Only WS and FWS can truly answer this.
While you are in the A is there anything that the BS can do to change your thinking? Does the BS trying to bring you out of the fog have any positive effect or simply drive you further away? After the A ends, do you realize that there was something that the BS did, or something the BS could have done and didn't, to pull you away from the OP? I know that the MB principles of PlanA/PlanB are basically for the BS and that you can not change someones behavior unless they want to change. So should the BS act as if they are going on with their lives without you? Does that even bother you?
I am not talking about withholding money or crying or asking WS to leave. I am talking about effecting a full-blown, passionate, double D-day, WS leaves BS/OP leaves S, plan on living life together, long-term A.
Can any FWS, or anyone else, help with this one?

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: 23down ]</small>

23Down:

I haven't visited this site for a terribly long time, but your post jumped off the computer screen at me. I felt compelled to make some attempt at a contribution.

This may or may not help you, but hopefully it will offer some insight. I'll just let the words flow. As a WS, fighting one's way out of the fog probably differs with each person. Obviously, people react differently to stimuli. There are probably as many reasons/causes for having an A as there are excuses for having one. But I suspect some marriages are not worth repairing for whatever reason. Mine is worth saving. Believe me.

The "beacons" for me in finding my way out of the fog include my spouse's commitment to the marriage, her strength, personality, sense of humor and a wealth of memories. Those are the things guiding me. Just the same, I am gripped in the fear that the damage I have done is so intense, so severe that I may not have a chance to regain the happiness I once knew.

Knowing my spouse is going on with her life does indeed trouble me. It's a grim reminder of what I am missing and what I placed in jeopardy through my selfish actions.

The forces pulling me out of the A and hopefully back into recovery are more internal than external. But that's me. I can imagine others may be either "pulled" back or "pushed" farther away by constant nagging, demands or threats -- things which may have contributed to the A initially. I don't know. I only know how I feel.

I firmly believe, however, that you cannot change someone who does not want to change. You may temporarily alter their actions, but until they want to change and feel a deep commitment to change, then any gain is relatively short term and most certainly fragile.

I don't know if this helped or not. But I tried.

Hello..

I am a WS and I am gonna be totally honest with you..I agree with foolish bird..unless the ws is truely commited to changing and wants it to be over with the OP than there really is nothing you can say or do to change thier thinking. I am married to a devoted, loving h and father and wish terribly that my feelings would go away for om..however, i am not ready to end it. And, there is nothing that my H could say or do that would change my feelings at this point. I totally realize how selfish and awful this sounds. I am sorry for that..I am just being honest with you.

I can't speak for every WS naturally, but when i was deep in the fog, the only thing that even got through to me was a period of time when i thought my H was developing a relationship with another...that thought really made me sit up and take notice of what i was creating...and question myself as to what i was 'wishing for'...

meandgctbe, do you actually mean if your spouse filed divorce you would not end the A? Wouldn't that pretty much shake your world a bit?
I mean it's one thing when you have both worlds, but when you're faced with losing one, I'd think it would make one come to some decision?
Just asking as curious BS.
Thank God, my WS woke up when I found out and ended the A immediately. He had to choose. For I was not going to have him if not all of him!
Think of the risk of what you might lose and see if it changes some thinking?
If you wouldn't care to lose your spouse, then end the marriage now?
Only fair I'd think.
Not flaming you, just being and honest BS.
Marriage is meant for two only or not at all.
And thanks to the others who wrote here. It's a helpful post and enlightening. LouLou

I have entirely too much experience to draw on here, both as WS and as the confidante of each of my OPs.

Of my five affairs, ONE ended the way it should -- with an NC letter (to me) soon after the affair became known to the OPs partner.

The other four trailed off and were more friendships than anything else long before I took any specific action. Why'd they trail off? Our lives went on, and I had become more and more uncomfortable with the idea of living my life that way. It was most of a year between my last physical contact with any of them and when I formally ended the affairs.

Why'd I let them trail off? Because they didn't feel "right," though I couldn't put a finger on why and WP had long since disavowed any feelings one way or the other about the major place where we interacted -- online. She felt that it was just a glorified form of storytelling, not something intimate and dangerously seductive. In any case, each of the affairs had become little more than a friendship, and had been that way for a couple of years when WP became involved with OM.

As for why I formally ended the affairs? Two reasons, one good and one not so good. The Not-so-good reason: My WP's affair had come into the open, and I was frightened that my WP would expose my affairs in revenge. Each of my OPs is or was married, and I had no desire to see their lives torn apart by what was happening in mine. The little I could do was to expose my affairs to her family and mine (which I did) and then NC each of them. Which I also did.

