Hi MB friends,
Two weeks ago tomorrow I had a 'revelation' that I had to stop, give up trying, and sit back , move on and not worry about exH anymore.

So guess what happens last night? He came by with the boys, and there was a minor repair in the home that he took upon himself to do. I kept saying, "Should I call a plumber?", but he fixed it.

As he was working on it, I was in a nearby room working on a huge project/presentation for work. After awhile he sat on the sofa with the children and I went to fetch a tool he needed, in my bedroom from a previous repair done by a family member. I became overcome with extreme emotion as I was looking for the tool. I set it on the counter silently, and then I walked back to the back of the house and stayed there, crying quietly in the dark. The house is spread out so no one heard me, I'm sure of that. I didn't expect or want any attention, I simply felt like bursting inside.

He left while I was in the back of our home, so I went and left a message of thanks on his answering machine before he'd arrive at his place and I apologized for disappearing but said I was overcome with emotion.

If I don't care, and I've given up, why do I feel this way? Why do I burst into tears when he's near, and in our home?

I still feel I must DO SOMETHING before just giving up completely. I'm even thinking of giving him my copy of Surviving An Affair, accompanied by yet another letter. Or I wonder if I should just wait this out longer, and just give it more time. I thought I was over all of this, but I'm not at all. Even though he does have his difficulties, I still love him and want him. We lived together as a married couple for 17 years before I got entangled in the A. I've been his friend in one form or another for 30 years. I'm not perfect, he's not perfect-- but I feel we were good together, despite the problems. Am I just a complete dreamer? Help, please!

Any input or ideas, thoughts..etc? It's like I had a slight break in wishing/hoping, and now I'm back where I was 14 days ago, before the 'revelation'.

Thanks for your help and patience,
H+P

<small>[ December 14, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

hopeful_person,

You are still in the 'coaster because you see him and you let him fillin your ENs. Some IC said it would take 4 months per years of your M, you will be healed in 4 years and 4 months <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . However as dr. phil says, it is not the time but what are you doing about it matters. You have to sit back and think about it and make a very difficult choice in your life. Do you want to reconsile or not ?. Not if it is possible but do you want it ?. If you don't you have to close your LB$ from him and put your guard up. NC if you have to !. If you do then r u ready to plan A?.

-rh-

H_P,
I wish I had an answer for you.

JL uses logic very well. Logic says that you try for so long, and if it doesn't work, you move on.

Then there is emotion. We have feelings and they create a life that is much richer in some ways, but much more difficult in others.

We are helpful with ideas, we make suggestions. We encourage, and we point out things that perhaps you don't think of, but you have to choose what you will do.

You will probably get lots of suggestions, but you will have to go with your mind, and your heart.

Even now, I have thoughts that I wish for you, but It is probably best if I leave you to examine your own feelings.

He does have faults. I have faults, You have faults. Are they fatal ones? Once you lived with those faults, and your needs were not met. It took a toll on you. It is not - CAN he learn, but WILL he learn?

I read your first post on your previous thread, and I read this one. It's almost like you are writing about two different people. What creates that difference in how you feel?

If you stick it out, you have to be willing to do the work. I don't know if it will be any easier. Neither do you. I think it would be hard to stay away from someone you love.


Are you a complete dreamer? I don't believe you are.

I don't know if this helped, but please know that I care and will pray for you.

SS

<small>[ November 03, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks Redhat for your fast reply!

I'd once read you don't reply to WS, so I am happy that you did to me here tonight. It seems to me it's the first time I've had a reply from you. I truly appreciate it, I have always admired your advice and thoughts here.

The truth is I do wish to reconcile, of course. I have wanted this for a long time now. I think I fooled myself into thinking for awhile that he wasn't what I wanted, so why bother..but I know that was just a rationalization to deal with the ongoing rejection I've been receiving.

You're right, it's best to continue Plan A. Many of my 'real life' friends and family have told me to move on, forget it. On the other hand, one dear friend (in mid fifties, been married 37 years )told me today, "Well, you are the one who loves the man. You were his wife for years..they don't know him as you do." This is oh so very true!

