HP

I don't have any added advice because you have already gotten the best advice possible.

I have followed your thread from the beginning and I just want to say - don’t give up!! Take a break and mend your spirit and work on yourself but don’t quit. I think your H is very conflicted emotionally and don’t know what to say or do so he stuffs his feelings or acts weird.

I am praying that you and H will reconcile. Just wanted to add another name to the list of people pulling for you.

Beau

Thanks, JL and Beau for your responses last week.
Thanks too to Still Seeking for your response on the Thanksgiving DAy thread. I appreciate your kindness.

It is always good to read others' insight into all of this.

My gut instinct is to still not give up. Someone suggested 'dating others' to me the other day. I simply said, "I love my exH, and it wouldn't be fair to anyone else to lead them on at this point. I still want to be with him, and no one else."

You have to go with the gut, don't you? I can't pretend to be someone I'm not, and I can't pretend to be over something I'm not over.

I did have a few 'nice' conversations with him (exH) yesterday and today regarding a business issue concerning the kids. We get along and work together fine in this way. You'd never know we were divorced if you heard us talking. It's very polite and kind, extremely so at times.

I asked him to do me a favor, and he obliged. You're right, JL, he doesn't say no too much. I am just going very slow, letting him feel in control.

I'm continuing on my healthy track of better, wiser eating habits and losing weight quickly . This has made me feel better all around.

I guess Redhat would say taking care of oneself and being kind to the spouse is part of Plan A. I guess I'm in a suspended, low key Plan A.

The other day my mom said, "I don't think he'll ever return to you." I simply said, "Maybe not, but he just might."

And so it goes. I feel hideous at times, and I dreamed of being with exH three nights out of the last four. Isn't that sad? I guess I can enjoy him in that venue.

What is that saying, JL, about dreams? As you dream, so you live?

Time to sign off for now. Thanks again for all your help and ideas,

HP

HP,

You would know when to move on w/ or w/o exH. But for now it is clearly not the time. Have you ask exH to go out to eat dinner or to see movie ?. He did his duty as exH to your kids, now probably time to take it a bit further ... as a freind to you too. Find the right time then ask him to go out w/ kids together ... build a freindship and go with the flow. Holiday season is the perfect time.

In Dv care I have learn that when reconsiliation would not be possible or when you try to stop trying ? ... when either one of you M someone else.

-rh-

Hopeful, I just read your post and I am glad that relief came to you. I am sure it was nice to have him there.

H_P, uh, could I be just a wee bit blunt, here?

When was the last time you kissed your exH?

I mean, well, gosh. He's a BOY. Boys like smooches a LOT!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi H_P

Just wanted to check in and say hello and see how you were doing.

You know H_P, life isn't a dress rehearsal. We only get one go. There is no right or wrong in your situation. I know you feel demotivated and frustrated because there seems to be no moves forward, but is it time for your second attack?!?!?!?!

I don't know really, but as JL says, he never refuses you. What are you doing for Christmas? Could you invite him to join you at some stage for a family celebration?

My gut feeling is that you should give it a big big push one more time. Even ask him again how he feels now after your "baby steps" conversation. Take all the facts, info, and see how you feel then. Are you willing to continue this waiting game, or would it be better for you to move on?

As to dating, well, I didn't think I would be ready, but then someone came along who gave me a lot. It worked. I wasn't expecting or looking for it, so never say never, because you never know!!!!! Sorry to say, me and Yank BF have split. Maybe it was too much too soon, but at least I dipped my toes in the water and tried. It was fun whilst it lasted, and that, my dear, was something I really didn't expect <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I worry about you H_P I do. I am glad you are continuing to take care for yourself, but I worry that you will never make a decision and before you know it, it will be years down the line and you'll wonder what it was all about. You deserve happiness, respect and love in your life. We all do.

Take care friend.

Lisa

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

I keep thinking there has got to be a way to get to him. I think you should follow your heart, becasue I see absolutly no reason not to. I keep wondering what he would say if you asked him point blank if you still have a chance.

The only problem with that is if he was having a bad day, he may say no just to give an answer.

God seems to reward persistance, so it's about your turn for blessings. All of us make mistakes, but I admire your willingness to make this right.

May you find the strength you need to finish it, and may it turn out as you wish.

