Hello, this is my first post, but I have read some of Dr. Harley's materials and believe this to be an effective means of making strong marriages. My wife and I are looking forward to going to our first "strong marriage" seminar here in Utah this Friday.

Although I have not been unfaithful to my wife of seven years, I have done a few things to arouse suspicion and engender mistrust. For example, a couple of months ago she caught me chatting on the internet with a woman from New Jersey. Yes, I was flirting and yes, I said in jest that we should get together when I come to NYC in October. Although such a meeting would have been extremely unlikely ... I was idiot enough to flirt online, and my wife, who is much smarter than I, caught it all on the keystroke logging program she has installed on my computer. I truly regret my foolish behavior, but now I've got a problem. My son makes his Broadway debut this Saturday and, if I can get Lion King tickets, I'm definitely going ... my wife has decided she's definitely not going. As you can imagine, there is no enthusiastic mutual agreement on this issue. However, as much as I agree in principle with the "enthusiastic agreement" principle, I think it can be taken too far. This is my beloved son. I AM going to NYC this weekend. My question is this: how can I convince my wife (who does not wish to join me) that my behavior will be blameless? Please answer as soon as possible, because I've got great air fares which I need to lock in as soon as possible. Many thanks for listening.

Welcome to MB. I hope you get as much help here as I have. I came here almost two years ago looking for help and I found it. My W and I have passion back in our marriage now, better than even our honeymoon.

You ask how to convince her to trust you. Perhaps an even more important question is how to convince you that your marriage is more important than seeing your son on broadway. Please don't take offense to my opening. Remember that I have been here for about two years. I got to learn this the hard way just like you are learning it. I got to practice this stuff over and over, making mistakes and then fixing them.

I truly regret my foolish behavior, but now I've got a problem.

You regret your behavior - I believe you. It's your wife you have to convice of that. She is waiting to see how important she is. She wants to know if she comes first. She will begin to trust you again if you stay home. If you go, she will wonder about the real reason. There are some things you can try, but there is no way you can know if they will work. You can tell her that she comes first and if it takes staying home you will stay. Then explain how much this means to you and ask her to find a way to make it work for both of you. Having her go would be easiest, but I am sure you already covered that and it wouldn't work.

My son makes his Broadway debut this Saturday and, if I can get Lion King tickets, I'm definitely going
I am sure that normally she would not have a problem with this, except that by your prior actions, you caused a problem THIS TIME. When you do something wrong, you do what it takes to fix it. This time it might have to be staying home. Are you willing to do whatever it takes to fix this mistake? Or only if the cost is something you are willing to pay?

Remember she sees this differently than you see it. She sees "He screwed up big time, lets see if he is serious about fixing it."

... my wife has decided she's definitely not going.
I wonder if she is doing this just to test you and see how sorry you really are.


As you can imagine, there is no enthusiastic mutual agreement on this issue. However, as much as I agree in principle with the "enthusiastic agreement" principle, I think it can be taken too far.
It can be taken too far if someone wants to break the law - and I can think of other things when someone is out to get the other, but I don't think she is out to get you. I think she just wants to see how important she really is to you.

If you can't live the POJA, you are saying that what you want to do, is more important than how she feels. Not just saying it, you are showing it by example.

This is my beloved son. I AM going to NYC this weekend. My question is this: how can I convince my wife (who does not wish to join me) that my behavior will be blameless?

I hope I have not made you angry. I am trying to give you in a few paragraphs what I learned by hard lessons over years of time. I don't know if I can do it, I am just another guy that comes here to get help, and talk a little to others looking for the same.

It's kind of like O'Henry's story "The gift of the Magi." If you stay, you convince HER and she is happy, but staying takes away the reason you wanted to convince in the first place.

Could you find a reason to be happy about staying? Does she mean that much to you that you could make that sacrifice and be happy about it? Would restoring trust for her do that for you? Would it give you joy, make things worth while?

Please answer as soon as possible, because I've got great air fares which I need to lock in as soon as possible. Many thanks for listening.