IF that formula for recovery is right, I have even longer as the marriage was official for 21 years. That's five years, four months, right?

I can't bear NC with him. I hadn't seen him, and I somehow thought I could just let go of it. I love him very much. But if it's so one-sided, do I ever have a chance? That is the thing I worry about.

Thanks for letting me go on too long here...

HP

Thanks Still Seeking,
Just saw your reply too. I appreciate deeply that you care and have taken the time to respond.

I know it is like I'm talking about two people when I describe exH. Truly though, he is a caring person. He is simply very quiet and reserved.

My mind and my heart tell me not to give up yet. I guess that isn't using much logic. Maybe I can't bear the thought of completely giving up, when I had something and now it's gone.

I did seek something outside the marriage. I feel I'm a very different person now than that immature, needy woman. Being alone has forced me to grow up in many ways. But, you're right..the work is largely mine to do.

Thanks , I have a lot to think about. It'll have to wait til tomorrow evening--too much work pressure going on tomorrow to dwell on this too deeply as I fall asleep.

thanks for caring,
HP

Hi hopeful,

I dont have the amount of experience in marriage, but i know with boyfriends that i have felt the same way, after similar circumstances.

i have tried, when i am missing a person, to remember what i disliked about them. this might sound harsh, but too often i have romantically wished that the person was just their good parts, the person i am comfortable with, who helps around the house. the truth is there were real parts of them i didnt like. and that maybe this distance that you have had is leaving you sentimental for all the good stuff. i am not saying that it is, or that you should not give it a try and hope and change and grow. just maybe do the excersize to see if you can remeber the bad things too. it is important to know it from both sides.

you can see my post and give advice too! "help, i'm attracted" from jeez

best of luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HP,

I usually stayed away from WS's post b/c of my own situation, I was struggeling w/ forgiveness. I am better at it and I could say I forgave my WS but I never forget w/ she has done and I have no wish of reconciliation. I do reply to WS, Jen is one of them and I always lurk many posts when I have time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hopeful_person:
<strong>IF that formula for recovery is right, I have even longer as the marriage was official for 21 years. That's five years, four months, right?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no formula at all in human relationship, it is very dynamic. You could healed very quick if you take the right steps. If you are a Christian you know you have the best conselor there is, all you need to do is ask Him to help you out and He will give it to you in His way and time. It is not the time it takes but what you do with the time !.

Steps to heal in this case ...
1. Have you deal with your baggages that you might have and brought into your M ?. Child abuse, alcoholic mom/dad, anger of Dv from your own parent or anything that is not deal and put to closure before. Seek IC if you have to.
2. Know that you have to forgive your self in your A. It is not finding excuse but take the responsibility. You have repented, that is very good for your own healing. Now you have to understand the different between BS and WS. WS take the step to have A, BS could be easily have done that too. If you beleive in the Bible, Matt 5:27-28 You have heard that is was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that whoever looks as a woman to lust for her has already commit adultery with her in his heart. Also this is the famous verse, John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. He loved us, He forgave us who are we can't forgive our sin ?.
3. Ammend him. It is not out from guilt but it is the right thing to do for you and for your kids. If you do it out of guilt and your H could take advantage of you and make you a doormat ... read Jen Brown's thread. You have a training partner to help you to identify ENs & LBs and apply it and also the rest of MB concept to make you a better mate w/ him or w/ someone else.
4. If you do all of the above you will know when you are ready to move on.

Seek Him and have a personal relationship with Jesus ... He knew the outcome and He has the address & name of our mate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-rh-

<small>[ November 04, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

H_P,

Ok, Got my MALE SOLVE THE PROBLEM NOW hat on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Are you ready.

First you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The truth is I do wish to reconcile, of course. I have wanted this for a long time now. I think I fooled myself into thinking for awhile that he wasn't what I wanted, so why bother..but I know that was just a rationalization to deal with the ongoing rejection I've been receiving. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P, I will repeat what I have said before. I don't think he is rejecting YOU. He has had no other relationships even one date since the separation. This is NOT about you, but his reaction to what you did. He is hunkered down big time, but he is not rejecting you, he is rejecting life as you know it and want it.

