I have learned one lesson: if you want to hear from your WH, send him a PBL. Just got yet another email from him, neutral in tone, with his travel info attached. It makes it very clear OW will not be with him -- is that the point in sending it to me? Is he trying to tell me? Who knows?

I still don't know where he is living, with whom, or what his new phone might be.

I think you are right, Redhat. He doesn't know where he's going yet. He doesn't have a plan.

But there is no plan I see that includes me, which is getting to be pretty definitive.

G'morning, AM! We must keep a very similar schedule in some ways. Our postings often seem to be at similar times.

I agree with you on the contact. You reduce, they increase. S'okay. Stay dark, stay strong, stay focused on you.

And by the way (really this should be on the other thread), what are you doing for you these days?

A.M.Martin,

WS don't have plan, they have dream/fantasy. The big picture <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . Do they have plan to get there ?, nope. They go day by day and reacting to the situation.

Go dark, pitch dark. Let him approach you if there is any hope for you to have fullfiling M ... you know if you roll red carpet now, he might come back but you still have WH mentality. You know what you want and don't settle for less.

-rh-

AM,
Sending your PBL was something within your control. What he does is not within your control.

Unless, like with the furniture, his contact demands a response, don't worry about the things he sends you.

That's part of Plan B, you don't worry about him.

AM,

Here's my 2 cents: Being the kind lady that you are, a brief thank you response is appropriate. You are acknowledging receipt and not creating or causing chaos.

Why give any response while in plan B? Because my dear, he is not contacting you with hostility or disrespect.

Use this time to show you are a reasonable and sane person. The brief response will show that. If he chooses to continue another response and as long as it is sane, then continue the gentle sweet reply but when he becomes hostile then you have the option to go dark.

See he maybe trying to heal or not. You will never know unless you take this opportunity to show him your nice side.

Remember yesterday when T1 was talking about her H being nice now? It was a big change for her, he was sad that the house sold. Reality hits in many ways. While I am not asking you to let it hit you. Letting him know in a brief response will show him where the cushion of love resides.

It is hard to see the soft sides of our WS at this time, but it is there under all that hard A junk.

All the best,
L.

I don't know, Orchid. He is NEVER hostile towards me -- too much of a conflict avoider. So that's not the problem. Coldness and remoteness and lack of communication are his problems.

Any response might be an indication that I'm backing down from Plan B. That I'm being a moosh. Again. (I think my anger post-D-Day was a shocker for him; it was out of character.)

On the other hand, he might be trying to reach out and tell me the A is over (though I also specified no contact -- if the A exploded, maybe that's not an issue, I just don't know).

If I reply at all, we are going back to the pre-PBL situation where we are communicating in a distant but friendly way. The PBL was a statement that I didn't see us becoming "just friends." We are married. I didn't want to mislead him about that.

On the other hand, if we don't communicate (a la Redhat), I can't outline terms and conditions for change. If I make him swallow his pride in a big way before even approaching me -- that might make it insurmountable for him, when there are plenty of roadblocks he'll have to leap over to come back, with positive reinforcement.

Keep in mind his big contact with me was about getting his stuff out. There's nothing particularly positive about that, except that he was proposing spending the day together, albeit in this strange way.

I just don't know what he's thinking. And he always puts one in the position of mindreading.

<small>[ October 19, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Curiously, the last time he took a trip, I was cc'ed the plans, one of a bunch of people all addressed collectively as "friends." This actually had an individual note on it.

Chicken entrails again.

NEWS FLASH...or rather RUMOR FLASH... just heard that OW's mysterious disappearance is being attributed to a death in the family. But I know that the death in the family occurred several months ago, and she did spend 10 days with family back home last month. I was also told that this would probably be used as a pretext for her exit...at any rate, if this is a breakup, it's being covered up for everyone to save face, I guess.

But then why doesn't he just give me the face-saving excuse...which doesn't explain the sudden need for furniture or car for sale? He seems to be going out of the way to give me the impression that he's alone, without really giving me the straight info on if he's moving out, etc.

Tea leaves.

<small>[ October 19, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong> ....If I make him swallow his pride in a big way before even approaching me -- that might make it insurmountable for him, when there are plenty of roadblocks he'll have to leap over to come back, with positive reinforcement.

Keep in mind his big contact with me was about getting his stuff out. There's nothing particularly positive about that, except that he was proposing spending the day together, albeit in this strange way.

I just don't know what he's thinking. And he always puts one in the position of mindreading. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here ya' go AM, U don't know what he is thinking yet you are trying to make him do things (ie: swallow his pride, etc.)

This is one vicious circle. Want to be a part of it? I think not.

If you don't want to be a part of it, then step out. Keep yourself in the distant mode. I still think a pleasant thank you response is healthy for you. If you can handle it.

