[Before reading other's posts, I need 2 apologize for this one from yes2rday. I should listen 2 some of my own advice once in a while!]

2day was a weird day. Started out really "good". Good SF, good snuggling. Good, in that my W has felt comfy enough 2 tell me more about how she feels about us, about the A, about our fu2re. I suppose the good news is that she believes in working 2 find out if we have a fu2re. Her way of saying that she's interested in working on the M.

But the bad news is that she reiterated that she never wanted 2 be M'd, still believes that M is "legalized prosti2tion", and doesn't agree with my, or anybody else's view of what M should be.

Then, she did open up 2 me about more of the "depth of the betrayal" of her A with Rat Meat. He only just decided that he didn't want a R with her a few months ago, about the same time she told me she didn't want one with him. But that's an A. They both apparently still believe they're entitled 2 a 'friendship.' One of my 'parting shots' then, may be 2 give her (and maybe him) a copy of Shirley Glass' "Not Just Friends". There were a couple of significant events where he asked her 2 come live with him, notably the week of my "sabbatical" in July 2002, but also as recently as early this year. And when his W tossed his sorry a$$ out last December, my W gave him $1000 2 put down on an apartment. I just heard about this 2day.

I've been played the fool all this time. And while I probably should be grateful for the belated honesty, I'm not. There are plenty of things still unresolved, and apparently "not on the table" even now, such as no NC agreement.

I drank a lot of beer 2day. I'm sorry for that. I called SC this afternoon, from the roof of our house. He helped me level out considerably. NO, I wasn't contemplating jumping(it is high enough, though), but I am contemplating DV. I did tell my W that "I don't have the energy for this anymore". And right now, I really don't. I don't know if DV is "in the cards" (something Rat Meat said a lot in the emails I saw 2 my W over the years), but recovery is definitely very hard after all, if that's what this crap is.

Strange. I got some sense that things might be different in a positive way, if I HAD emailed Rat Meat a long time ago. They've gone on far 2 long thinking that I didn't care what they thought or did, apparently.

This time, I think I mean it when I say: "I give up."

Please try 2 talk me out of it.

-2long

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long - I'm in Plan B. Like you I just got too worn out, and tired of the deception. However it does sound like you have a good relationship with wife. We just have to get rid of ratmeat. Can you hang in there a little longer and try to take care of some of your needs? I've seen lots of your posts and you are a good man. I hate to see you feeling so hopeless about this. Maybe this is the dark just before dawn. Hugs from California.

Hey, 2long, have you talked to Cerri about all this? I'd be interested to know what her opinion of your situation is. It strikes me... well, it just strikes me as odd. It's not necessarily bad, but it IS odd. Legalized prostitution, for example. What does she feel she's selling sex FOR, here? And is that her metaphor for all sex?

I can certainly see how meeting SF needs could feel that way, but it also strikes me as suggesting that there are still needs of hers that aren't being met.

Alternatively, it could just as easily be a philosophical thing that she believes intellectually while having no real bearing on how she treats you on a day-to-day basis.

However....... given everything you said about the other revelations of the day, I have to agree that getting Mr. RM out of the picture would be wise. Which leads me back to the question of Cerri, who hammers on the need for no contact in order for marriages to truly recover.

Golly. It's late. I should sleep REAL SOON.

Dear 2long -

I don't know if you're still up - its Sunday morning here and I just logged on - I don't post much to you, but I do read, and I've admired the way you have continued to "press through" with your wife through all this time.