SS

Thanks to all of you kind people for replying. It means much to me that you've taken time to give me your thoughts and wisdom.

Nothing new lately. I have a virus that doesn't seem to go away. Yesterday DSs called on exH to go with them to the store to pick up some medicine and soup for me, and he did take them.
I also asked him to help me with a furniture moving endeavor, and he obliged me although in the end my brother will most likely do it for me.

Yesterday in my sick-induced state I asked my older son how he felt about the D, and if he'd said a word to his dad about it. Of course he hadn't. I said to him I felt he had the right to tell his dad how he felt, and how this life wasn't great for anyone. Kick me fellow MBers, if you want, but son is almost 18 and I feel old enough to hear it. Knowing DS he won't ever say a word to his dad.

Redhat,
I haven't asked him out for a specific reason in over a year. I will do that again, but in a way at this point I feel in my heart if he again says 'no', then I'm done. It's just dragging on so long, and each 'no' is more painful to me than the previous one. He told me in July he's 'considering' a reconciliation and wanted to make 'baby steps'. There were some in late summer, and then he told me he felt 'nothing' for me in September, so what was the point. That's when he said maybe we should go to dinner, but that hasn't happened. It's hard for me to understand how this man can be happy all alone, with no one close to him-- but I know we're all different. I just feel awful about all of this. We haven't had a deep conversation since the end of September.

I feel I'm begging him to love me, and that is something I don't want to have to do to get someone to want to be with me.

Redhat, it's reassuring to know that divorcecare says reconciliation is possible until remarriage of the spouse. Thanks for that, it's a good point!

You're right, too. I must give this my best so I don't look back with regrets. I am willing to do that, even though at times it is very hard. I am very lonely for my exH's company, and it's sad that he doesn't feel the same at all.


Solon,
Thanks for your post. I appreciate your caring!


Just J,
I haven't kissed my exH in almost five years. Last time I asked him for a hug was in September, after our son's surgery. HE told me, 'No'.

Boys like kisses, yes, and so do girls. But I'm afraid my exH would push me away, and I don't feel it's right of me to even try. I've never been the aggressor in a relationship and I don't want to start now. It's not me. He's completely walled off to his feelings, as I see it.

Lisa,
It's good to hear from you too! Thanks for the wise words. I've always loved that saying that life isn't a dress rehearsal.

I suppose I could bring up Christmas plans, it certainly wouldn't hurt to try. I again feel it will be another 'no'. Another slap in the face to me.

You're right, I need to give one more push. Then after that and some more time passing, another push. I just can't give up on this yet. Yes, I need to bring up the baby steps conversation.

I don't have any interest in dating at all. My children and my job are enough. The other night at a Christmas dinner a fellow female employee joked about setting me up with someone. I said, "I can't date anyone, I'm still in love with my exH". Sorry, but that's how I see it.

So you and the Yank split? Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it and got your toes wet, as you said!

Thanks for the worry over me, but I'm fine really. I just have to give this whole thing time.
I don't plan on waiting forever. The divorce was final 16 months ago. I need to wait a while longer, and then I will be open to someone else. I just have to give this my best shot. I have enough to do now to focus on my children, my job, and my other responsibilities.

I am continuing on my healthy quest to regain the physical fit state I was once in for years. It feels good, I've shed a good bit of weight already. Losing weight and taking control of my bad habits has helped me a lot emotionally.

Instead of losing weight with separation, I'd gained a lot! Not good for me at all.

Thanks again Lisa for your caring.

Still SEeking,
Thanks for your nice words. You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I keep thinking there has got to be a way to get to him. I think you should follow your heart, becasue I see absolutly no reason not to. I keep wondering what he would say if you asked him point blank if you still have a chance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I plan on doing this sometime soon. If he says 'no' due to a bad day, then I have my answer. If he's that wishy washy, forget it.

You are right, God does reward persistence. I just feel He maybe also points out consequences to sin. I have endured many consequences for my sin. My problem in faith right now is that while some WSs are forgiven overnight, others, like me, are punished forever in losing their family as it was. It makes me struggle with my faith at times. Some cheat over and over, and the BS is crawling at their feet to get them to come back. Others, like me, repent and know they made a huge mistake-- and the BS is repulsed by their every word. Is this God's will? Why wouldn't the good Lord want my marriage to be restored? I don't get it.