Again, I hope you realize that I really want to help. I am not trying to be funny, or make you feel bad. The way you restore trust is by being trustworthy. Once gone, it takes a long time to get it back, and right now you don't have a long time.

I really believe the best thing you can do is to realize that sometimes when we make mistakes there are consenquences. Right now, I believe that if you want to fix yours, it will cost something. The cost will be high. How much are yo willing to pay?

I tried to hurry as requested, so no proof read. Sorry if there are errors.

SS

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

still seeking, I appreciate your advice very much. I will read your post a couple more times. I agree with most of what you said. Damn, I wish she'd just come with me. Since making the post, I have heard from my client who has moved heaven and earth to get me a ticket. Now I'm faced with insulting a colleague and missing my son's debut if I don't go.

Read after me - I am faced with insulting a client and missing my son's debut. That may not be all you are faced with - you may be faced with losing your marriage.

Could you STAY WITH your son, and be with him enough that it's obvious you didn't spend time with anyone else? Or with friends? If you can be fully accountable for your time -- would that help?

wow, some of you people are just obnoxious ... but Martin, that's a terrific suggestion ... I could perhaps stay with him in his room ... when the wife returns this evening I'll run this past her.

OK, well, we've talked about it, and it doesn't look like she's gonna let me go -- even if I were to stay with my son. Kinda heartbreaking. I'm going with you guys and with my wife this time ... but I have a mother and brother and son in NYC (my wife despises NYC which I understand, hehe) and it would be foolish for anyone to imagine that I'll stay away from there indefinitely.

OK, I'll try one more time: if your W hates NYC, can you stay OUTSIDE the city, way outside, and just drive in for the show?

Failing that, get a video of the show?

Haha, Martin, interesting idea, I appreciate your response. Theoretically, wouldn't that scenario present at least as many opportunities for infidelity? Unfortunately, that good-news call I got from my son yesterday has turned into what so far is sad news here. My agreement not to go to New York -- a decision based solely on the fact that she encouraged me to post my dilemma on this message board, which I did and then decided to follow the advice in the responses -- has not produced the desired result. I had hoped to get a response of "oh thank you for this decision, that's a big deposit in my love-bank" or perhaps "because you have made this decision, I am now in enthusiastic agreement that you should go after all." Rather, although she wouldn't admit this, I can tell that she's feeling bad (feels like guilt, but I'm not sure that's the right word) that she's in a position to monitor my behavior or prevent me from doing things that are deeply important to me as a father. She despises the very role of marital detective (all wives are private eyes, though, aren't they?), it makes her feel bad and of course it's all my fault. It's so convenient to be married -- there's always someone near at hand to blame for one's own troubles! I wish she'd taken my advice of two months ago; namely, that we just begin telephone counseling with Dr. Harley. But my advice is rarely of any interest to her.

Beall-
As this whole little story gets longer, more issues seem to appear.

Why not say to her, I'll stay home this weekend if you promise to do phone counseling with me?

It's beginning to look like you two need it.

And maybe we could help if we knew more facts,

Does she have any kids?
Do you have kids with her?
What was the breakup with your son's mother like?
What else would make her feel that she needs to install the key stroke monitor on your computer?


DB

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: dazed blonde ]</small>

Hi Blonde, Thanks for writing. And I appreciate your suggestion. I am deciding to forego NYC this weekend, unconditionally. I have decided to do this expressly because of responses I've read on this forum. And anyway, she doesn't do what she calls "deals," so it would be absurd to her if I proposed such the trade-off you suggest. Perhaps marriage is supposed to include a series of negotiations and compromises, honey, but not in this one!

But let me answer your questions.
1. I have 2 sons with her, 3 sons not by her. She has no other children.
2. The breakup with Andy's mother (my NYC son)? We didn't even go through lawyers. We sat down at the kitchen table one fine afternoon and mutually drew up a written agreement. To make a long story short, from the perspective of 15 years later, the divorce was most definitely a decision that benefitted both parties. Our children are now 23 and 25, and although we're not friends, we would both agree that we did a pretty good job of cooperating in raising the children in a civil and professional manner.
3. Nothing else -- just that on two occasions I have engaged in online flirtations. She is much smarter than I, and after the most recent occasion I told her, "I surrender. I'm just not going to try to outsmart you again."