So if you understand that, then what you may want to consider is helping him, even if it does not lead to you two back together.

Now being a guy, and hating to see people hurt, and wanting to solve the problem NOW, I would like to suggest to you that you call him, tell him to get his A$$ to a resturaunt of your choosing. Tell him you are buying and his is listening.

Then once you have him appropriately strapped down in his chair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You tell him a few things and you ask him a few things.

You tell him.

1. I have goals in my life and one of them is to repain the damage I caused you. Why?
a. I love you.
b. I know we could live an enjoyable life together.
c. I owe you and I know why and what went wrong.

2. I want to know several things from you.

a. Did the A hurt you?
b. Did you love me before our affair?
c. Did you want to leave the marriage before the affair?
e. Apart from whether you want to remarry or not, do you feel any love for me?
f. If yes, is your fear that I may hurt you again stopping you from acting and reacting when you are around me?
g. Do you ever foresee being remarried to someone in your life again?

h. Would you consider letting me in to help you recover, not just cover up, even if it does not lead to marriage.

3. I need some things from you. I need you to not only come over and fix the plumbing, but I need you to come over and fix me. But, fixing me means simply talking to me, and listening to my apology. Letting me be a part of your life so that you can move on with yours even if it means I am not part of it. I need you to allow me to make amends for what I did to you, us, and our marriage.

4. H, I have deep love for you, but we both need to move on either together or apart. I prefer together, but no matter which way it is, we need to address deep issues within ourselves: my need to make amends to you, and you the deep hurt I caused you. I know for my part I need your help to make amends. I would like to help you with your hurt and answer any questions you may have for me.


H, if you will do this with me and for me, I will do what you want: either leave you alone, become just friends, or become your W/lover again. It will be your call.

Then unbuckle the restraints in the chair, and just sit there and look at him until he starts talking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

H_P, as you can see, I am back to the frontal assualt approach again. I think it may well help because he seems like a man that does not want to hurt peoples feelings, and he does this by being passive. So you will have to pin him and give him little wiggle room.

Further, if you get answers to some of these questions you will better be able to decide on whether to stay or go. No matter which it is, I think you both will be happier, if some things happen. One is that he hears and understand your need to make amends as best you can. Two, he needs to give voice to the pain you caused. Then I think you both can reach a decision and move on with the knowledge that you addressed the issues, and they have been heard by the other.

SS, made an interesting comment about "logic" vs. "emotion". I tend to agree with him, but I also feel that "emotions" have their own "logic", or perhaps the word is "purpose". I don't know.

I do know that it is best when your "logical" side aligns itself with your "emotional" side. Hence the need for the two of you to hash this out.

I doubt he can conceive of you really loving him and still have done what you did. I doubt he understands that you "ALWAYS" felt that no matter what you did, he would be there. The great irony of this whole situation, is that although you failed him and sought someone you were more comfortable with, you had such confidence in his strength that you felt you could not really hurt him.


SS is right, a lot of this stuff doesn't lend itself to linear "logical" thought. But, I do believe there is a cause and effect, and therefore somewhere deep there is a "logic" to this.

I am wondering if the problem with your exH either letting go or coming forward is that he simply cannot figure out his own emotions. I am betting he does love you, and is drawn to you, but he is also a part of him is saying he cannot trust you and must stay away. He is very confused is my bet. So he stays near enough and does not start another relationship, but he dare not open up because he fears he will love too much.

Just thoughts H_P. But it is clear that you either have to go full no contact to move on as you stated earlier (sort of like your exH has done) OR you are going to have to face your own emotions, your own feelings, and your hopes for the future, and see how things work out. That will take patience, and perhaps that frontal assault I keep mentioning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What bothers me the most is that I cannot offer you the solution, and that just bugs the "fix it" part of me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But, I do hope that something I have said is of help to you.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ November 04, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Thanks Redhat and JL for your replies.

