Hi 2long,
I don't recall ever posting to you, yet I have read your posts and posts directed to you many times.

I totally feel for your frustration. I've been stuck with all my love but no response for a while too.

It's easier to note good points and objective observations when you read posts directed to others, because naturally you are more emotional on your own thread.

A lot of statements about your W living thru no consequences of her actions, you hanging onto what ultimately might be just your hope/fantasy/ wishful thinking versus who your W really is and what is she doing really comes close to home. Also that lack of plan B/separation and heading straight to the DV might be consciously giving up a useful tool for M fixing - if you are still intersted.

I can offer no advice yet, other than maybe lurk on mine or Sue threads. Maybe some comments posted to us will help you to get "unstuck".
Which is what I wish for myself too. I have been carrying Plan B letter for a month now.
At least your W is talking.
Good luck,
FBOW

Hi 2long,
As I said, it is really hard to always know what to say. In fact, I don't always know what to say.

In some relationships there does come a time to let go. I told you once I thought yours would last, but I feel I don't have the right to tell you what to do if you really felt it was time to go.
I am glad - relieved that you are feeling better about things now. I have learned to avoid "having it out" with my W when she says things that hurt me. I usually go quiet and wait a day or two and I read (usually Love Busters or HNHN) and THEN I talk. I used to rant but now I mostly say my feelings about what has happened and I am quiet and try to be respectful. ( note I said I try, I do not always succeed, and you know exactly what I mean.)

Sometimes she is hurt by what I say, and sometimes I am hurt by what she says. Once she told me it was an LB to hurt her feelings by being honest. I replied that if I was respectful, didn't get angry or yell, and simply stated my feelings and it still hurt, then it was her problem, and that I have a right to my feelings. I also tell her that some of my feelings may be based on mis-trust, and may not be based on fact, but that's why we talk. She also sometimes is hurt by things she feels - because she misjudges my intent. We can usually forgive if we believe the intent was good, but it doesn't come out as wanted when we speak the words.
.
In your case, I think she was trying to be honest but then tempered her remarks after she realized how it affected you. I also believe that we (and she) often say things that are not quite right - in other words, we say :"I think this," or "I feel that" and later we find out that we really don't have those feelings but in the heat of the moment we said them for effect.

I believe there are things bothering her deep down that are the source of some of the things she is saying - things that are not your fault even though you bear the brunt of the pain of the remarks.
If you (or anyone) were able to plumb the depths of her soul and get at all the demons inside her heart, you might find she loves you and had no desire to ever leave you but that she lacks understanding of her own self, and that the frustrations it causes comes out in conversation as negative words on marriage.

Another thing to consider is that no one can go on forever in a relationship when their partner keeps insisting that they love someone else. You are good, but I don't know anyone that is THAT good. I sincerely doubt that I could do it for very long.

I hope other conversations you have had since cleared up some of the problems statements she made. I echo the remarks of others that encourage her to seek counseling. If she is making remarks like "marriage is legalized prostitution" but she stays with you, it tells me that she has conflict within that needs to be understood and dealt with. It would seem others feel that way also. I think you would be safe to point that out to her in a kind and loving way. Not with sarcasm, but with love. ( note, I believe you would use love, but I have reason to believe she may consider it to be sarcasm when she hears it.)

You may be able to approach it from the point of view that because you love her, you want her to be able to work these things out in her mind so these conflicts don't continue to eat at her.

You continue to evolve and grow, and your ability to help her increases as you do so. When you talk to her, you often give her words the same weight as someone that has studied as you have studied - but she is not at the same level. That is something to keep in mind when you talk. She is still not using rational, carefully weighted words. She is speaking off the top of her head, still thinking she needs to win when she talks to you. Our emotions affect the way we see these conversations, but if you can remember this, you will say different things when you speak to her - you will seek to help her understand, not to put over one point of view.


Please don't get down on yourself. Just look at what happened, learn from it, and go on. Do continue to wait and think after you have damaging conversations. DO NOT make decisions until days after them as to what you will do about your M.

Do realize that we love and care for you and will continue to help as best we can. Also realize that we are friends, not professionals. I hope we do help.

Please don't be angry with me, but I disagree that 2long is stupid. I think 2long is human, but that's as much as I'll let you get away with. Seems like there's never a 2x4 around when you need one.

