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I have posted before about my cheating,lying w . She works at a retail store,and an old friend hangs around there for over an hour a few times a week. She says he is just saying hi,but it does not take that long to say hi. She is having an emotional affair that will heat up to a physical one soon. He wants sex like most men. This is how her past affairs have started. She told me she is not going to tell him to stop visiting. I have told her that she is hurting me,and it is like she is chosing his presence over me. I have forgiven her before,and she may lose another job if her boss finds out there is a tiny bit of trouble at the store.What is the best way for me to tell her the guy must go away?
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the best way for me to tell her the guy must go away?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that there is any way for you to do it without it being a love buster. She is the way she is because she likes it and there is NOTHING you can do to force her to change. The only person you can change is YOU and one good way to do it is for you to STOP all love busters (selfish demands(dictate),angry outbursts(abuse),disrespectful judgements(criticize),etc.), and if you are interested, follow Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list:
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.
<small>[ November 03, 2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MISTERSTEVE:
<strong> I have posted before about my cheating,lying w . She works at a retail store,and an old friend hangs around there for over an hour a few times a week. She says he is just saying hi,but it does not take that long to say hi. She is having an emotional affair that will heat up to a physical one soon. He wants sex like most men. This is how her past affairs have started. She told me she is not going to tell him to stop visiting. I have told her that she is hurting me,and it is like she is chosing his presence over me. I have forgiven her before,and she may lose another job if her boss finds out there is a tiny bit of trouble at the store.What is the best way for me to tell her the guy must go away? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WW started with an EA too. She also refused to stop initially. That was 4 years ago. Looking back, I would have followed Dr. H's directions more closely.
Specifically, tell everyone what is going on! Bring it on!!!! Let the sunlight shine in on her. Force her hand.
I think too many of us put up with this crap for faaaaarrrrr too long. We should draw up some reasonable bounderies and enforce them. What is acceptable to you?
Jesus maintained strong boundaries in the Bible for marriages. An A is a God-given right for a divorce! Now God "hates divorce", but keep in mind how intollerable it is to continue an A for Him too.
I blew it by trying too hard to be a nice guy for too long. The real deal was I turned into a faciliataor of her dysfunctional behavior. The REAL nice guy would've drawn up some boundaries and stood behind them. If the marriage was over...so be it. Move on with the blessing of God behind me.
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Mister, I would say that you have gotten very good advice from TMCM and High F. I am surprised that your w is so open with you about what has been going on </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She told me she is not going to tell him to stop visiting </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. As a WS I tried to keep everything hidden especialy my feelings about the OW. In my case the OW felt a lot of guilt and ultimately that is what got her to stop seeing me. It wasn't anything her H said to her about her behavior, but he didn't know about it either. There is no telling what have happened if he knew what she was up to but the OW said that if he did know, and he came close to finding out from my W "he wouldn't have given OW a Chance". SO I would say that High F is correct when he says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I blew it by trying too hard to be a nice guy for too long. The real deal was I turned into a faciliataor of her dysfunctional behavior. The REAL nice guy would've drawn up some boundaries and stood behind them</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. Sounds to me you are helping her continue with her bad behavior. Good luck H
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hiker: <strong> Mister, I am surprised that your w is so open with you about what has been going on </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She told me she is not going to tell him to stop visiting </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. As a WS I tried to keep everything hidden especialy my feelings about the OW. In my case the OW felt a lot of guilt and ultimately that is what got her to stop seeing me. It wasn't anything her H said to her about her behavior, but he didn't know about it either. There is no telling what have happened if he knew what she was up to but the OW said that if he did know, and he came close to finding out from my W "he wouldn't have given OW a Chance". SO I would say that High F is correct when he says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I blew it by trying too hard to be a nice guy for too long. The real deal was I turned into a faciliataor of her dysfunctional behavior. The REAL nice guy would've drawn up some boundaries and stood behind them</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. Sounds to me you are helping her continue with her bad behavior. Good luck H </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is not open about her cheating. The only thing open are her legs. I have to catch her in all these lies. I went to bring her a coffee,and he was hiding his van around the back. She has his numbers in her addy book. He also knows I am mad about this,and he still visits her.