One of the reasons why I read your thread is because I feel our cases to have some similarity, although there are differences. In my case, my H had an EA (possibly PA) with a married woman, before I met him. She is 20 years older than him, and he lived with them on and off as part of their family from age 19-32. I think they fell into an incestuous kind of love affair, partly because of their shared Christianity, partly because of proximity, and because each met some of the other's emotional needs. She was drawn to people who needed nurturing, and he was needy, but he also met her need for "romance", and she his. I believe that when I met him, he was still "in love" with this woman. At that time, their "personal friendship" had been going on for about 5 years. Looking back, I am haunted by the idea that my H never really "loved" me, but that he found someone who filled the gap in his life - all the places this other woman couldn't fill - daily companion, sexual partner, domestic provider, mother of his children - but "soul mate"? He already had that and wasn't going to give it up. I tried to find out the truth of their R when I first began to suspect there was someone else in his heart - I asked him directly, he said she was "his best friend" and that "Honi soit qui mal y pense", which roughly means "evil to him who thinks evil" - in other words - "it might look bad, but it's not what you think". I then snooped several times and read some of her letters to him. They revealed that they had an intimate emotional relationship, and that she struggled with her feelings for him, but felt that it was possible for them to "be in love with each other and not lose our integrity". Shirley Glass's book "Not Just Friends" could have used my H and this woman as a prime example. My H proposed to me on the phone from England (from her house), and I said "yes, but...we have to talk". My H came back from England, with not one ring from him, but three - one from him, one from his mother, and one from her. I made the mistake of assuming he was ready to talk about his life to me. When I tried to talk to him about it, in a reasonable way, and I confessed that I had read some of her letters, the results were disastrous. He froze, and nothing could shift him. After months of silence, I broke off our engagement. I said I could not walk through a door blind, as he seemed to want me to do. By that time I was clinically depressed and in therapy.

There have been times since then when I wished I had let him exit my life. Why I could not, and why he could not let me go is something which I am still trying to understand. A year passed in which we never really let go of each other - we still had a lot of contact, he got another girlfriend, then he went back to England. From there, he called me and asked me to come visit - he also wrote and told me he had had a long talk with OW and "settled things once and for all". He wanted me to come and meet his friends and family, including her. I still loved him - and I saw him as a victim of this woman - perhaps much as you see your wife as the victim of RM. I loved him and wanted him to have the life he deserved - someone who loved him and could give him a home and a family of his own, not living like a cuckoo chick in someone else's nest. So I went. It was my first contact with his family of origin. His SIL's first words to me were "So you're going to visit the parents? Well I hope you get along with that b**ch better than I ever have!" I was shocked. What a thing to say! From there my H took me to meet (OW) and her family. Again a surprise - very warm, very loving, very Christian - I could see what the attraction was - also, OW's H was very strong personality who obviously loved his wife, and she him. (The question - did he know how strong his wife's feelings were for my H? I still don't know). From there, H took me to meet his parents. I cannot describe my feelings - they are perfectly ordinary people, but one's instant reaction is to want to run as far from them as possible. I cried myself to sleep that night. I am currently reading M. Scott Peck's "People of the Lie", and my H's parents fit the picture completely of an evil couple, a crucible of evil which smothers the life out of everything it comes in contact with. It is evil to the point of banality. Almost impossible to put your finger on. Deep inside me, I suddenly accepted that my H had needed OW, in order to free himself from his parents. What went wrong, was when OW began to use my H to fill all her needs for romance, and would not let go of him - then her friendship with him, which started out as a good thing, became an emotional prison for him, as bad, in it's own way, as the prison which his parent's home had been for him.

In walks Little Red Riding Hood - me - I wasn't someone who was either experienced enough to deal with, or capable of understanding just what was going on here - I was 26 years old, and felt what was going on in an instinctive way, rather than a thought-out way. I wanted suddenly to rescue my H from all of this, and I thought marriage to me would give him the safety he needed. So when he asked me a second time, I said yes, and we went ahead with a big, white wedding. Lots of my family were skeptical, but I was determined. I loved him, I thought, unconditionally. Because I loved him unconditionally, I accepted OW "as a friend", and she made every effort to be my friend, as well. We have now been married 15 years, we have two children, and she and her family have been our closest emotional friends. I suppose you could say, I saw them as allies against his parents, and I used them as such.

For a long time, I struggled emotionally in the middle of this web - looking back, I am not surprised that I suffered depression, or that our marriage had problems. Who could have expected anything else? And it is true that I have only myself to blame - I could have walked away, and not walked into this life. But I did, so I have to take some responsibility for that.