I am glad I know you.

SS

Ah! 2L,

The growing pains of a marriage. I think yours is growing and there are definitely pains. I think you expect too much from yourself to expect that things your W says won't hurt you or that you won't retreat from the hurt. What you do, do is come back and you do talk with her, and you do recognize you withdrew and you reengaged.

2L, you are a man to be proud for knowing.

I like LIL's post to you very much. As someone who was even older in the 60's I will say it was a pretty screwed up period. But, I think your W is falling back on this "cliche" because she hasn't fully been able to face what she did to the marriage and to you for 12 years.

Don't you see the irony of her statement. She felt is was prostitution, so who goes out and effectively gives this description meaning? She does. I doubt she is very proud of what she has done. I strongly suspect given the time the A lasted that she is still in withdrawal and will be for perhaps another year (after NC is finally established).

I do think it is very good that she is opening up and being honest with you, and I suspect she knows you don't have a lot left in the tank. So she is trying. Do your best 2L, that is all you can do.

2L, keep up the good work.

God Bless,

JL

Finally got out of that meeting!

Yeah, JL, I mentioned that little tidbit about the prosti2tion thing back in May or June, "If M is legalized prosti2tion, then what is an A?" A: "That's prosti2tion, 2." ...at least RM treated her like one. I never have. And no, that's not a kind statement, but I can't currently find any kindness for RM. Maybe someday. But by then, you and I will be searching far and wide for any remaining protons... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am finally recognizing the signs that "true withdrawl" has really started, as well as the signs that some fog remains. But in there also is the fact that she HAS made some serious personal sacrifices - she's essentially "quit" her career, or at least the focus on the same subject RM works in. She says she still doesn't know if she can "trust me" (not 2 do things like leave without notice, for example), yet she's taken this leap of faith that requires that she do just that.

I do remember your statement about the length of the A and time 2 withdraw from last year. And it does give me some trepidation 2 contemplate a long withdrawal period, but I think I can do it. Again, almost more importantly, because I know I have 2 recover whether we do it 2gether or apart. Might as well do it at home.

Regarding counseling, I think it's time 2 resume. 2gether, and individually. I am happy with the conversation we had Sa2rday about "emotional needs" and those that were not being met. She said things that could have come from one of the Harleys themselves, so I don't think it would be inappropriate 2 even suggest MB-style coaching 2 her at this point. She may want 2 resume with our Kaiser MC, which I will be willing 2 do rather than nothing, or if they have no problem if I'm seeking MB coaching at the same time. I still have reservations about some of the things that the MC seemed 2 be saying at the time, like indefinitely suspending our visits last year. She may have realized that we were so "not on the same page" at that point that we either couldn't reconcile or we might as well go away and take communication classes or something before resuming counseling. My W was deep in the fog then, 2. Some of that remains. I can tell because things like the anti-M remarks come back (almost as a self-defense mechanism during an argument, like the "internal conflict" SS alluded 2) even after we'd previously "resolved" the issue. But we can talk about it now unlike before, so I don't think these fog-bound fog-latin statements are insurmountable.

I've 2uoted this so many times here, but it's centrally relevant 2 our troubles right now. The difference between privacy and secrecy. My W doesn't want 2 concede that the contact with RM is secrecy. I want 2 email this 2 her. I've wanted 2 before, but never have, because I didn't do well with the "co-dependency" email. Whadaya think?

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

-ol' 2long

Why did you misunderstand her during the first conversation on Saturday?

What can be done to prevent misunderstanding next time you talk?

SS

SS:

Simple. The things that hurt the most 2 hear are also the things she's most reluctant 2 say. So... ...they're far less detailed than the things that are "easy" 2 get off her chest (or mine, when it's me doing the revealing of something I feel).

What can be done? Simple, but not easy: We need 2 be safer for each other 2 open up like that. Only by having a conversation, a real conversation, about these things, not just a few words from her, misinterpreted by me that cause me to clam up again.

That's been the problem all along. And that's why an OP is "not the problem, but a symptom of the problem", but a BIG FAT SYMPTOM that keeps blocking the BS' view of the road 2 recovery. And when we can't see around the elephant, we aren't "fun" 2 confide in and aren't all that helpful in getting the WS out of the fog, at least the way the WS thinks they'd like 2 be helped (meeting ENs, that kind of thing). I sucked pretty hard at it for most of the past year and a half.