I just came home after being gone for 15 hours...a huge day at work and then an important visit to a girlfriend. DSs were with their dad.

I am going to print out your responses so I can reread them , and think before I reply . A bit too tired now to be productive.

Thanks so much for taking the time to care. It means a lot to me.

More later,
HP

JL why dont you just stop posting here ?????

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Start your own marriage counselling center man... (Mr. Harley beware of JL)

To H_P

JL has already hit you point blank

1) Your H may really have problems regarding emotions and puts a wall always to save himself

2)Did you meet all his needs in the M before A ?

3) He might have become emotionally numb. I was in such a state once for 4 months(after my A)I did not bother about anything (that includes my own illness which was actually severe and i still have pain walking after 1.5 years, you are complaining about H not meeting your parents and not calling his brother)

4) he is just living... sort of a working vegetable. Might be a big big time emotional shock when you left him . He might not have shown it as he has become numb

5) Is he in depression?

6)JLs attacking method is may be the thing he needs. Dont just stop with one attempt. Keep on pestering him.

7) He had something special.He built and believed in things which he now finds as a lie and farce.
So why bother building again?( his view)

8) He must have loved you so much. He might not have overly romantic and outspoken. He loved in his own way.

I was having a lot of such problems. I am young and single man. My A opened a can of worms inside me and i have fought hard to become outspoken, funny and conveying emotions. I know who I am now.

9) Why dont you ask him to help you in domestic things ... (like fixing things, he wont deny you all the time... )

hp

I'm shaking my head here with a big grin on my face. I have so much to say abd such little time. I am working on a very hertfelt response to you.

For now, can you go back to your other post and read my replies to you....

I understand exactly where you are right now. I'm going to try to explain your dilemma from my own experinces as of late..

edited to add:

Quote:
If I don't care, and I've given up, why do I feel this way? Why do I burst into tears when he's near, and in our home?

Good questions HP. I will provide you with 1 answer. It isn’t exactly the right one for you, but at least it’s one avenue that you can think about.

Quote:
I still feel I must DO SOMETHING before just giving up completely.
Haven’t I been trying to get you to do exactly that! J


Quote:
Any input or ideas, thoughts..etc? It's like I had a slight break in wishing/hoping, and now I'm back where I was 14 days ago, before the 'revelation'.

So very normal. You’re putting too much energy and focus onto getting him back in your life. What you’re missing is that you have a very deep need right now for intimacy and love. You are so deprived of this in your life that you are throwing in the towel because of frustration.

You asked me why I repeatedly state that I’m ahead of you. I am in the sense that I’ve already gone through this part of our journey and I am close to standing in the other side. What you now feel is allowing me a chance to look back at the last six months. I can see exactly what you are going to start to feel and I understand it, though I couldn’t then.

Enough dancing..here’s what I have to say.

In talking with my IC, I have realized that my whole life has been a desperate attempt to find someone to love me. From the moment I could understand, I lived my life in complete terror. There was no safe haven for me, no one knew how to love me. My life was in crisis from the get go so the minute that I had some attention, I thought that it was love. I held onto it with my heart and soul because it was some refuge. No matter how abusive that situation was, I continued to stay because for me, it was equivalent to love.

Be patient, I promise this is going somewhere.

Once that relationship fervor wore off, I found myself empty again. I was never coached or taught about relationships, so instead of ending it, I ran to someone new. See, I couldn’t be on my own. I was an empty sheet of paper that was waiting to be written. So, yes I moved in with X, but stayed emotionally attached to my first “love” for a long time.

Well, we all know that the cycle repeated. This time however, you see the change that happened to me. I didn’t settle in with OM. I stopped that portion of the cycle. I am emotionally attached to X – though that dependency is weakening thanks to some great IC work.

So how does this apply to you.

What I found over the last year was that I was doing this dance with X in my mind. I was plan-A’ing as much as I could in hopes that I could earn his love and forgiveness. Just like you, I was repentant, and willing to do whatever it takes, to make him reconsider his position.