The good reason: I had already come to the conclusion that these affairs weren't giving me what I needed in life. I needed to end them and in large measure already had. I don't know whether I would have NCed them if WP had asked me to. I really don't.

I do know that in the course of the affairs, WP occasionally became very unhappy with something I did with one or the other of them. I'd say that there were a handful of times when I didn't practice POJA at all well. (Not that I knew what that was at the time!) There were at least as many times when WP didn't like something, so I changed it so that it no longer made her unhappy.

So what can I say out of all of this? What would I have done if WP had taken a more active role? I would say that there were times when nothing she said had an effect on me. And there were times when I saw her hurt, or anger, or pain, and I acted to alleviate her suffering.

Summary:
- Fear (in the WS) works wonders, but can also backfire and create really ugly situations.
- Hurt, anger, or pain (in the BS) can also work, but has to be seen over a period of time and processed through the WS's foggy head.
- Internal growth (on the part of the WS) works best, but probably takes the longest.

Thanks to all WS for coming forth and replying.
Foolish Bird, meandgtcbe, and dreamcatcher; welcome, or welcome back, to MB.
It seems from these posts, as I suspected, that there is very little that the BS can do to influence the WS in the A except perhaps to let them know that they are still loved and can return.

Foolish Bird (FWS), you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suspect some marriages are not worth repairing for whatever reason. Mine is worth saving. Believe me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you come to this realization while still in the A, or after? What is it about your M, which you were thinking of ending, that makes it worth saving?
You also said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am gripped in the fear that the damage I have done is so intense, so severe that I may not have a chance to regain the happiness I once knew. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this because you are afraid that your BS will never be able to forgive you? Or do you fear that your M (which can never be the same) can not now be as good or better than it was before?

meandgtcbe (WS), thank you for your honesty. Yes, it does sound selfish, and you are obviously struggling with it. I might suggest you read His Needs/Her Needs to try to discover what is missing in your M and what emotional needs the OM fulfills. Does your H know about OM?

dreamcatcher (WS?), this is interesting. I have seen other WS post that during their A they were bothered by the idea that BS was possibly seeing someone else. Are you saying that as the WS you become concerned that if your H began a R he would be closing the door on any chance for you to return? And that even deep in the fog this made you question the A? Very interesting!

nm

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>

While you are in the A is there anything that the BS can do to change your thinking?

Absolutely, 100% YES..

For example... When the affair is first discovered by the BS, they usually go into the begging, pleading their case, and trying anything to get the WS to turn around mode.

This HELPS to CAUSE the WS to THINK thoughts of feeling pressure, and moving farther away and defending their actions.

Now, let's say that the BS suddenly STOPS all pursuit, and suddenly doesn't ask any questions, or seem to be worried or care anymore and seems to ACCEPT things as over, and seems to be moving on with their life.......

This can IMMEDIATELY change the thinking of the WS, from thoughts of "How do I get out of this?, and I need some space," to ones of.... "Have I made a mistake?, and did I push her or him too far?", and thoughts such as these... It natural for it to happen because of the ACTIONS of the BS....

So, for any BS to even think that there is nothing they can do to change the WS way of thinking is a total misconception. Our actions and attitudes toward others almost always count toward what they are thinking about us.....

The thing the BS has a hard time facing is the fact that IT MAY BE OVER, and that the WS may not return, so they then want to believe that nothing they can do will change the WS mind. Maybe it won't change their mind, but your actions do have an effect on what they think, just as their actions have an effect on what you think....

From my FWW days:

1. A BS being firm and not being pushed around. Drawing the lines and standing on them. (but also inside having enough mercy to be flexible, just not showing WS where they will be flexible - which depends on what WS is doing)

2. BS showing that WS is improtant to them

3. NC

way2,

I read your post and you mentioned # 3 as NC. Which form of NC were you referring to? The BS not having contact with the WS during the A?

Now What

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 23down:
asI suspected, that there is very little that the BS can do to influence the WS in the A except perhaps to let them know that they are still loved and can return.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a marriage coach who specializes in infidelity - particularly in ending a spouse's A - and as a FWS I strongly disagree. Take a look at the story of my A here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=003687

There is very much the BS can to to rock the boat and make having an affair far less of a fantasy relationship and much more conflicted and open to the scrutiny and disapproval of the world around them.

PlA is not just about "being nice" and showing that the marriage would be a good place to be. PlA is a STRATEGY TO END THE AFFAIR, and that includes taking very proactive actions such as confrontation and exposure.