-2long

How are you going to make it safe for her when hearing these types of things invokes such feelings in you?

Have you got a plan for that? Or are you just going to "try and do better next time?"

LOL, come to think of it, I tried it that way and it doesn't work well for me. I have to walk away and come back later. I do explain when I walk that I am distraught and will be better able to discuss things later on when I am calm.

Another point: it always takes me longer to be calm than I think it does. I need to do something other than think about her words when I walk away. If I think about them, It eats at me until I think of some great thing to prove I am right and I run to tell it to her - but it never works like I wanted, and I am better off doing 50 push up's and 50 sit up's or reading something and getting it off my mind completly before going back and speaking to her.

What did she say about your reaction to what she said? Did she encourage you to make things safe for her? Did she want to make sure you understood her real feelings? Are they realy her feelings and how do you know?

Hint - she is kinder to you, she does nice things like going to get pastries that you like, she doesn't avoid you like she used to, she snuggles more, talks more, shares her heart more. Unless she was a really good actress it seems to me that these things mean something - even if they don't speak. That's why I have been thinking she is beginning the recovery thing. Why in the world would she do these things if she felt like she never wanted to be married?

Anyway, I am GLAD you are doing better.
Hope work is not taking all your energy.

Tonights the night
Gonna be alrightttt
hmmmmm hm hmmmmm hm
Oh, sorry, my wife walked by and I got distracted.

Do well.

SS

SS:

"How are you going to make it safe for her when hearing these types of things invokes such feelings in you?"

By detaching further from the hurt. I realize, though, that doing that involves some risk - risk of not caring what she does if this takes 2long. But I also noticed, during our convo last weekend, that when she remarked about her question of a year and a half ago "Can you truly love someone enough 2 let them go?", this time I said "I have let you go, in the sense that I know that I can't control you and that I don't WANT 2 control you. I have learned that, in order 2 have an emotionally healthy R with you, that I needed 2 become a healthy individual. No 'borrowed functioning' or 'emotional fusion' or 'mirrored identity', as Schnarch describes it in his book that you read. Remember when you said 2 RM in an email over a year ago 2 him, one of those that I saw? You said "we bring out the best in each other." Schnarch uses that very phrase as an example of an emotionally fused relationship." My W responded with a little surprise, but I think she understood. But the point of all this, in answer 2 your 2uestion, is that it is far more rewarding 2 have conversations like THAT with my W than 2 evade the sensitive things. That does neither of us any good (something that Pepper said 2 me in July about my reluctance 2 tell my W about those emails, which I relayeed 2 my W over the weekend, with POSITIVE results). It's still hard, though, but part of the process, I guess.

"Have you got a plan for that? Or are you just going to "try and do better next time?" "

Hm... Take your pick, from my description above? ;o)

"LOL, come to think of it, I tried it that way and it doesn't work well for me. I have to walk away and come back later."

I still need 2 do something like that. But I think it's important 2 recognize and make clear that's what it's about, because instead of walking away, I just shut up. Harder 2 read my intent when I do that.

"I do explain when I walk that I am distraught and will be better able to discuss things later on when I am calm."

my W is better at that than I am.

"Another point: it always takes me longer to be calm than I think it does. I need to do something other than think about her words when I walk away. If I think about them, It eats at me until I think of some great thing to prove I am right and I run to tell it to her - but it never works like I wanted, and I am better off doing 50 push up's and 50 sit up's or reading something and getting it off my mind completly before going back and speaking to her. "

Me 2.

"What did she say about your reaction to what she said? Did she encourage you to make things safe for her? Did she want to make sure you understood her real feelings? Are they realy her feelings and how do you know? "

Lots there! Well, she did encourage me 2 make things safe for her, but she's not "with the program" so she didn't use MBish words so much. The next 2 2uestions, I'll have 2 think about a while. I think she wants me 2 understand her feelings, but I'm not sure she really fully understands her own feelings all that well, or at least why she acts the way she does based on them.

"Hint - she is kinder to you, she does nice things like going to get pastries that you like, she doesn't avoid you like she used to, she snuggles more, talks more, shares her heart more. Unless she was a really good actress it seems to me that these things mean something - even if they don't speak."

You got it.