In my own defence, I would say that I tried to get at the truth, and offered my H Radical Honesty from the very beginning - Radical Honesty was a "life policy" with me, from long before I found MB. I don't believe that others have been honest or radically open with me.

I am attracted to your thread, because you seem to have made the same choices that I have - to not rock the boat, to not force the issue, to tolerate in the hopes that the love you CONSISTENTLY express towards your wife, will win the day, to love unconditionally, to turn your gaze away from your wife's problems and try to get on with your own life.

I know how difficult this time must be for you - I also know you are a reader - maybe you're fed up with reading books by now, but there are three which I have found very helpful -

The first is: Love is a Choice-The Groundbreaking Book on Recovery for Codependent Relationships by Dr Robert Hernfelt, Dr Frank Minirth, and Dr Paul Meier. I have found this VERY helpful - both in helping me see, and try to heal myself from my own co-dependency, and in breaking the cycle of co-dependency in our R. One of the things that happened to me is that I became emotionally dependent on the OW as a friend. I feel I have finally broken that - this is something new - after 15 years of marriage, of standing in the shadow of the love of this OW for my H, I finally feel that she is out of the picture. I do believe that these last two years of struggle are what have brought that to pass - she has backed out of being "close buddy" in a big way - perhaps watching us struggle these last two years showed her just how hypocritical she was being - she disapproved of his EAs, while at the same time demanding the same kind of R with him herself for so many years. In me she saw the naked face of the suffering that caused.

The second book is: What you feel you can Heal- How to overcome fear of intimacy by John Gray. This has helped me a great deal - to explain the dynamics between couples who have an emotional wall between them for whatever reason, and it has the most marvellous "Love Letter" technique at the end of the book - he gives you concrete tools to use in dealing with another person - I know that your wife's latest revelations have sent you off the edge again, and I would advise you to take a few days to mull it over, then draft a John Gray "Love Letter" which will express your feelings (all of them), but in a loving way. He helps you to find a way to express the bad feelings you have to express, but to end with love.

The third book is "Marriage Works"-The Ultimate Guide to Marriage by J. John. This book gives clear guidelines as to different concepts of marriage, along the lines of "buyer, renter or freeloader" but without using those potentially inflammatory words. This book also deals specifically with the concept of exclusivity.

Exclusivity is the big bug-bear for my H, and I suspect, for your wife. I see my H as someone whose boundaries have been trampled on all his life - first, by emotionally abusive parents, and then, by this OW. She should have remained a friend, and a surrogate mother. Instead, she crossed the boundary and became lover, and emotional lover - incestuous. Because of this, my H has "foggy" ideas about exclusivity in marriage. He views exclusivity as a bad, limiting thing - something which limits his right to have loving relationships. He does not view exclusivity as a pre-condition for emotional safety, within a committed relationship. I suspect it is this concept in her mind, which your wife is confusing with "legalized prostitution" - those are just words to justify her deeper feeling of being trapped in an "exclusive" relationship. Again - with people who are as wounded as my H, and your wife, it is almost impossible for us, the spouse who loves them, not to take this personally. But I am pretty sure that it is not meant personally. I don't think she means that she feels like whore when she sleeps with you - I think she means that something in her regards marriage as a trap, and that has very little to do with you, but with her. You talked quite a while ago about your wife being co-dependent, and I suspect that this is one of the statements she makes that reveals her fear of intimacy.

What I have learned, and am continuing to learn, is that it is myself I have to concentrate on healing. I have suffered in this R, it is true, but I also chose to be in it in the first place, and I continue to choose to stay. Why? I love my H. I see a lot in him that is loving, and deserves love. I also love my children and believe that they are happier with us together. So I am working on trying to be myself - to remain honest, open, to have integrity, not fall into bitterness or resentment (which I had done), to try to develop my own talents and fight the tendency I have towards becoming dependent. My biggest fight is with myself - to become independent - my greatest desire is to reach a place of financial independence - that would be a real achievement for me.