Finally, I started to believe all of the things he was telling me. He didn’t love me. He’s getting married. He hates me. He wishes I would have just disappered. I reasoned that if he wanted me, he would be with me.

Similar to you, I went through these cycles of wanting it over, wanting him with me, and back again. It is very painful as you have just witnessed firsthand.

What I finally saw is this:

1. I was more comfortable in the old situation because it was a known thing. See, when I’m busy, and I’m having stimulation that sustains me – I don’t miss X. I don’t think about him. It seemed to be that only when I was alone, with time on my hands, that I dwelled over what was.


2. I hurt quite a bit after having contact with him. I ached to be included in his plans and in his life. I felt that because he saw me in a negative light that I wasn’t worthy of any man’s attention. I felt as if he was the master of my self-perception.


3. I was afraid to let go of X because I didn’t know what the future would hold. I can’t guarantee that I will ever have a situation where some man in my life will love my kids or me. I didn’t know if someone would ever be able to love me after realizing all of the damage that I did to myself, my kids, and to my relationship with their dads.


4. Life is scary and the natural reaction is to gravitate to what’s comfortable.


So what am I learning? I’m learning that I am afraid that no one will ever love me. Guess what! Those are old Kily tapes running. I’m realizing that maybe X and I weren’t meant to be together and that just maybe, he was just a stepping-stone on my journey to discovering who Kily was.

Still Seeking pointed it out for me very clearly – God would not have given me the gifts that he has, if I wasn’t meant to benefit from them.

So I ask you very pointedly –

Are you ready to “SEE” your future very clearly with your H? Are you ready to commit to rebuilding this marriage? If you are, then there can be no out. It’’s very easy – I am going to do this, regardless of my fears because it is the best thing for me and everyone involved. If so, then there’s no giving up – regardless of how hopeless it seems.

OR
Are you just following the same path as me?

In my heart and soul, I know that if I had waited for as long as it took, he would have eventually come back. I realize that I don’t want to wait because I am living out some childhood issues through this relationship. Instead, I am now addressing those issues and opening new doors.

I hope I got across what I was trying to tell you.


Hugs-

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily, Redhat, DH, and JL,

Thanks for your replies. I haven't posted here in awhile . There's nothing new, and again my life is overly busy.

I am going to do the 'frontal assault' that JL has mentioned and others have affirmed. I just haven't had the emotional strength/time to do it. My job has been so stressful lately, that I'm afraid to go out and talk to him some evening and then 'lose it' completely as I fear yet another rejection.

I know it has to be done, I just emotionally can't afford it right now. Does that make sense? I have to keep going in this 'strong' mode for now. It's kind of like my own 'PLan A', but I realize I've been doing it now since August 2002. (Ended awful A in July of that year)

I have printed out this whole thread and am rereading it.

ONE IMPORTANT THING, or is it IMPORTANT- ExOM and I NEVER had SF in the 'conventional' way. There was S contact, but in more of a Clintonesque manner. Naturally, exH doesn't know this. Should he ever know it, or is that something that would/should wait until he wants to work on recovery, if he ever should want to. Does it bear any importance at all? Thoughts, please. I've never mentioned this here, but after reading about men's forgiveness in different areas, I wondered if it should be mentioned.

Before I talk to him, I'm going to write out many of all of your ideas and thoughts as I agree with them. He needs to hear these things.

I saw him this past Sunday evening, and all was fine. I didn't burst into tears, but sat there working on a work project (again) as he was in the room.

I asked for his advice on yet another home issue, and he gave his answer. He deals with me in an 'arrogant' manner, but I realize that's self protection. He's always a bit better on the phone, when he isn't in front of me. That tells me I do affect him more than he admits, or is that my ego?

On the positive side, last week I decided to recommit to working on taking better care of myself. I've always had to work hard to stay slim, and I've gained quite a bit of weight since the separation three years ago. When I was a younger person I was actually a professional dancer (not the sleazy kind, for crying out loud!) so being heavy has been hard on my ego, to say the least. This change in diet and exercise is already making me feel better! I knew I needed to do this for awhile now, but I just wasn't ready to do it until suddenly one day last week.

