Hi Quip,

Couldn't help noticing that N2n was a bit upset at your posts. I went back and read them again and while I can understand her stance, I see you reaching out hard to help her. For now it doesn't seem to be working.

Initially I thought you posted as though you personally knew N2n. I am not sure (it isn't important that I know this piece of info - I am just sharing my thoughts).

Anyways, I did some research and found an intersting post you did a while back and wondered what your current thoughts were on the subject of negogiations. Here's the link:

Quipper's thread on negogiations

Here's one of your post from that thread: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong> Dear Fellow Marital negotiators.

Expaning on my previous post,

There is a part of negotiation preparation that can be conduted with the OS, Other Spouse, when OS is in a Taking mode. The preparation is to find out what the spouse really wants. In order to negotiate effectively, a Spouse must understand the list of desires in the mind of the other spouse, and a rank ordering of the desires, and the magnitude of the desires, and the cycles when each unfulfilled desire becomes more important.

When reading the Emotional Needs section Posts, few spuoses lay out clearly, a list what the other spouse thinks is needed.

When my W is going off on me, in Anger, I should be asking the quessions, What would you like to do? What would you like to have? and What would you like to be? (Scietolgy processing questions) This would enable me to better make a list of what OS wants, and the rank ordering.

So just because negotiation cannot take place, does not mean that negotiation should be neglected. Invaluable information can be learned from outbursts.

Bringing honesty to the fore front, in order to improve a relationship, should, in my opinion, be done with more caution than MB recommends. The important part of honesty is to communicate your feelings of what you truly want from your spouse. If there is something that a spouse is withholding, that should be thought over, and see if some harmless phrasing can be developed to communicate that desire. If no phrasing for the desire can be formulated, it should be calendered to be revisisted for further thought, before much more time passes.

An important part of negotiation is to have your own list of desires in good order.

Hope some others will share differing points of view. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You also made this comment on another thread: "To Me, negotiating begins wiht a list of what you want, and what she wants, and finding ways to rank order each others desires, and find ways to compromise on the difficult issues. "

I found your comments interesting. This was written a while back and wondered how you felt about this now.

Thanks,
L.

Dear Orchid,

Thanks for your ideas.

My own words sometimes come back to demonstrate how I should be doing better.

No2nos asked me not to post anymore of my creative ideas to her thread. I do not know her personally. You may have gotten the idea that I knew her, because I received more information about No2nos from which questions she chose not to answer, rather than from the information contained in the answers that she did provide.

I was trying to help No2nos develop a list of what she had, what she could lose, and what more she wanted. I was trying to be thoughtful, not rude. I have seen some posters using Plan B, lose what they had. Certainly it may be worth it for Nose 2 Nose to risk losing what she has, but it seemed to me that she was not fully in touch with what she had, perhaps because she felt she was entitled to so much more. Perhaps she has nothing to lose. But it seemed to me, that it would be best to have a husband's cooperation for putting his kids through college, and a hasty decision now, could lead to years of difficulties and regrets later.

I was not trying to say that what she has is so great, or how long it will last. Just that getting kids launched, through college or whatever, is something that has been challenging for me, and some other parents I know. My intent was not to upset her, or to try to make her wrong. I was not trying to say Plan B could never work for her, just that I was asking how, and no one could tell me, except by magic, which is OK, so long as you know that Magick is what is being relied upon. Since you have not been asked to stop posting to her thread, it would be nice if others can pick up the slack for No2nos.

I tried to help one lady under Emotional Needs, and other, more experienced posters got on me, saying that she was just trolling for attention. She left MB in a huff.

Are there parts of my basic philosophy that you see should be changed? I don't see that I have changed much from that earlier post. Many of my posts seem to be a repeat of the ideas in that early post. Is there something you can point out that I am missing?

I was hoping by posting to other people's threads, that I would grow myself. You have shown me that I have not really advanced very much.

Blessings,

Quipper
Married 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ October 26, 2003, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Quipper, I thought you contributed some very thought provoking questions and pertinent ideas. Sometimes people don't want to see the reality of a situation and instead, attack the messenger. I was attacked by this same poster for pointing out - in an indirect manner -some of the ideas you have brought forth. But that is not the kind of help she wants, so I avoid her threads. I'm sure others do too.

Please don't take it personally and stop posting, I have so enjoyed the depth of thought and analysis in your posts and I think many can benefit from them.

