my life. My children, my friends, my family.

Thus far I have managed to back off completely and not interfere. If you do a search on my name you will find the intimidating letters OW has send me. This will give you an idea of who I am dealing with.

As for my marriage: I take full responsibility for my 50% of the breakdown of my marriage. I am dealing with my issues in therapy, Al-Anon and ACoA.

As for the way my marriage ended - Yes, OW was one of the symptoms.

I was in a seven year live in relationship with a boyfriend. This relationship ended when the b/f felt he did not want to be committed any longer.
There was no OW involved. Yes, I had to deal with the pain but I never lost my respect for this b/f. Why, because he was open and honest. Today, x/b, wife and I are very good friends.

How did my marriage end - Lies, deceit and dishonesty. How do you justify that after 2yrs the lies is still continuing.

As for my SIL, she had first hand exp of OW, vindictiveness: OW warned my kids not to associate with her because my X/h have issues with my SIL.

I have no objection with SIL becoming her friend, but what hurts is the reason why she wants to befriend OW. She is envying their lifestyle - Planes, holidays, hotels etc.........whilst she is aware that I am struggling financially because of X/h's extravagant lifestyle with OW. In actual fact we are dv for 1mnth now and he could not pay the maintenance in the first mnth, Why, he had no money but yet he took OW to Zanzibar last week on holiday.

Do I envy them their lifestyle - No. Because I know they live on credit cards. Do I envy OW because she is living of my sweat - No. I believe that through my own hard work I will again attain whatever has been taken away from me financially.

AS for X and his OW, There is no way that I will interfere in any of their relationships with his family or our friends. Yes, it hurts but they have a life together now - as for me I have ventured in new territory, new friends, new lifestyle and I have my own family

Sufdb: Enlighten me about your story as I am trying access where your logic come from.

Ginny, there's no reason to attack sufb and his/her 'logic' just because he/she offered advice that doesn't come in the form of sympathy. I actually liked the post VERY MUCH, it made a lot of sense.

In reading more about your situation (which you didn't offer in your first post), however, I can see why you would be angry about this. It sounds like the OW isn't a very nice person. Still, your SIL has to be around her, and being friendly with her is probly much more comfortable than hating her. If the OW really is the kind of person you've described here...your SIL will more than likely get a taste of that at some point. I'm sure OW will burn her too.

I realize it hurts, but when the DV is finalized...many of the family dynamics change. It's a fact, no matter how tight everyone was before. And yes, it hurts.

Sounds like you have sufficient reason to keep your distance from all xh, xh family, and ow based on their own merits. I appreciate the effort to try and understand for your childrens sake, but maybe it would be better to cut off contact alltogether, sounds like there is nothing there of value for the kids. It is my opinion that when a group of people are dysfunctional enough the kin "benefits" are reduced to nothing, therefore why associate with them at all (keep a very distant boundary, let your kids grow and develop with only minimal influence by interaction with such).

In any event, as I think you realized my comments were about you, and for your health, not promoting the other people. While it may be sad to realize your SIL is not good friend material, she still didn't "betray" you, unless she specifically revealed confidences she knew you considered private (and maybe she did, that was unclear). She may have just been trying (in her own way) to contribute to family stability.

trns..How did my marriage end - Lies, deceit and dishonesty. How do you justify that after 2yrs the lies is still continuing.

sufdb...You don't "justify" anything in relationships, you try to understand why people (and ourselves) do what they do. How a healthy relationship should work, and then proactively (instead of reactively) make choices. A pattern of lies, deciet and dishonesty are sufficient reason to end any relationship (although one must be careful because a certain amount of deceit is an integral part of an affair not a seperate issue in itself, but in that case it should end when the affair ends and is dealt with as the sympton it was). Sometimes (for many reasons) circumstances force us to deal with an untrustworthy individual (because they are family, or in a circle of freinds, or our parent/child, or parent of your children, etc. BUT you don't have to be (or remain) married under those conditions.

As for me, that is not particularly important, I have my troubles, and experiences with thesubject matter of this board too. My interest lies in why people do what they do, and what to do about it (so I can also make healthy decisions). My observation (after several years of immerseing myself in these kinds of issues) is people primarily make emotional decisions (in relationships), and they are often the wrong decisions (in that they do not contribute to healthy emotional/psychological states). With that in mind I ask questions (to get people thinking about "why"), and promote rational thought, leading to rational decision making...which will often not be what one wants/feels emotionally.