Sorry to go off on a tangent like that, but I'm sick with that nasty virus and perhaps on the brink of delirium.

I thank you for your replies. Take care, and again your words all give me strength.

God bless,
HP

Christmas plans.... if I had my druthers, here are things that I would include in your Christmas plans.

- A really fun Christmas eve. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as it involves all of you as a family. My family always plays games Christmas Eve, Scrabble and such, in front of the fireplace.
- A tasty, simple Christmas Eve meal. With a bottle of red wine for you and your ex.
- You and your ex sleeping in the same house (because you're going to do things on Christmas Day and this is easier)
- The two of you playing Santa together after the kids are asleep, laughing and joking with each other.
- Both of you heading off to sleep.
- You showing up a few minutes later, wearing whatever is comfortable to sleep in, and crawling into bed with him.

And after that, I will not say, except that I think that curling up next to a warm person who you love is one of the very best ways to spend time. (And if you've got enough of that wine in you, you might actually do it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

generally this kind of behaviour (your h, with respect to you) is because he is involved to some extent with ow. You said he wasn't, can you know that with absolute certainty? If so, it is generally very difficult to make emotional decisions...such as do I try with estranged wife, and give up new relationship.....or continue to see where new relationship goes and just have a civil, co-parent relationship. If your H is generally ethical, private, and considerate...he would keep this other relationship completely seperate, discreet, and you unaware.

Maybe you said elsewhere, are you an H celibate (no SF, or seductive attempts)...this would also indicate he is of two minds and faithful to ow, if your H is not the cake-eater type.

Hello H_P,
It is good to hear from you - though it makes me sad to know you are ill. That, along with ex H failing to reaspond. I kinda agree with JL, it would be nice to visit in person and give him a good shakeing up. However that is probably not the best way to do this. Many men resent that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You are right, God does reward persistence. I just feel He maybe also points out consequences to sin. I have endured many consequences for my sin. My problem in faith right now is that while some WSs are forgiven overnight, others, like me, are punished forever in losing their family as it was. It makes me struggle with my faith at times.
I just about brought this up to you once, but felt like it would be a mistake. In thinking about it, I believed you already knew it. Remember that people have free will. I am sure God shed tears for you as he watched what happened. I am sure he tried to get your attention. You may be able to look back and see it, but then you did not respond. I believe he is doing that now with your H - trying to soften his heart. Some hearts won't be softened, we do have free will and we can resist all the way to ruin if we want to.

Now, I am NOT saying this to bring more guilt to you. I am not your judge, but I believe you have done all in your power to make things right since you realized what the truth was.

Remember that H has free will, just as you did. It cannot be taken away from him any more than it was from you. We know in our hearts what the right thing is, but we get to choose.

Some cheat over and over, and the BS is crawling at their feet to get them to come back. Others, like me, repent and know they made a huge mistake-- and the BS is repulsed by their every word. Is this God's will? Why wouldn't the good Lord want my marriage to be restored? I don't get it.

I believe the good Lord does want your marriage restored, I believe that with all my heart, and so do you, but exH still has a choice.

I don't know how well versed you are in scripture, but the old testament is full of the stories of choices. It has many lessons for me, and one of them is that faithfulness never goes unrewarded. Please know that if you continue to do your best, God will grant you happiness. He won't force ex H to reconcile if ex H doesn't want to, but the law of the harvest will apply - it always does. We sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind for sin, and we are granted blessings for faithfulness. Please be patient - your blessings will come if you continue faithful.

Sorry to go off on a tangent like that, but I'm sick with that nasty virus and perhaps on the brink of delirium.

One of the nice thinga about MB is that people love us and want to help us. I can't see a tangent, I see valid concerns related by a sincre and loving person that needs strength to continue. Perhaps right now all God can give is strength to continue, but I believe you will get help.

I can tell you that God is still there. I get help every day, and I am not worth more in his sight than you are. I don't know how your case will end, but your happiness does not depend on what ex H does now. It depends on what you do. The past is behind you, the future not clear, but you have today, this week, and this month. Do all that you can do, and and let the rest go, and you will find your happiness, I promise you that. That's the way it works, and I know it from personal experinace. Remember that we - all of us live life just as you do. I have not lived your own particular version of hell, but I have lived my own - and I sought help and help was given. It seldom seems to come right when I expect it, or in the exact ways I want, but it comes. Look into your heart, and examine your feelings. Haven't you been given peace when you needed peace? Don't you feel the love of a parent that seeks your happiness? Can't you feel it when you think about God and pray to him? If you have, then trust that he is looking after you, and will bless you with what you need in his own good time. Trust that the sacrifices you lay upon the alter will be accepted and your life blessed in the ways you need most, even if it is not what you hope for right now.