I am sure that your wife can and may, still reveal things that you will find hurtful. I find it odd that she chooses to reveal these things AFTER you had such a nice time snuggling together. Unconsciously, perhaps she is testing you. (If I tell him the truth, will he drive me away? Testing the veracity of your "unconditional love" in other words). Or maybe she has something in her that is like a compulsion to push you away, as soon as she feels close to you, so she reveals something that she knows will hurt you. In fact, she said something that she knows you hate - the "legalized prostitution" line. If this is the case, she succeeded in driving you away, because you are now up on the roof.

Or, maybe the closeness she felt with you allowed her to feel she could tell you things she hasn't dared tell you before.

I think she ought to be in therapy - any chance of nudging her in that direction again?

I know you feel you have reached your limit. and its up to you to decide for yourself how much you can and can't take. I also feel that she may be "testing" here. RM is now out of his marriage. If she manages to push you into shoving her out of her nest with you, maybe she will "have" to end up with RM. Co-dependents are masters at not taking responsiblity for their own lives. Pushing you is a way of getting you to do it for her.

Just my take. Well, I know this is an epsitle, but...hey - I'll have to borrow your handle - 2long! 2long, I am going away for a week with H and the kids - our first family vacation for a long time. A sign of recovery. I'm going with it.

Will check up on you when I get back next weekend. Take care. Sending good thoughts your way.

LIR

Dear 2L,

I read your post and LIRs. LIRs response was filled with good, very good thoughts and advice. Read her post with great care. She put a lot of herself into it and I can see the benefit.

2L, what you have suffered should never be suffered by anyone. The anger and frustration is manifests is felt through your post.

With that in mind, I would like to caution you NOT to make any life altering decisions right now.

You have a lot going on. You are working on your home, work, her working environment, etc. Your W's viewpoint of M is sad. There must be some misconceptions of either herself or her impression of M. I think she really knows that M is not that way but is trying to in a way justify her A. Not sure, just my thoughts.

Either way, it is making you unhappy and there maybe a strond tendency to throw in the towel. I understand. Just being a buddy and saying give some settling time. Then decide. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

2Long:

I have never posted to you before and it would be hard to beat LIR's very thoughtful post. (I read it three times).

However, despite your feelings, It is my sense you are in a good position. There is an evolution to re-building, just as there is an evolution to tearing a marriage apart. I really believe that this is where all of the "hard work" of recovery begins for you and her.

To the plus side, I see that you two are trying to re-build love. That is clearly something Harley says you do first and simultaneously work on other solutions for EN fulfillment.

I think her telling you about deposit money is good as painful as that is to hear. Continue to "make it safe" for her to continue this honesty. It will help break the fever of her feelings towards OM. She wants to tell you. Just listen. Yes, we are all played the fool, but ignore that feeling.(Emotional detachment) As she opens up more just listen and try to fulfill ENs where you can.

Secondly, stop the drinking for a while. I have found that evn two days after drinking moderately (on the ground) that my decision making abilities are a little impaired...not to mention my emotions. This will ultimately depress you. And speaking of depression, it might not hurt to see a doctor and explain what is going on.

To me, telling her "you do not have the energy " is like saying I am done. Appeal to the idea that she is sharing with you now(as much as the info sucks) and just listen. At this point your feelings do count, so do hers. Think about what you say and how you say to her in terms of your reactions if she said the same things to you. Then consider whether to say it or NOT. If nothing else, it will show you are being thoughtful. And, how you feel today, is not how you may feel tomorrow. So be careful what you say.

You must consider her feelings too.( I know, why I should I after what she has done) Remember Harley says that BS ambivalence will happen. Try to stay in good habits w/ LB avoidance and EN fulfillment. In time, those habits will become internalized and second nature.

Finally, I think you really need to consider whether you want the marriage and her or not. We can suggest things to you, but in the end you must decide if you want to work on it or not.

I hope you do not think I am being hard on you. I just believe that you have a real opportunity here.

2long,

I can't belive she views marriage as "legalized prosti2tion." Marriage is all in the vows you took. To honor and love one another, cherish each other, have and to hold in sickness and in health, for better or worse, forsaking all others etc.

What in there equals anything close to prosti2tion?