What could that tell him?
1. AM still is a lady w/manners
2. AM did receive the e-mail
3. AM was not hostile towards the WS
4. AM may leave a better impression than before
5. AM may even look more attractive in the EN way than the OW.

U C AM, if you do this it could just could create an LB environment between the WS and OW without you doing much more than saying, thanks.

Didn't think you could do so much with so little words or actions? Think again.

L.

Interesting, mindreading and all. I hear you trying to grasp meaning in the very little communication and rumors.

My suspicion...he's looking for you to save him, and save face. To come out and ask the questions so he doesn't have to be the one that *gulp* makes the first step. But that is what is needed. Orchid may be right, a ^little^ encouragement (i.e. that he has the right email address) may be what will stoke his fire...maybe right. There is fear...what if you email him and he doesn't respond...again. What if he does...

Neither answer sounds good.

But don't stop ANY communication just to punish him. What are your motives for your guessing, rumor listening, and sticking to Plan B?

StillHere, I think you might be reading this right -- ie, he wants me to save him and save face.

The mindreading is a game I get sucked into by his minimalist communication. One of my LBs (during recovery counseling before relapse) was my pelting hiim with 20 questions, trying, trying, trying to figure out what was going on inside him. And him holing up, insisting he was feeling nothing. So here we go again.

However, what I did learn is that despite his denials, stuff was going on inside him, and my instincts were right. But not infallible.

Now I'm told on MB to mistrust 99 percent of your instincts. So it's all very confusing.

SHMI, I won't mind if he doesn't answer. A thank you is no big deal. But everyone has impressed upon me that one shouldn't back down from NC, and that's what I'd be doing.

Redhat is right, he doesn't have a plan. Probably has many conflicting thoughts and feelings. It's probably a pretty good guess that he wants me to save him. If he were screaming for help, it would probably sound like this.

But what can I do??? He's put us both in this position.

The problem is: if he were screaming for help, this is what it would look like. If he were NOT screaming for help, this is what it would look like.

<small>[ October 19, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

And I'm not at all trying to punish him. And Orchid, I am always kindly in my interaction with him, so this would hardly be a novelty.

I'm just trying to do what is right.

I'm not pretending I'm a saint, but I am perfectly capable of being kind and courteous to people with whom I have so little interaction. If we were to try to work things out, there'd be plenty of kinks.

He used to say sometimes that he was afraid of me. Even though he's the "strong, silent" type. I could never quite understand that. I don't think he's forgiven me for throwing him out. He has trouble being that definite...maybe that's why he's scared. I really have no idea.

Okay, Orchid. I did it! I hope it wasn't the wrong thing to do.

What did you do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> What did you do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You tell her to reply email ...

-rh-

Ok, RH says to e-mail me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> Ok, RH says to e-mail me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Misunderstanding ... you told AM to be nice and reply to WH's email ... I think she did it.

-rh-

Ok, and AM, how are you now and can you say how it went?

L.

Well, NOTHING happened, of course! I sent a breezy 3-line acknowledgement of receipt. And now he is on his way to the airport (according to the info he sent). So nothing happened, except that I maybe broke Plan B, which I'm not sure is a good thing.

But I've been thinking some. I really think someone on here put it well: H wants me to save him, and he wants to save face. He is waiting for me to do something. This is why he hasn't filed for divorce -- he doesn't really want one. He had a strong positive reaction to my loving PBL -- he wants me to woo him. He wants me to persuade him to come back.

This is why he's asking for his stuff. He doesn't particularly want it. But it's one way to prod me into communicating with him. He has very few excuses now to communicate to me otherwise. Unless of course I develop some pretext for interaction.

He doesn't want the responsibility of the decision. He doesn't want the labor of recovery. He wants the road to be smoothed for him. Keep in mind that this is someone whose road has ALWAYS been smoothed for him.

This is why he lingers when he visits. He wants me to make the first move ... all the moves.

He's only seeing things from his POV of course. He is reacting to his own hurt, his own pain, and ignoring the pain he has caused others. He thinks he is okay.

But until I move, he won't be moved. Unless OW returns for a short-lived reunion. Or another OW emerges. He's waiting for something to happen. He's waiting for something to react to. He doesn't want to take the risk of rejection. He doesn't want to take any risks at all. He wants me to take them.

This is SO like him. Even the coldness of some of his emails are risk-avoidant. Or, just as likely, he doesn't see how cool they are -- he's thinking only of his own POV. He's waiting for me to make his day.

So we are going to wallow in this stagnation forever.

<small>[ October 20, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

What he doesn't seem to see is that I have grave doubts about his ability to be a husband. He has to "prove" himself, because I'm just not willing to go through this again. Though I love him deeply, I have had to reevaluate his worth and character.

Maybe part of him does realize this. But that all just traps him more in non-action. And of course me, too.