C

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

23down,

<<Are you saying that as the WS you become concerned that if your H began a R he would be closing the door on any chance for you to return? And that even deep in the fog this made you question the A? Very interesting!>>'

I am reminded of a specific situation that shook me up a lot...even smack in the middle of the A, when i had convinced myself that i wasn't 'in love' with my H anymore and really thought i was just waiting for an opportunity to leave. (H didn't know about the A)...we were at a party and H was having a good time, doing a little 'flirting' with a woman that i know he had a 'history' with (from way before we were married)...anyway, while i was sitting there watching this interaction, i was shocked to find that i was terribly jealous..yep, here i was having a full blown affair, and i was jealous of my H doing some harmless flirting with someone else....kind of made me see what i was doing a little more clearly, and proved to me that i did still have feelings for my H, they were just clouded by the fog i was surrounded in....

it was a long time after this that the A finally ended...but i see that as a reality check that i kept with me until the end...and the question...'if i did leave H for the OM, would i be able to handle the reality of him 'moving on' to a new relationship.?....made me see that the whole thing went two ways, and in not giving much effort into the marriage (who could when consumed by the fog?)..i was pretty much holding open a door for my H to go the same path i did....looking elsewhere for the emotion he wasn't getting at home...

How does the BS "know" whether the WS is "truly committed" coming back to the spouse and trying to make the marriage work?

I agree that there are things that can be done. In my opinion that's what Plan A and Plan B are all about. In our situation we knew nothing of either and we followed the same path of destruction that most, who have no plan, do. There is no "if you would have said this, or done that, all this would have been different" kind of answer...it's a process. It's a gradual changing of the tides in your favor. And even then, one has to be prepared to accept the worst...that even with all your efforts, it may make no difference. All you can do is try.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does the BS "know" whether the WS is "truly committed" coming back to the spouse and trying to make the marriage work?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When the WS says the words "I'll do whatever it takes to keep this marriage", and backs it with action. When the WS is enthusiastic about turning over passwords, and open to being honest and working on the marriage. Remourse is pretty helpful, too, but evidently not always obvious.

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: hope4future ]</small>

<<How does the BS "know" whether the WS is "truly committed" coming back to the spouse and trying to make the marriage work?>>

I think the answer to this would be that the WS ultimately has nothing to hide so willingly and enthusiastically(sp) shares voice mail passwords, email access, etc...of course, a lot of WS can share all of this and still have things to hide...they just get better at hiding it...i think sooner or later all secrets reveal themselves, and on some level you just 'know' if your spouse is being sincere.....

Thanks again to all. Even though I may not be able to reply to all I appreciate everyone posting.

cerri, good to hear from you, your reputation proceeds you. Immediately after D-day I did the begging, pleading, crying thing. Then I did a solid PlanA for nearly six months. I exposed the A to almost everyone I thought should know or could help. I contacted OMW, and she and I have worked together to disrupt the A. WW and OM even went to NC for three months. They returned to the A mid-July, and I went to PlanB. And so I am asking WS and FWS if there is anything else I can do to penetrate the fog.

dreamcatcher, I really do like the idea of having the WS wonder if the BS has found someone else. On your first posts I wasn't certain whether you were WS or FWS. I now understand that the A is over. How long did it last, and how long have you been out? While you were in the A did your BS know of this site and have you or your BS used any of the MB ideas (PlanA/PlanB, PlanB letter, NC letter)?

Anyone else with advice or ideas is welcome.

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: 23down ]</small>

New Branch,
My H does not know about my A..He strongly suspects though and just told me tonight that he doesn't want me talking on the computer anymore like I do and he doesn't want me going out on the weekend. I have to make a decision real soon..If my H finds out..He will divorce me and I cant imagine losing this world..however, my world is forever changed now and I cannot imagine a world without OM either..It is pure torture! And I know it is awful of me to do what I am doing. Thanks for the question.

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: meandgctbe ]</small>

23down asked:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> way2,

I read your post and you mentioned # 3 as NC. Which form of NC were you referring to? The BS not having contact with the WS during the A?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myad demanding NC with OP

I didn't like this part but I stayed because I knew with all the other things that had been said that he loved me, and would continue to love me as I have never been loved before.

But also how I became a FWW is probably less like how most FWS find themselves there. My story -- full details on the May 7 entry

way2

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: way2 ]</small>

23 down,

To answer your question..NO, my H does not know about OM. He is very suspicious though and I know I have to make a desicion soon. thanks for asking and good luck to you.