Her view is severly distorted of what M is. And I feel very bad for you that if she doesn't change what she thinks of M things won't get any better. How or why should they if that is all she values it as?

How can you go on and build a M when someone's view of M is not in line with yours?

Think of it this way. I give you both a recipe to bake a cake for each other, the recipe (vows) tells you what it takes to make a good cake (m). Now you and your W in the beginning agree to abide by the recipe (vows) and try to make the best cake (m) there is. You start out by following the directions to a T, carefully abiding by the recipe (vows) and making sure you do things exactly as it says with love and care for one another knowing that you are doing this with the other person in mind.

Fast forward a few years and now your W decides that she doesn't like that recipe (vows) and the cake (m) isn't what she thought it was. She thinks the whole reason for the cake (m) is just a way to get sex out of her "legally" while providing for her.

My question is this, how can you two go on baking the cake (m) that you set out to create together according to an earlier agreed upon recipe (vows) knowing that is all she thinks of it? Knowing that her recipe (vows) has more then likely changed from your idea of the recipe (vows). 2 bakers cannot bake the same cake (m) together with varying recipes.

You need to figure out what her idea of a M is and what yours is. And when she tells you what she thinks, ask her what she means by that.
For example- When I say I love you to my WW, my definition of Love carries certain thoughts and meaning with it. Now when my WW tells me she Loves me, I know it's not the same Love I'm thinking about for her.

What does it mean To honor and love one another, cherish each other, have and to hold in sickness and in health, for better or worse, forsaking all others?

What will you accept and not accept in a M? Will you allow her to remain friends? What are the boundaries of the M?

Vows are the God given foundation and recipe for a successful marriage.

Just something to seriously think about.

(((((2long)))))

Recovery is much harder than Plan A.

My personal opinion is that your wife just plain hasn't had to deal with the consequences of her choices, which is why she is still babbling this crapola. Of course she and RM think you didn't care what they thought or did - there were never any real consequences! I know that Plan B just isn't possible for you - but you know - I do think that the chances of getting divorced (in general) are much higher without it.

Anyway, 2 get back 2 your situation... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

THIS is the woman you are married to.

The question that you have to answer is: Can you spend the rest of your life with THIS woman?

This isn't something you have to answer right now.

THIS is who she is. You've been aware of this for awhile, but I don't think you've really reached acceptance on it. And until you do, any decision you make is simply going to be a forced solution - which doesn't work any better in recovery than in the face of active infidelity.

Something that helped me tremendously was written on my bedroom mirror along with my famous "Pain is a given, misery is an option" slogan.

At the top of my mirror were the words: "THIS, or something better."

The unstated caveat is: "But you have to let go of THIS first".

Letting go doesn't mean divorcing (you've been here long enough to know that already) but it does mean accepting that THIS is who she is and learning to make decisions that are good for 2long based on THIS instead of what you wished/imagined/hoped was true.

((((((hugs)))))))

I'll beat a dead horse here...

Your wife has never known what it would be to truly lose you. She's had your support and your patience and one after another One more tries. You are doing her an disservice if you go straight to divorce with the attitude "But you've had so many chances to get it, don't you understand now I'm done!". SHE'S A WW!! She's never FULLY pulled out of the fog, because she's never HAD to. She has no consequences. One day she'll wake up divorced and she STILL won't get it. Because she hasn't ever had to really make a choice about losing her foolish pride or being alone. She truly has seemed to pull her head out on occasions..but because she's still got her security net...it goes right back in as she tries to strut her individualistic thinking.

Lets get real. She doesn't want to be alone. And she does love you. She's really enjoyed these past weeks and months getting closer to you. What do you think would happen if you pulled the rug now?

Anyway, like someone else said. No rash life decisions right after you just had a fight and after you've been drinking. If it's really a good decision, it will continue to be for another week. Ya know what I mean, Vern?

2long - Where are you??? Put down that beer, or at least stay off the roof. Hugs from California.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long:

"But the bad news is that she reiterated that she never wanted 2 be M'd, still believes that M is "legalized prosti2tion", and doesn't agree with my, or anybody else's view of what M should be."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next time ask your W if it wouldn't be better if you released her from her 'prostitute' life with you.