Beall -- I meant BOTH of you stay way outside the city!

I know that I, too, really resented the role of monitor and spy -- it was degrading. The fact that I wouldn't police my H's computer gave him space to reignite his affair during our "recovery." So I understand your wife's feelings entirely.

Can you get her to post on this board and we can talk to her?

Good Morning,

Since I am in the same time zone as you are, and even in the same state, I am sure it is morning for you too as I write this. (I don't know when you will read it, but I needed an opening.)

From what you write since your first post, it is easy to see that there is a lot more going on with your marriage than what I first understood. When I found MB in January of 2002 I was very excited. I ordered "His needs, Her needs", and "Love Busters" and also printed out - probably more than 100 pages from this web site to read until I got the books. I took it home and showed it to my W. I was ecstatic, because I figured it was something that would really help. She told me she didn't think it was of any use, and that was that. I began the work on my own. I am sure she thought it was going to last a month or two and then fizzle.

I don't know what all your issues are, but I can see they exist.

We can have good cycles, or bad cycles. Upward spirals, or downward ones. It looks like you are in a downward spiral. The slope may be gentle, the journey slow, but that's where I see you. I believe you ought to call for counseling on your own. One person CAN effect a change.

From the sarcasm in your post (not sure if you intended it, but I believe I see some) it looks like things are a little worse for you than they were for us. We lived in different worlds kind of, and no longer made big withdrawals from each others $LB's but we didn't really make deposits either. I suppose you may say that our marriage was in limbo. I didn't like where we were, but had no idea what to do, until I found MB.

I began to try and meet her needs. She consented to fill out the questionnaire but never got around to it at first. I had to guess what to do. I did stop love busters, which was probably what kept her from feeling love and passion for me more than anything else. Sometime in - probably April, she could see that some good was coming from what I was doing and she filled out the paperwork for me. Fast foreword to August 2002. We took a trip to visit a friend in Idaho (who has MS and I wanted to see him while he can still walk) - we had a long and deep discussion about our marriage. My W told me she still had little or no feelings, she was thankful for my changes, but she was happy with the status quo, and couldn't see ever wanting things to be any different. I was in shock. 8 months of hard work, and no change.

We came home, I thought about things. There was no reason to be bitter, or to change my plan yet, so I continued.

Now, go to January of 2003. My W says "I need to talk to you." My heart skips a beat, I wonder what's up. She says: "I didn't think this would work, but I admit my feelings for you are coming back. I thought you were wasting your time, that it was mostly for show, but I am in love again, and I like it. Thank you for this great gift, thank you for bringing us back together."

Now, it's November of 2003. We are in love, and it shows. People comment on it - they ask us if we just got married. ( no, and in March of 04 it will be 27 years for us.) My wife's female friends ask her what's going on between us, want to know how to do it themselves.

I can see you are looking for what I was looking for. I believe you can do what I did. There is no magic, just a lot of hard work. I don't believe hard work scares you, but I do believe you need faith that this will work. I know it CAN work, because it did for me. You have to try it to know if it will work for you.

Someone has to break the cycle, and it sounds like that's you. I really do recommend you call for counseling. We did not, but some of my good friends here on MB did, and have great praise for the help they received. I think it would be good for you to get the jumpstart on your plan, and feedback as you go along that counseling would give you.


Let me share some before and after stories.

Before, she wouldn't kiss me, but would turn away most of the time. Now she hunts me down to kiss me, says she loves it.

Before we spent our time alone in separate hobbies. Now we love to be together, and can't wait for our weekly dates. We have committed to do twice yearly get-a-ways by ourselves and the anticipation is wonderful, but never as good as the trip itself. We have a fantastic time.