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Misterstever,, went back and read over your posts..they pretty much all say the same things about your wife, her actions with other people... then people post back you and ask what about YOU... what is becoming tolerable and intolerable to you and there is silence... What exactly is the status quo in your home between you and your wife.. do you two talk at all do you meet any needs of eachother.. are you social with eachother are you affectionatte with eachother are you fighting alot. verbal/physical acting out? do you LIKE eachother at all?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Are you two locked in a powerstruggle battle feild ? Or is it hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil dead silent zone...where everyone ignores what is happening.... Have you tried Plan A at all to define yourself and meet all the needs of her you can to make your self more appealing? What I am saying is we hear you over and over...about the behaviors your wife engages in... enough about her... what about YOU what do YOU want.. really what do you want..too reconcile this... to live like this and learn to accept that it is her...(which is a choice that you can make..) You have yet to say what you want out of this... so that is my question... we/you can't do much about her actions... but your's are a different story... ARK
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^: <strong> Misterstever,, went back and read over your posts..they pretty much all say the same things about your wife, her actions with other people... then people post back you and ask what about YOU... what is becoming tolerable and intolerable to you and there is silence... What exactly is the status quo in your home between you and your wife.. do you two talk at all do you meet any needs of eachother.. are you social with eachother are you affectionatte with eachother are you fighting alot. verbal/physical acting out? do you LIKE eachother at all?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Are you two locked in a powerstruggle battle feild ? Or is it hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil dead silent zone...where everyone ignores what is happening.... Have you tried Plan A at all to define yourself and meet all the needs of her you can to make your self more appealing? What I am saying is we hear you over and over...about the behaviors your wife engages in... enough about her... what about YOU what do YOU want.. really what do you want..too reconcile this... to live like this and learn to accept that it is her...(which is a choice that you can make..) You have yet to say what you want out of this... so that is my question... we/you can't do much about her actions... but your's are a different story... ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your right ARK.I keep posting about her bad habits,and disgusting lifestyle,but what about me,and how do we get along? Well,I have known her since she was born,and she is my best friend,and we have everything in common. She is a good mother,and hard worker. We have sex about 6-8 times a week,and both enjoy it very much.She has quit 3 jobs,and made some changes to try ,and has cut down on her bad behavior.WE dont fight much until she gets caught in lies,and flirting. That is about twice a year.Her whole family,and the counseler have heard our story 100 times. It has been going on for 18 years.I told her I will probably stay. I have taken alot of emotional abuse,and she knows that I wont divorce her,so she continues her cheating.Melody said it best that I have allowed her to repeat this cheating,by forgiving her too easy,and not leaving at all. I keep posting,cause I believe there is an answer ,or good way of telling her that she is way out of line with her bad habits. She needs help,and only she can change herself. Her sister is going to talk with her this week,and she has to tell the guy friend not to come around anymore.
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She is right. It is your fault that she continues to cheat. She has been through the same drama with you countless times and knows in the end you will do nothing. She is not going to change because she has no reason to change.
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Yosh, I am not saying ever ever ever that it is mistersteves fault that his wife cheats... mistersteve is allowed to decide for himself what behaviors of others are tolerable/intolerable in his life... my questions for mistersteve are driven because it sounds like there are things that are intolerable to him...on the surface.. BUT when he goes deeper it appears to be different.. Mistersteve based on your response..it appears that you do accept that your wife does this and will continue to do this... and that it is the norm for you.. I offer that living with the abnormal long enough becomes the norm...and that there may quite a bit of rationalization on your part... ie Betrayed Spouse Fog Talk !!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Well,I have known her since she was born irrelevent.. and she is my best friend Here's your fog talk/thinking emerging..best friends do not treat eachother the way your wife treats you... her behaviors would be intolerable in most friendships and would be dropped...if the definition of friend includes things like betrayal, lieing, dishonesty, and putting others own sexual health in danger..then she is a great friend too you..if these things are not the defintion of friendship..then she is not a friend.. it is a slippy slope...(that's how we say slippery round here)..when we change the definitions of common words to fit into our lives...we are really dropping standards and expectations... and we have everything in common really steve, are you an adulterer also.. do you choose other women over your wife and children.. do you flirt with lots of women... .I told her I will probably stay. really, why don't you care and value yourself enough to never say such a thing?? I'm on your case because you are "here"... and "here" is where we confront things and try to look and approach it in a different way.. You say a lot of negative (ugly) things about your wife... She is not open about her cheating. The only thing open are her legs. and all that fog talk you told me about her...i believe the above statement is closer to how hurt you are really feeling... You are choosing to do nothing in this...and that is your choice..but not "here'....we we try to make other choices.... it's like you reach out again and again with a new post topic..then disappear or go dark when people respond with any type of feedback about you and your actions... I am concerned that you have taken a victim mind-set a feel powerless in all of this.. You are "here" for a reason...what do YOU want from here... I know i'm annoying...like a parasite... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ARK
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ark^^:
Mistersteve based on your response..it appears that you do accept that your wife does this and will continue to do this...
and that it is the norm for you..