So that's what's been going on in my life. Again, thanks for your help and support. I will muster up the strength for this discussion with him.

The healthy decision last week to take better care of me is already making me feel stronger in many ways.

Take care and please keep those thoughts coming. Without MB, this would all be so very much harder.
It's been a true blessing in my life!

H_P

<small>[ November 11, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

H_P, I'm rooting for you!! You might want to look at Starman's threads, and what his wife has been doing. Do you think you could take the same approach and convince your husband to let you start to do some of the work with Steve Harley's approval?

And I'm just going to quote these lyrics for you again, 'cause I want to and I want you to DO these things that JL is suggesting.

know you think that I shouldn't still love you
I'll tell you that
But if I didn't say it
Well, I'd still have felt it
Where's the sense in that?

I promise I'm not trying to make your life harder
Or return to where we were

Well I will go down with this ship
And I won't put my hands up and surrender
There will be no white flag above my door
I'm in love and always will be

I am going to do the 'frontal assault' that JL has mentioned and others have affirmed. I just haven't had the emotional strength/time to do it. My job has been so stressful lately, that I'm afraid to go out and talk to him some evening and then 'lose it' completely as I fear yet another rejection.

I know it has to be done, I just emotionally can't afford it right now. Does that make sense? I have to keep going in this 'strong' mode for now. It's kind of like my own 'PLan A', but I realize I've been doing it now since August 2002. (Ended awful A in July of that year)

One of the things I worry about with you - and with others is how much you can take, and how long you can take it. You usually seem very strong when you post to us, and your questions most often take the form of wondering what to do, not wondering if you can go on. I admit I did not see how much it was costing you to continue when it was so difficult emotionally. You have been doing this a long time, and more than almost anything now, you seek some kind of sign that it will pay off if you continue. We are often able to get a second wind if we realize our goal is within our grasp, but you don't know that for sure.

I have printed out this whole thread and am rereading it.
Pay close attention to what YOU say. I think it helps us to understand our own selves to read again our words when we pour out our hearts for help.


ONE IMPORTANT THING, or is it IMPORTANT- ExOM and I NEVER had SF in the 'conventional' way. There was S contact, but in more of a Clintonesque manner. Naturally, exH doesn't know this. Should he ever know it, or is that something that would/should wait until he wants to work on recovery, if he ever should want to. Does it bear any importance at all? Thoughts, please. I've never mentioned this here, but after reading about men's forgiveness in different areas, I wondered if it should be mentioned.

I think it would make a difference to me, but I don't think you can talk to him about that and other specifics until he is willing to commit to reconciliation in general. If you have never talked to him about the A, why it happened, what did happen then I am sure that is part of his fear. The unknown holds fear for most of us, and it sounds like he has little understanding of what went on. The way he reacts to you - even your presence when you aren't talking to him seems to denote fear. Have you ever had a frank discussion with him about the A? Or has he been to distant from the beginning? Sometimes I wonder how he would react if you wrote him a long letter explaining your feelings from the beginning, what happened to your thought processes, as the A progressed, what the A consisted of ( as you mention above) and how you came to realize the truth about the A and your thought processes as you ended it. You could also mention what your goal is now, and how you fear that he won't believe you are sincere and how you fear he won't respond. I believe from comments you have made elsewhere that you have communicated in writing many times and that there are no measurable good results from doing it. I think I mention this because *I* would probably respond well to something like this, and it would probably be a method I would use if I was in your place.

Before I talk to him, I'm going to write out many of all of your ideas and thoughts as I agree with them. He needs to hear these things.

Perhaps you could do something along those lines that would include the points you wish to make. H_P, I have a hard time knowing what to recommend, because I fear for you if you get more rejection, but it is probably true that unless you rock the boat, your $LB will empty before he responds.

I saw him this past Sunday evening, and all was fine. I didn't burst into tears, but sat there working on a work project (again) as he was in the room.