<small>[ October 26, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Good, in that my W has felt comfy enough 2 tell me more about how she feels about us, about the A, about our fu2re.

Yes, she has been telling you for a LONG time about how she feels about you and your future... you just have not wanted to believe the truth and REALITY of it...

such as...

But the bad news is that she reiterated that she never wanted 2 be M'd, still believes that M is "legalized prosti2tion", and doesn't agree with my, or anybody else's view of what M should be.

I don't find it so great to have an open and honest relationship when the spouse talks and feels like this..... that wouldn't make me emotionally closer to anybody, just because it is in the name of "honesty"....... get real..

I've been played the fool all this time

Yes, you have.... At some point I have been hoping that you grow some B***s and maybe start to see that this "loving her unconditionally" is really no more than being her doormat...

There I said it.....

You have been on here since Feb. 02.... Why don't you try a different approach? Are you too stubborn or afraid to stand up and say you do not want to be married to a person who views your relationship as she does?

Your best chance of saving this, is of course the same as what almost always works... Let go, let her see you moving on, and quit trying to beat a dead horse.....

I am sure you will get a lot of others to keep telling you to hang in there so I won't give you any of that, since I am sure there will be plenty.

I am sorry, but I just do not see what you are getting out of this except for continued hurt, and grief and frustration, for a few crumbs when the RM distances himself from her from time to time....

My $.02. The "legalized prostitution" line is 30-year-old feminist bull***t (and I'm a feminist). It's time for her to outgrow it.

That line signifies a real erosion of values, and was cute when we were at university (that's when I first heard it). After a few decades, we should have discarded that concept.

I wouldn't let it hurt you. It's too immature.

For what it's worth, 2 more cents worth from me, and something I have been wanting to say for awhile...

This "legalized prostitution" business. I feel like I "recognize" this statement. My mother says it, and another one of my mother's catchphrases is "a woman takes her life in her hands every time she has sex with a man". Neither is a positive statement, to say the least, when it comes to relationships. Given that my mom has said both these things to me over most of my life, I have to try to see where she has been coming from. Given that I think she held these views while she was married to my dad, I have some kind (only a little) of sympathy towards his infidelity.

I don't know about 2long and his wife, but I'm from California, and I grew up in LA in the 1960's, and both my parents were sufficiently "counter-culture" to be counted "anti-Establishment". These ideas are "catch-phrases" from the 1960's, from a certain era of what I guess I think of as "anti-morality" - when anyone who thought of himself as "liberal" and intelligent threw away any notion of traditional marriage and faithfulness, and allowed themselves the "freedom" to think of marriage as being different from what their parents "bought" into. I suspect that Mrs. 2long's ideas about marriage go back to that time, and she clings to these ideas like a security blanket, they represent part of her idea of being entitled to be independent as a woman, not defined by her "Mrs" title. That's the context in which I see her saying these things.

It's easy for us to look back, from this vantage point of 30-40 years, on the 1960's and 1970's and say - "free love", well, that has all been a bit hollow, and more traditional ideas of marriage are proven to be more "healthy". We, especially once we spend some time here at MB, have much more definite ideas about commitment, faithfulness and intimacy, and consequently, perhaps, we have higher expectations. But many of these "liberal" ideas are still around, and they still mean something to women, who still find themselves tied to men financially, once they have children. "Legalized prostitution" implies a trade of sex for financial upkeep. I am not sure that Mrs 2long can claim this excuse anymore, (aren't your children nearly grown-up, 2long?) and I suspect her repeated stating of this is no more than a smokescreen to put up a barrier to intimacy whenever she finds herself feeling close to 2long. Basically, whenever she says this, it means he has got past her defenses, and she has got caught out feeling good about him. Its her self-protection mechanism, no more. What is it they say? Don't believe anything they say?

I'm not telling you you should keep going, 2long - I think I understand the kind of agony you could be in. I'm just trying to get a handle on what is actually behind that statement which I know hurts you so much, why she says it, what it really means? I am not sure it should be taken literally, is what I mean.