I want to also add that I think its the height of ingratitude and bad form to bash someone who goes to the trouble of replying to someone's thread. When you post a thread asking for help, folks have to expect that they might get some answers that they don't like. Why not thank the person and move on? Take what you need and leave the rest.

Mel,You started to pick on my mother and how she raised me that was of no question I had asked on my thread.

Nonos, first off, I never even addressed you in my thread, and secondly, saying that *I* was raised to believe that I should always have a "marketable skill in order to support myself in case my marriage doesn't work out" is hardly "attacking" your mother.

My thread didn't have your name on it and never addressed you, yet you took it personally and threatened to leave. Your response was so off the wall that I contacted the moderator and asked him to just delete the entire thread. So lets get the facts straight

I'm with you, Melody. At the same time, we have to remember that some BSs and WSs are extremely sensitive, perhaps not given to self-examination prior to this crisis, and now facing the most vulnerable and critical moment of their lives. They are not at their best.

I've always been criticized for taking things too personally, being oversensitive, etc. -- but geez! at this point I'll take all the help I can get. And it's free! But I know everyone's not up to this, so I try to be compassionate towards all. In most cases, it seems like the posters can take it on the chin, fortunately.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong> I'm with you, Melody. At the same time, we have to remember that some BSs and WSs are extremely sensitive, perhaps not given to self-examination prior to this crisis, and now facing the most vulnerable and critical moment of their lives. They are not at their best.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gotcha, Anna Marie, and agree with what you said. It's so easy to walk into a land mine when you have the best of intentions. I just hope folks remember that most posters are WELL INTENTIONED when they go to the trouble of replying. And often the person trying to help is just as sensitive so it can get hairy.

Dear Melody Lane,

Thanks for the enccouragement. I do plan to not post to No2nos, unless she were to invite me back. No2nos was reasonably polite in the words she chose to ask me not to post back again to her thread. I don't mind No2nos being angry at me. Part of therapy can be becoming angry, and then, through thinking, the anger is put into perspective, and there is an opportunity for personal growth. I know I did not intend to jump on her sensitivites, so I don't see how to feel guilty about it.


Dear No2nos,

Hope things turn out well for you and your sons. Please forgive me for hurting you. That was not my intent. Please invite me back if you ever build back up to listening to a wider variety of ideas. I did try to put caring and concern into my choice of words and ideas. Hope others provide the help you desire.

Blessings

Quipper
Marreid 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ October 26, 2003, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Mel, you know you said it in my post first then you made a different post about it. Remember???

All I have to say is there is alot of assuming here and it is wrong. I am no different then anyone here and you know if someone here told you that you were the wife number two to the ow it would have hurt you.

<small>[ October 25, 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

Nonos, no I did not and I most certainly did not "pick" on your mother. The point is that there is no excuse to attack people when they go to the trouble of responding to your threads. If you don't like what people say, then ignore it and move on.

ok Mel, Thanks

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No2nos:
<strong> Mel, you know you said it in my post first then you made a different post about it. Remember???

All I have to say is there is alot of assuming here and it is wrong. I am no different then anyone here and you know if someone here told you that you were the wife number two to the ow it would have hurt you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would hurt me is not someone pointing out this TRUE FACT, but the fact that my H was treating me like Wife #2 by living with his girlfriend. I think thats the point that Quipper was making. He was simply making a statement of fact about the situation. I have often stated that WS's have a harem when they keep the spouse and the OP on the line. Its not the statement that makes that hurtful, but the ACT.

How do you think Quipper felt when he saw your scathing words to him after he spent all that long time on your thread composing a thoughtful post to you, no2nos? I went back through your thread and see that he has spent untold hours on your thread trying to be helpful.

Mel,what is the reality of my situation that you see that I am missing?

Please when did I attack a messenger? All I asked was please do not post to me anymore to Quipper it was making me sad,hurt and all I asked was if it was time for Plan B. Not all of this mess. That is what it is a mess people assuming. I have too and it is not right and I am sorry for my half.

Thanks to all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 25, 2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No2nos:
<strong> All I asked was please do not post to me anymore to Quipper it was taken me down and all I asked was if it was time for Plan B. Not all of this mess, that is what it is people assuming. I have too and it is not right and I am sorry for my half.

Thanks to all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don't understand a word you said so I won't respond. I wish you the best.

And more importantly, I just want to express to Quipper that his posts are most welcome here and this situation is not any reflection of a shortcoming on his part. I feel badly for the shabby treatment he received.

Mel, thanks for your time and thoughts and best wishes.