I asked for his advice on yet another home issue, and he gave his answer. He deals with me in an 'arrogant' manner, but I realize that's self protection. He's always a bit better on the phone, when he isn't in front of me. That tells me I do affect him more than he admits, or is that my ego?

I don't think it is your ego. It sounds like that IS how he protects himself. I am learning to see those things in others around me and try to cut out the formality and pretense. " Look, we can keep this stiffness up, or we can learn to relax and be at ease around each other. I know you have reason to distrust me, and I acknowledge that, but I am trying regain your trust. If you can't treat me like your wife, then please at least act friendly when you are with me."

I re-wrote that about 3 times but it still doesn't sound quite right. You would have to do it the way you usually talk and say it in your words, but I hope that is enough of an example that you understand the idea behind it. The frontal approach that JL recommends often works with many things you are dealing with.


On the positive side, last week I decided to recommit to working on taking better care of myself. I've always had to work hard to stay slim, and I've gained quite a bit of weight since the separation three years ago. When I was a younger person I was actually a professional dancer (not the sleazy kind, for crying out loud!) so being heavy has been hard on my ego, to say the least. This change in diet and exercise is already making me feel better! I knew I needed to do this for awhile now, but I just wasn't ready to do it until suddenly one day last week.

I believe you need to continue to do things that boost your self esteem. These things will show up in your efforts because you will have more faith in yourself and your abilities. My W was on the college Ballroom Dance team and traveled the western US with them, so I thought you were referring to something like that. Did you think we would assume the worst? I never do with you, it is hard to think ill of someone that tries to do the right thing as hard as you have been doing.

So that's what's been going on in my life. Again, thanks for your help and support. I will muster up the strength for this discussion with him.

It may help you to write some things for you too.
What will happen if I don't try?
What can happen if I do try? (note, I realize the there can be more than one answer to this.)
Will I be happy with myself if I don't give this my all?
Will I be able to tell when I have given all?

H_P, trying has given you a great advantage over the old H_P. You will continue to improve yourself as you continue to try. You get to keep the improvements no matter what happens, and if you do reconcile, the skills you develop will increase your chances of happiness and success. Once long time ago, I told you not to be afraid to try new things, and this is what I was getting at. You will learn, your abilities and skills will increase. This covers only part of you, the emotional side of you has to be able to take this too, so please be careful with your feelings and plan the big events when you know you can take it.

The healthy decision last week to take better care of me is already making me feel stronger in many ways. It is part of your personal recovery that will aid your marital recovery also. Good for you.

Take care and please keep those thoughts coming. Without MB, this would all be so very much harder.
It's been a true blessing in my life!

Do you realize that your courage and example help and encourage us also? Do you realize that others gather strength from reading about your journey?

Wishing you more good days than bad.

SS

Thanks for your replies SS and Just J. Very interesting and much more to think about and comment on, and I will later.

Just wanted to add that ExH came by today to pick up the boys. He was very emotional looking, and even had to clear his throat a few times. It was obvious he was on the verge of tears. He could barely speak. I was sitting at the table working on a painting when he came into the house, and I was rather near the door. (painting- a hobby I gave up during the A but since started up again, when the fog lifted-it helped me come back to sanity- to paint again.)

I knew he'd gone to a Veteran function, so I asked how that was, and he said it was fine. Perhaps that was the reason for the emotion, but nonetheless it was there. I didn't press harder as he seemed in 'escape' mode.."need tofind boys and leave. " He did bring up something to do with a financial matter, as a follow up. (unusual too that I didn't have to bring it up.)

I haven't seen him look emotional in years, really.

I am formulating what to say to him, when I do meet with him face to face. I need to spend some time on that daily until I get it clear.

More later, have to go to an appt. today.
thanks again...oh so helpful!
HP

hopeful_person

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=025651

Maybe we can help each other understand and get thru this madness.

H_P hi,

You asked about whether you should discuss with your XH the details of the sexual relation you had with XOM. If I remember correctly you have never discussed the A with XH. I recall your H asked if you had slept with OM and you didn't deny. He then initiated the divorce.