Signing off now, but keeping good thoughts for you.

LIR

What would happen if each time she said that you laughed and said, "Hey! That line dates you!" or "Get a life!"

Well, I feel like a compleat idiot!

S2pid, s2pid, STEW PID!

I can't even see the sense 2 follow my own advice 2 others. My W was finally making a BIG STEP in being honest with me and I reacted, withdrew, and got drunk. What a foolish thing 2 have done.

We spent a 2ple of hours on the water heater for the apartment yes2rday, maybe more, which blew a BIG leak in the morning as I was just getting ready 2 come 2 work 2 put a presentation 2gether for 2morrow. That helped a lot, but I needed NOT 2 drink, but THINK. I was civil enough with her all day, but she doesn't like it when I drink 2 much (I'm usually a silly drunk, not a loud or violent one, but when I'm in a mood, I just get moodier). We watched an episode of Farscape on DVD as we hit the sack last night, but she sensed I was withdrawing from her again.

The GOOD NEWs is that she recognized this and started a convo about it this morning. I acknowledged that my behavior was the opposite of what it should have been - which was 2 be SUPPORTIVE and SAFE for her 2 finally open up that much 2 me after all these years. What JL told me last year is true - long term As take a LONG time for the WS 2 get over. She's doing that now.

She's hurt that Rat Meat doesn't want 2 talk 2 her anymore, but she does acknowledge that I need NC from her end 2, and that SHE needs it for her own sanity. She even said that he isn't a friend, when I told her that her idea of keeping the friendship will not work. We talked about the personal sacrifices she's made in the past few months because she DID make the conscious effort 2 restore our M. These are big deals. She quit her job because RM consulted for her (and wasn't finishing the work he was paid 2 do anyway). In the process, she gave up a long-time goal of doing some reasearch on the collection of data that she'd compiled (with his help as her consultant) over the past few years. Then, she took another job in the same field - the one that had her visiting his workplace in August. But she quit that because she realized that with all the time she'd be away, our M would not survive. Even RM told her that it wasn't a sensible thing 2 do, though he referred 2 the financial side of it. I don't think he cares 2 this day about our family staying 2gether. I think he's angry that she hasn't left us when their A broke his family apart. Consequences. That's just 2 damned bad.

Anyway, I've been so high-horsey for so long on here about how the BS needs 2 be especially patient and caring during exactly this kind of time, that I feel like a chrome-plated twit for behaving the way I did yesterday. I told my W essentially that very thing this morning.

-2long

believer:

"2long - I'm in Plan B. Like you I just got too worn out, and tired of the deception. However it does sound like you have a good relationship with wife."

I'm glad that it showed through all the negativity. We usually do have a good relationship. Particularly in the past 2 months, since she quit the 2nd job and saw RM for the last time. Even so, the "divided affection" was affecting our relationship. Still is, but at least we're talking about it. We don't agree on everything, but we're making the effort 2 understand the other's viewpoint.

"We just have to get rid of ratmeat."

Yes, we do. He may be "gotten rid of" by now anyway, though. I find it awfully tempting though, 2 send him an email saying:

"I was only recently told of this $1000 check from my W 2 you last December 2 help you get in2 an apartment. I understand she told you it wasn't a loan, and that it was from her personal savings account. I want you 2 understand that I don't feel that it was in any way appropriate for her 2 give you money 2 help you avoid facing the consequences of your thoughtless, selfish actions. You *should have* had 2 sleep in your car when your W threw you out, assuming I believe that you couldn't have stayed with a friend for a while until you got on your own 2 feet - but I don't believe it for a New York Minute. I would appreciate it if you would send my W a check for $1000 as soon as possible. Then, please remove yourself from our lives for the rest of your life. You are an insult 2 our family and my W's emotional well-being."

"Can you hang in there a little longer and try to take care of some of your needs?"

Yes I can!!! I didn't say in the above post that we talked a lot about emotional needs. My W said a lot of things that were almost scripted out of HNHN, which was very heartwarming 2 hear. She still won't read the books, but I will consider getting myself back in2 counseling with the goal of inviting her 2 join me. I think it might work this time... ...but I do have an amazingly full schedule coming up. Phone or email counseling (perhaps with cerri) might be the best thing for me now.