There is more, but I think that is enough for now. I do recommend you get the books, because it makes it so much more clear how to begin when you have it all laid out in a logical fashion. I do caution you that it takes time, and there are setbacks. Your plan needs to be long term.

Remember the feelings you had when you married. There was a reason for those feelings, and there is a reason they are lost to you now. I can tell you that excitement, passion, and joy can return to your relationship.

Later Edit:
I just read through this again, and I want to be clear that we still have bad days. This is not a fairy tale marriage, it's one where we are working on helping each other stay in love. Somedays we still hurt each others feelings, however we can cope with those bad days now and we quickly get over them. Things are better because we make them so, not because we live in dreamland. I wanted to make that part clear.

I wish you success in your journey.

SS

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Don't mean to thwack you too hard here, but this is really pushing my buttons.

You are blaming her for YOUR decision not to go. Is this common in your M? You see her as the person that prevents you from doing what you want? Pretty convenient to have a live-in scapegoat. You are making the choice to go or not to go because of the consequences and what you are willing to live with. These are consequences that were brought on by you. You have brought this mistrust into the equation.

I get the funny feeling you are downplaying the chatting. It IS infidelity. And joking or not, if not found out it probably would have led to meeting. You crossed a line when you "flirted". It was not innocent, it was playing with the possibility of cheating. have you done this before? What is the history?

Have you talked with your wife about NYC and whether it's going to be offf limits the rest of your lives? Or what instances you will be visiting there.

Ask a dieting diabetic to pick up a pound of candy at the store?
Ask a pedophile to watch your kids?
Send a rehabbed drug addict home to live in her old neighborhood?

She's asking you not to go to the temptation. Do you know her address? Phone number? Name or any other information to look her up? I'll bet you do.

This is a crossroad for you...choose wisely.

Perhaps you can tell her that
1) your marriage is most important and that you will stay home if she REALLY needs you to, but
2) ask if she would feel comfortable if you took someone else (same sex) with you? Maybe then she could relax. I could trust my H to do that, I think.

Oh, Martin, you're a girl, hehe, thought you were a guy. Both stay outside the city? Now I'm really confused. Both of whom? My wife's not coming to NYC ...

Still Seeking, I was delighted to read about the turnaround in your marriage. Good for you ... and good for her.

Yes indeed, I'm not adverse to hard work. God knows, getting married (in Moscow) and getting her over here was very hard work. But ... philosophically ... the whole idea that marriage has to be work ... is just kinda sad. In most cases it seems like play play play before marrige and work work work after marriage (esp. after children). It's unfortunate that it has to be that way. "To work at love" just seems like such an oxymoron. Most would agree that marriage is a tough gig.

Many thanks for taking the time to share your exciting story.

Still Here, I don't mean to thwack YOU too hard, but you don't know what you're talking about.

However, I will respond to this question: "Have you talked with your wife about NYC and whether it's going to be offf limits the rest of your lives? Or what instances you will be visiting there."

Still -- yes, we have talked about it and talked about it and talked about it. No resolution yet, but ... my son ... my brother ... my mother live there. The latter informed us last month that she's no longer able physically to travel to Utah ... So, make no mistake about it, I will have to return to NYC sometime ... I am trying to be optimistic and hope that time + love bank deposits will equal trust and her blessing for me to go visit my people. Is my wife more important to me than my mother or my brother or my children? You bet! Am I more important to her than our children? Hardly. (between the lines: I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being truthful.)

Thanks for taking the time to post, Still Here, but everything else you said was wrong wrong wrong.

"Perhaps you can tell her that
1) your marriage is most important and that you will stay home if she REALLY needs you to, but
2) ask if she would feel comfortable if you took someone else (same sex) with you? Maybe then she could relax. I could trust my H to do that, I think. "

I love a short and sweet post (above), Worth, and it was much appreciated.

I basically have made (1) clear to her.

As for suggestion No. 2, guess who I suggested accompany me for her peace of mind? Her brother, who lives in Ohio, and I'd pay his way! And we'd have a good time, too! But she was not interested.