Please don't doubt, your faith is not in vain. If you want resurance, ask God point blank. Do you love me? Will you help me? I believe your answer will come the same as mine has always come, and that is a resounding YES!

We care about you because you are worth caring about. I hope you realize that, for it is the truth.

Especially now, look for the good around you. Enjoy the sweet, let the bitter go for a few weeks. With all the bad around us, there is good also - hold on to the good and let it rule your thoughts for now.

You are a busy person, I should let you go. Thanks for listening, see you later. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

hi sulfy. I do enjoy reading your responses, used to post to hopeful she is a great lady if one can tell by her postings. you said that if her husband is ethical and considerate he will keep his involvement with another woman discreet? this is dimetrically opposite from your earlier posting with promoted honesty at all costs. if her hus. is ethical and considerate he would let hopeful know the circumstance and not keep her hanging on. he knows how she feels now and to mislead her would be inconsiderate, unethical. spock would tell you that this thinking is illogical.
I believe hopefuls ex. is a stolic person and very much into himself. this would suggests another approach for hopeful. one other thing you engaged someone is the old nature vs nuture debate. you are right on its mostly nature. your adversary mentioned your or their lack of degrees to support the posistions? I have those. needed the thesis to get to piled high and deep level. and not all together certain of their value. the problem with accepting the idea that we may not have free reign over our behavior pulls the religious rug from under many people, who lack the faith to accept the reality of this cruel world.
Sad that so many depend upon a loose collection of superstitious ideas, most of which they have been taught with little thought of their own being present in their lives. someone says they are sure God must cry, God must want this , or that. its arrogant to imagine we know God's thinking. there is a big word for that its called anthropomorphic, assigning men's behavior to that of God.
Hopeful don't be disappointed in God. with the suffering present in this old world Im sure God has much to attend to. The evidence suggests that God lets life happen. to think otherwise is an insult to those whose lives are tradgic indeed.
Hopeful I once mentioned that if you keep doing the things you are doing, then you will keep getting the things you have been getting. You have been faithful in continueing to keep doing the same things. I mentioned you need drama in your life to attract ex. you poo pooed the idea. In view of the fact that you are still nowhere as regards to connecting with ex what do you think know? Also, I mentioned that from now on its all about him should you still want him. by that I mean you must work on understanding him. you have improved yourself enough to be a great wife. but that not what is going to bring him back. your writing about him suggests he is somewhat passive. also, a bit of a loner? so what is it that he might want? how do you find out. does he need to confront his fears, you have yet to confront your own fears. I do understand that by the by.
speaking of spock. I think the enterprise is about to disembark. captain Kirk said if he caught me on the comp. again he would pull my space pass. so I must get off for now. I do have some ideas for you , but they would not be for the faint heart. the universe and beyond. God bless hopeful

Thanks for your replies. I have such interesting news that I'm going to post a new thread. More there...

Just J,
Thanks for the nice ideas. They are lovely, and would be great if they can happen.

Suf,
My exH doesn't have an OW, or any woman. I was the cheater. Thanks though for replying.

Still Seeking,
Your reply was so full of wisdom and great spiritual food for me. Just as you were writing it, I was talking to exH. I spoke of that conversation on the other thread. I can truly give thanks to God this evening for strengthening me and giving me hope!

Checkers,
Great to hear from you too. Please check out what happened today. Thanks for always being helpful, Checkers, in your interesting way! Hope you're still enjoying the Reggae stuff.