I'm new to this, so here goes,first off, quipper is a big boy he will get over it, so enough about that. I understand what quipper meant by Wife #2, but when you are on the other side, i would have taken it like N2Nos did.No2Nos has come a long way, she has gotten stronger with the help of ppl here, and i thank those ones. N2Ns has been my BEST friend for 25 years, i have lived this with her, i dont agree on everything, but i support her on her decisions. I dont understand the plan b thing especially when children are involved how can you have no contact.

Quipper,

Dust off this one and never post to her again ... She could just ignore your post and leave you alone instead of going into this thread. Let alone bringing a freind to help her point.

-rh-

thread jack: hi Mel ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong>

thread jack: hi Mel ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi honey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Quipper:
<strong> Dear Orchid,

Thanks for your ideas.

My own words sometimes come back to demonstrate how I should be doing better.

No2nos asked me not to post anymore of my creative ideas to her thread. I do not know her personally. You may have gotten the idea that I knew her, because I received more information about No2nos from which questions she chose not to answer, rather than from the information contained in the answers that she did provide.

I was trying to help No2nos develop a list of what she had, what she could lose, and what more she wanted. I was trying to be thoughtful, not rude. I have seen some posters using Plan B, lose what they had. Certainly it may be worth it for Nose 2 Nose to risk losing what she has, but it seemed to me that she was not fully in touch with what she had, perhaps because she felt she was entitled to so much more. Perhaps she has nothing to lose. But it seemed to me, that it would be best to have a husband's cooperation for putting his kids through college, and a hasty decision now, could lead to years of difficulties and regrets later.

I was not trying to say that what she has is so great, or how long it will last. Just that getting kids launched, through college or whatever, is something that has been challenging for me, and some other parents I know. My intent was not to upset her, or to try to make her wrong. I was not trying to say Plan B could never work for her, just that I was asking how, and no one could tell me, except by magic, which is OK, so long as you know that Magick is what is being relied upon. Since you have not been asked to stop posting to her thread, it would be nice if others can pick up the slack for No2nos.

I tried to help one lady under Emotional Needs, and other, more experienced posters got on me, that she was just trolling for attention. She left MB in a huff.

Are there parts of my basic philosophy that you see should be changed? I don't see that I have changed much from that earlier post. Many of my posts seem to be a repeat of the ideas in that early post. Is there something you can point out that I am missing?

I was hoping by posting to other people's threads, that I would grow myself. You have shown me that I have not really advanced very much.

Blessings,

Quipper
Married 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quip,

I am glad to see that despite how anyone responds to you, you are looking at it as constructive criticism - a platform to improve from instead of being damaged/hurt.

It is true that many here @ MB are already emotionally hurt with their current situation and at times it makes it harder to see the forest for the trees. It happens to the best of us and I for one have been on both sides of that fence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So best is probably good to move forward.

Another point is that sometimes many W BS find it hard to work with the thought process of a M BS and visa versa. So if you have had a few experiences, it maybe safer to post to more of the M BS and occassional W BS when you are ready to test the waters again.

Last week I spoke to a WS and learned an interesting point. He said if he had realized how much work it took to keep a M sooner, he probably would still have his 1st M. This guy is no spring chicken (but he is a 'fun guy - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). He learned this lesson in life after his 1st ended and now into his 2nd. Good thing he has a good W now because now they can both benefit from this lesson in life. Anywho, it taught me that we should never stop trying. Your negogiating comments hit me in a similar vein. However, this is a learned thing. Like plan A vs plan B, some are not ready until their heart and mind are back in sync.

So neither you nor N2n are bad, maybe just not a good combo for support..... at this time. I know I wasn't a good support my whole time here (a few told me off royally before - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) but I just learned to move on. On the other side of that coin, I had to swallow hard when an MBer who really had something valuable to say, tossed it my way with no tact, it was still valuable but much harder to swallow. What I learned though was if we take it up front, it makes healing easier.

I see a lot of pain here at MB. But the outgoing folks leave with less pain. Something here MUST have something to do with that.... or else .... it's the water - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding.

Hey, the rest of you peoples, this was suppose to be a thread about negogiating (sp???). What are your comments?

take care,
L.

My thoughts on negotiating: I'm good at it at work, and awful at it with WP.

My further thoughts on negotiating: I need to learn to do it better and so does WP.

My last thoughts (for tonight) on negotiating: Separating the emotions from the creative problem solving process is important.