My logic comes from these efforts and observations, as well as extensive scientific reading about the genetic basis for behaviour, and contemplation about the spiritual issues. My purpose is sound mental health for all parties, because our physical health and well-being is closely related to our psychological/emotional health, which is strongly influenced by the nature of our relationships, and most strongly by our marital type relationships.

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Ginny, there's no reason to attack sufb and his/her 'logic' just because he/she offered advice that doesn't come in the form of sympathy. I actually liked the post VERY MUCH, it made a lot of sense.

In reading more about your situation (which you didn't offer in your first post), however, I can see why you would be angry about this. It sounds like the OW isn't a very nice person. Still, your SIL has to be around her, and being friendly with her is probly much more comfortable than hating her. If the OW really is the kind of person you've described here...your SIL will more than likely get a taste of that at some point. I'm sure OW will burn her too.

I realize it hurts, but when the DV is finalized...many of the family dynamics change. It's a fact, no matter how tight everyone was before. And yes, it hurts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hey hope4, is ok, no one is attacking me, we are just talking...but thx for the support.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Sorry...didn't mean to rush to your defense. I had just gotten through reading your post and went WOW...and then read Ginny trying to get your 'credentials' for your line of thinking. I thought, WHAT??!! But Ginny is hurting...and having been through a large part of that (problems with the inlaws...ugh) I understand where she's coming from.

I've read many of your other posts too. Your logic is astounding...I hope someday to have that kind of education to back my words, instead of relying mostly on experience. Thanks for being such a valuable poster, I think I could learn a lot from you!

Ginny, my inlaws never wanted anything to do with me from the start. My SIL called my husband several weeks before our wedding to inform him of how unhappy their parents were at the whole situation, and then she asked him not to marry me. Yup...gotta love that family. I could go on forever. But an amazing thing happend during our seperation. I didn't care anymore. I didn't feel the need for their acceptance, and I accepted the fact that they never did like me and that it was their choice to do so. Honestly, I just really didn't care anymore.

Then H and I got back together. I thought...oh geez, have I ruined their party or what? Actually, they treat me with more respect now than ever. Why? Because I don't care anymore. I don't walk on eggshells around them, and I don't look for their acceptance. And I don't REACT to what I felt as rejection...because I don't really care! We're not CLOSE by any means...but we coexist nicely. I gave them the power to hurt me before...and now I've taken it away.

Had our marriage ended, however, I would have become a non-person to them. And that's ok too....because I just don't care!

Your H's family...and their relation...aren't the people to look to for loyalty right now. That has nothing to do with you. It has to do with them, and their issues, and their situation. You have other friends...spend time with them! And tell yourself I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY THINK!!

Hope4future: Thank you so much for sharing. The day I got d'vorced I made a decision to put up boundaries with the in-laws.

I am also at the point where I see no sense in continuing a relationship with them because of all the destructive behaviours. I will not cut complete ties as my children are very fond of their cousins but I will keep my boundaries.

Sufdb: Reason for me asking your credentials is because you are challenging me to change my perception and thinking on relationships. I apologize if I offended you.

I value your input tremendously as not only are you giving me a good dose of reality but you are challenging me to drop the "victim mentality" that I as a BS and adult child of an alcoholic tend to strive on.

I am the adult child of an alcoholic as well.

I think you're plan sounds good. If your in-laws don't offer anything of a healthy relationship for your children...what's the point? Children need GOOD role models...not more bad ones!

Ironically my in-laws are fantastic grandparents. They've truly blown me away with the relationship they have with our son. Why is it so surprising? Well, one of the issues I have with them (though it's never spoken) is that they don't acknowledge their oldest sons firstborn. He was born out of wedlock and they never married. So what...he's still their grandchild in my opinion. They don't count him...they openly admit that. Our son is adopted...not 'their blood'. I always figured that would be an issue...and added to the fact that they didn't like me... But it isn't...and actually I think they do like me now.

Life can be so weird sometimes. Take care Ginny, I think you have a really good head on your shoulders!!!

I was not offended in the slightest. It is to your credit you recognize a victim mentality is not healthy, and something I regularly try to persuade people out of...vitim is all about reactionary choices, which means others are defining you (whether that is their intent or not...although it often is), instead of you defining you. Good luck

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>