HI ARK
I am not accepting her flirting,and behavior.If I was,then we would not be argueing,or she would not be quitting jobs. We have gone to counseling,and she lied to him too. When people reply to me saying I have not done anything to change the situation. The only thing I can do to change it is maybe leave,but she might take the time to cheat more. There is nothing I can do. I talked enough. She has to decide on her own to change. Most husbands would have left a long time ago. What would a husband do about this situation if they wanted to keep the marriage going,besides put up with this?
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mistersteve I know this is hard... and i am not just saying these things to annoy you or bug you... I save all my bugging and annoying for other people <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> arguing is kind of the same thing you have done for years... it is a pattern that in all reality is probably comfortable for the both of you...(even when you don't like the argueing per-say) it is exactly what she expect you to do... I don't think the only yhing you can do is leave.. I think you plan A your hiney off with serious 180's in there.. that you quit the powerstruggling and start doing actions that get her attention... Be pleasant , happy and upbeat around her...be thoughtful and kind and interestd in her... BUT start going and doing things on your own...get her attention by not arguing but by withdrawing your attention and value on her negative actions.... I would seriously look at any mixed messages you may be sending to her about her behavior and see if they match how you really feel.. I would go to counseling alone..and when questioned why tell her..well see I am married to a person I cherish who does not cherish me and i need to figure out what I am going to do about that... and walk away.... quit telling her you will never leave her...you don't know that you won't... ARK
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MisterSteve,
Probably better than most I can understand exactly your dilemma for I was once in the same position. Once an EA gets to a certain point, we as BS's are often in the ultimate no-win situation. We have accepted the behaviour of our spouses for such a period of time and even verbalized our desire to make it work at all costs, that our WS's develop a mindset that we will never end the M and there will be little or no consequences for their actions. If we suddenly draw a line in the sand so to speak, we wonder if that will push them into the arms of the OP. So, we either learn to tolerate the behaviour and enable more of the same or put our foot down and quite possibly lose our spouse completely. My XW's EA went on for three years (that I know of) and it became clear when, after we separated for the third time and her OM moved in with her after only 3 weeks, that this A was actually a PA for quite some time.
During the last year of my marriage I was in the same predicament you are in now and I tried everything. I talked and begged and pleaded argued with her about her behaviour but nothing got through. To her I was trying to control her and dictate her life. Then I found this site and tried so hard to apply the principles of it. I posted once or twice but I read all I could read about A's and what different people had done. I continued to try but it soon became apparent that nothing was going to change her mind and I could not go on the way things were. I can see now that things got to that point partly because I let things get to that point. I should have defined the boundaries much, much sooner than I did and maybe things would have ended differently. When I finally told her that I could simply not continue being in a M such as ours and as much as I wanted it to work, I could only reconcile if he were gone completely and forever, she didn't believe that I was serious. When she finally realized I was, it drove her straight into his arms instead of waking her up as I hoped it would. For a long time, I blamed myself for giving up when I did and I truly felt that my decision to put my foot down was the wrong one. I can see now that indeed it was the correct decision but simply should have been made sooner. By delaying and trying to be the "good guy" so she would see who she was better off with, I was actually making it easier for her to get more and more lost in the A and that is where I went wrong.
I am now very close to my divorce and you know something? I am happier than I have been for many, many years. It was a very tough road at times but I have my dignity and my integrity intact and I really like who I am at this point in my life. She, on the other hand, is very unhappy. She is still with the OM but their relationship is one based on control, obsession and jealousy (no suprise there) and she is carrying his child. She feels trapped as she never has before in her life. Unfortunately, her realization came too late for our M to survive and the ones who pay the ultimate price for that are my two boys. They are doing very well though and have adjusted to the changing reality. At this point all I can do is be the best father I possibly can to them and be the best person I can be for me.
I started rambling here, and I think I am going to start a thread with some more rambling about my situation in hopes that it may help someone else, but my point to you is this. Even if it is too late to set the boundaries and draw the line because of your past acceptance of your W's behaviour, you have to ask yourself are you willing to live with situation as it stands. I know that for me, it got to the point where I knew I couldn't go on with things the way they were and I had to take action - that action was the catalyst that ended my M but it was not the cause. The cause was the A. As I said I am going to post a thread with even more rambling about my entire situation with the hope that it will help someone else. Maybe you can get something from it. In either case, I wish you the very best. Keep your chin up and know that no matter how things end up, there are indeed better days ahead.
All the Best
B
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You may be interested in reading Ken and Michelle's story for it appears very similar to yours.
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