"That's why I have been thinking she is beginning the recovery thing. Why in the world would she do these things if she felt like she never wanted to be married?
Anyway, I am GLAD you are doing better.
Hope work is not taking all your energy."

Work needs more of my energy these days! But at least the schedule for next month changed so that I can go 2 our house out of state with her and her friend, whereas I didn't think I'd be able 2 take the time off. No R talk, just fun.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> Everybody: (My W also said, this am, that the hardest part about having quit her jobs is that she's home a lot 2 think, 2 cry, and she misses me when I'm gone). I certainly don't want her 2 feel like we're "going back 2 the way it was before" where she felt neglected... ...and sought attention elsewhere.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L: Finally, she has slowed down long enough to catch up with herself. This is marvelous and could be a great time for coaching/counseling. She could make some real breakthroughs here.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably shouldn't say this, but her friend from the job that RM worked for her on said this 2 her, as she was telling her about hearing the "rumor" at work that my W was having an A with RM "I know you wouldn't do that. I saw a pic2re of him, and you wouldn't have an A with someone so unattractive as he is!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry, have 2 go giggle some more. Anyway, this friend would likely put "attractive spouse" at the top of her EN list. Neither my W or I would, so although it was funny and a tiny bit reassuring (he is 12 years younger than I am), it was nothing more, really, than a tidbit of honesty about the conversation.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love it that she shared this with you! Perfect! Also he's a worm for taking her $1000. Does he have no sense of decency? CSue

CSue:

"2L: Finally, she has slowed down long enough to catch up with herself. This is marvelous and could be a great time for coaching/counseling. She could make some real breakthroughs here."

I think so. I need 2 talk 2 her about counseling. I want 2 resume. I think it could be enlightening (finally!) for 2th of us.

"I love it that she shared this with you! Perfect!"

Yeah, it's a first. But I gather she has a pic2re of him somewhere, and she didn't want 2 show it 2 me. I think that her reasons are understandable, but so are mine for wanting 2 "know my enemy," except that, if all goes well, I'll never see him anyway.

"Also he's a worm for taking her $1000."

I agree! I was hoping for some feedback about my sample letter, above. I will tell her what I think of her giving him money, but it would be fun 2 ask him 2 pay it back!

"Does he have no sense of decency?"

Do you really want me 2 answer this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

♥2long

From the little bit you relate of that three hour convo, it sounds like you are doing much better at reacting to what she says.


I don't know if I can help you much, because other than small lapses, you seem to understand what is needed and how to do it.

I do vote to have the title of this thread changed. Stupid is such a strong word for a momemtary lapse in judgment. Shorter though, and easier to write.

SS

Still:

Okay, I'll change it. You're right. Even ol' 2long isn't s2pid! (reminds me of a cute 2uote I heard as a youngster - basically at or below the age of most of the people here!): "I may be dumb, but I'm not s2pid!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But you're "momentary lapse" comment reminded me of a Pink song that I haven't heard in years. When I looked it up, Lo and behold! It's about infidelity!!! Now, I've never done anything like this, but it is a well-written song:

"One Slip" -Pink Floyd

"A restless eye across a weary room.
A glazed look and I was on the road to ruin!
The music played and played as we whirled without end.
No hint, no word her honour to defend.

I will, I will she sighed to my request.
And then she tossed her mane while my resolve was put to the test.
Then drowned in desire, our souls on fire,
I lead the way to the funeral pyre.
And without a thought of the consequence,
I gave in to my decadence.

One slip, and down the hole we fall!
It seems to take no time at all.
A momentary lapse of reason
That binds a life for life.
A small regret, you won't forget,
There'll be no sleep in here tonight!

Was it love, or was it the idea of being in love?
Or was it the hand of fate, that seemed to fit just like a glove?
The moment slipped by and soon the seeds were sown.
The year grew late and neither one wanted to remain alone.

One slip, and down the hole we fall!
It seems to take no time at all.
A momentary lapse of reason
That binds a life for life.
A small regret, you won't forget,
There'll be no sleep in here tonight!

One slip ... one slip."

Wow,
That song applies to what we do here. Aren't you glad you never went there?


I shouldn't worry much about my friend 2long these days, but after the scare I got over the weekend, I sorta do.

Does 2long feel emotionally well today?

SS