God bless, HP

<small>[ December 14, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

checkers, you misunderstood my post. I was suggesting a possibility based on hopefuls representation of her H....in other words I was getting into his head for her benefit. She states she doesn't think so, she is in the best position to know, but people can be very very discreet when they want to be, and her H fits the profile to a tee...and his behaviour supports that possibility...he would not be the first to shock people who think they know someone. You are correct, I do think people should tell....no change in that position <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hopeful, I realize you were the ws, IMO that is irrelevant anymore re your H behaviour toward you.... I was just looking at his current pattern behaviour (of course, using only what you provided). Do you know what he is doing 24/7 with absolute certainty....if not, you could be mistaken. What messes people up is when they think they know things (assume), but have no actual proof of what they think they know. It is your call of course, but I think I would hire a PI to be certain. It is absolutely amazing how often investigators turn up things that flabbergast people.

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Suf, Thanks for clarifying for me. Please read my other post when you have time regarding my progress today with exH.

I asked him again today if there was anyone else, even an internet 'friend', he said, "No, there would be complexities.." Interesting but he said no and I take it as an honest answer.

I do see though why you might think it. I'll keep an open mind about your suggestion. I have asked him before today, and it's always the same 'no'. We're divorced, I don't see why he wouldn't tell me if he were involved. (Unless he wanted all options open, but he's not that type. He's only dated me, been with me before we were married.)

HP

I didn't realize you were divorced (thought seperated). One would think, yeah, why not tell, no foul etc. But interestingly enough such men (or women) still would not tell. Is your H an excessively private person in general? If so, that would fit as well. Nor does it have to be a full blown relationship, it could just be someone he talks too, sees occassionally, or is pursuing him, but he doesn't "encourage".....something is going on with him hopeful, his behaviour is odd (or consistent with wanting to keep his options open with you...and NOT encourage you to date). Whether it is ow or not, who knows, but something is not right. If it is nothing more than an inability to move past your affair, then he has serious psychological issues you would do well to be very careful about. Anyone who cannot move beyond a rejection 4 years ago has issues with resentment and such...not good for relationships. You may have been the ws, but you seem to have processed and understood what happened, I doubt you would make such a choice again, an affair is just a thing, one of many things that happen in life...but it has a statute of limitations, and yours is long gone...it is not to your H credit that he doesn't realize that. I would suggest that whatever does happen between you that you no longer wear the scarlet A, or grant any more consideration. You have paid your price, and are worthy or not...you don't owe anyone anything...the playing field is level, act accordingly.

A couple other things...he can define an ow as anything he wants to himself...and therefore answer "no". ...his response there would be complexities suggests he has already been in such a position in order to make such an assessment.

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Thanks Suf. I won't wear the scarlet A, you're right.

The D was final 16 months ago. I ended A 17 months ago, and exH moved out three years ago! The A lasted just about four years, two of it after separation more or less.

ExH is very private. I don't think he's involved, just the same. He told me today he's scared. (see other post) I've known him 30 years, married 21. I'm going in this with my eyes wide open. I know what he's about. I Love him..he's a good man.

I did ask him today who he shared 'stuff' with , as we're apart now for a long time.He said 'No one." I believe it. I think I was one of the few he ever did, except a few very close male friends that have moved off to other states now. (childhood friends practically)

Thanks Suf for the post, etc.
HP

check... there is a big word for that its called anthropomorphic, assigning men's behavior to that of God.

sufdb...Yes. I have used that word many times, cause it is what we do so often, assign human motivations, and traits to God. He did say we are made in His image...however it is basic logic that a being capable of createing a universe is going to be incomprehensible to His creations...still we need to try and understand His will for us, so is confusing.

Good luck hopeful. I have no specific advice re your H (don't know him well enough)...but in general I prefer the direct approach...Tell him flat out you want to reconcille, layout the plan (what has to happen a la MB for the most part)...give him a month to think about it....and if he doesn't take you up on it...start fraternizing with the opposite sex, and don't discuss that with him at all. If he wants you he needs to step to the plate and start pursuing you like a man....If he won't, you have a life to live... for you and your childrens benefit (they benefit when they have a fully actualized mom). Time waits for no one....man or woman.

btw we are all afraid, is nothing special (who wants to be rejected), if you live by fear...you lose anyways, so might as well jump in the water. His fear is his problem not yours. You have dealt with the affair with him (and I assume are willing to be subject to the rules of protection as applies to a ws), other than that he is on his own, you are not his momma, he will just have to take his chances or not. Fear and victimhood and all that stuff is just another control strategy, not worthy of being acknowledged. He has his chance, you are ready willing and able....if he wants this woman (you) he needs to step to the plate and pursue the woman.

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>