XH has not begun to process your A. He doesn't know the extent of your betrayal. He knows your parents accepted OM and look how he has distanced himself from them.

If you are going to have any relationship at all with XH, you are certainly going to have to answer all his questions about the A.

He will probably want to know some details of the sex. Was OM better than him for example. It will probably relate to whatever you and he shared as SF. Now about the Clinton stuff I have a few observations.

1) I don't think men think oral sex is real sex and if you were limited to that he may be relieved.

2) He would find it impossible to ever kiss you on the mouth again.

3) You really did have a very poor deal in your A. You don't seem to have got any fulfillment out of it at all. You have not had SF for as long as your X.

FWIW

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

STunned Dad, Still Seeking, Just J, and Older and Wiser,

Thanks for your replies and thoughts. I can't believe I haven't posted in so long on this thread.

I'm in a relationship holding pattern. I haven't even brought up Thanksgiving with my exH, as I can't take the pain of all of it.

He said he wanted 'baby steps' at the end of July. If these are baby steps, I'd hate to see complete withdrawal.

I haven't talked to exH much lately, and he doesn't seem to notice or care. I did call him the other day to help me out at the last minute with one of the boys and transportation. He was helpful and obliging.

I feel like everything rests on my shoulders--the kids, the house, the yard, the responsibilities of a home, and more. He just has his tiny apartment to take care of, and I think quite frankly he likes it that way.

Work is busier than it's ever been .I started this professional position just three years ago when we separated, after staying home or working just part time at a little non-career type job for years. As far as my present job goes, I've been given lots of extra responsibility, pay, and projects as my boss knows I get things done and I do them carefully and thoroughly. Perhaps it's a blessing, I haven't had time to dwell on my lost marriage.

Will respond more later to everyone's words. I'm off now to work on a work project.

I very much miss my exH and the companionship and more that we had. I do feel hopeful that in time God will bless me again with another marriage, whether it will be with exH or not. For now I need to heal and recover from the H I put myself through in having an A.

God bless
H_P

Bumping up...

I posted above on this thread on 11/22, and thought I might bump it up again.

NOthing new at all, in a 'holding pattern'. Busy with work, not dealing with this much at all as I can't take the pain of it.

ExH called yesterday, didn't even say 'hi', just asked to speak to son. I said, "Hi, by the way". There was a long pause, and he said, "Hi". This is how it goes for me. It's like I'm a non-person to him now.

I feel I've given up, but not out of not loving him. It's a giving up as there are no results and no caring after so very long. The pain of rejection is just too tiresome.

Any thoughts are appreciated,
HP

Sigh!!

You know HP, if any of my ideas were any good you would be a happy woman by now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> In my heart of hearts I know your exH has a heart, he must have. I just fear he has walled it off so completely that he will NOT let you in. It seems he has let NO woman in since the divorce.

I sure wish I could offer you some advice or make an a suggestion that might work. But, I have given you all the ideas I have right now, short of flying out to see you, and going to shake some sense into your exH's head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I must admit the idea appeals to me, although it is a fantasy.

I believe in second chances. I don't know if your exH felt he gave you a second chance. I don't know if you crushed him so badly that there is nothing left in there. If that is true, then I question his devotion, but I also know of BS posters that lost all hope and moved on, and would not let their spouse back in.

I think my advice to you is go with your gut. I think I would suggest moving on with your life, and see if you can find happiness in it. I see no reason for you not to be happy, it just may not be with exH. You cannot control him any better than he could control you.

What do your children say about this?? I am sure they are aware of your feelings for their Dad. Talk with them and see. They are old enough to have opinions and they are likely to be more accurate than mine.

But, most of all look inside and decide what YOU feel like doing now. You have no obligations to your exH, nor he to you. But, I still am an optimist, and I do think time MAY come to help.

God Bless YOU HP, you do deserve the chance.

JL

PS: In case you don't realize it, you are a very powerful and effective poster here. You are helping a lot more than I think you realize.