"I've seen lots of your posts and you are a good man."

Thank you! I hope I am!

"I hate to see you feeling so hopeless about this. Maybe this is the dark just before dawn."

I hope so. I guess I should have seen this kind of thing coming. After all, everybody has said (like BR did this thread) that recovery is harder than plan A, even harder than early post D-day. I think this is what they meant!

"Hugs from California. "

Thank you, also from California!

♥ ol' 2long

Everybody:

I need 2 post this quickly and get back 2 work, so that I can be home for the rest of the afternoon. (My W also said, this am, that the hardest part about having quit her jobs is that she's home a lot 2 think, 2 cry, and she misses me when I'm gone). I certainly don't want her 2 feel like we're "going back 2 the way it was before" where she felt neglected... ...and sought attention elsewhere.

Anyway, I re-read LIR's posts several times (cutting in2 my time 2 reply!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), and I will think long and hard about the books she recommended, and long and hard about the perspectives she has on the "marital prosti2tion" issue. This viewpoint makes sense in a whole new way. Not that the other suggestions I've heard over the past several months didn't make sense (even 2 her).

I grew up in the 60's, but was a "good Christian" during that time, and in the words of Oingo Boingo "the counter culture passed me right by!" There was a fascinating miniseries on PBS several years ago, entitled something like "Making sense of the 60's", which 2k a very harsh view of the atti2des purported during that time. "Free love" was an excuse 2 take sexual advantage of women (particularly). Harsh, but with some real truth there. After all, the "free loving" men could move on 2 another lover if things got 2 "intimate" or 'someone' got pregnant. I remember a classmate in HS telling me during a Trig class one Monday "girls don't understand sex. It doesn't 'mean' anything. It's just for fun!"

And then there's the feminist movement. My W comes from an anthropology background. Independence is a big deal 2 anthropologists, particularly females. Her grad school had the highest incidences of As between professors and grad students, or among grad students, of any place I am aware of... ...but then I fogged a lot of that out as "it couldn't happen 2 us" even when it was happening. The marital prosti2tion thing always puzzled me, 2, because my W has always said it was "great" with me. She even said it wasn't ever "satisfying" with RM - it was an EA primarily (which I got her 2 understand is more harmful 2 a lot of M's than a so-called "full-blown" PA). We had SF again this am, after the conversation. She told me over and over that I'm very good at it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and I don't think she was just saying that. She's starting 2 understand and appreciate it when I tell her that "I bring my emotional connection 2 SF. I couldn't have it or enjoy it much if it were just plumbing".

Probably shouldn't say this, but her friend from the job that RM worked for her on said this 2 her, as she was telling her about hearing the "rumor" at work that my W was having an A with RM "I know you wouldn't do that. I saw a pic2re of him, and you wouldn't have an A with someone so unattractive as he is!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry, have 2 go giggle some more. Anyway, this friend would likely put "attractive spouse" at the top of her EN list. Neither my W or I would, so although it was funny and a tiny bit reassuring (he is 12 years younger than I am), it was nothing more, really, than a tidbit of honesty about the conversation.

Boy, I'm not getting that work done, am I?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You all have no idea how important it is 2 me that you replied 2 me. I send out gratefulness in four directions!

♥2long

2long - You sound much better today. Hope you can hang in there a little longer. You and wife seem to have quite a bit going for marriage. Please don't give up yet. You've fought the good fight so far, I would hate for you to quit one day before the miracle.

Things sound good for you now. She is saying things that you want to hear. Be careful. As you know...there are ups and downs. She will be there with you one minute and a million miles away the next. Be ready for that and don't let it de-rail you when it does happen. It is part of this crappy process. Stay focused and don't let yourself get to swept up in things when they are good. Enjoy it, but don't be suprised if things take a turn again. It seems like you are headed in a good direction. Just remember there are a lot of turns on the road to recovery.

Good luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />