I've been married for almost 8 years and the last few years have lacked romantic love almost entirely. We've made efforts at this but it hasn't met with much success, and we're both very very busy with work obligations.

I met an attractive person, both personally and physically, who seemed to share reciprocal feelings of admiration. We developed a friendship quickly with brief casual conversation over a week and then two days of talking for 8 hours or more. Feelings of the initial stages of falling love ensued, and the next day we spent a few hours together in a park, in each other's arms, with a few kisses. Nothing sexual, just the intimacy of holding, closeness, kisses. Just thinking of her makes my heart flutter, and the warm fuzzy feelings are very powerful. When we're together I find myself having trouble breathing almost.

Two days after this intimate encounter, my wife and I started discussing our lack of romantic love. She doesn't feel romantically "in love" with me but insists, very passionately, that she does love me and overall she wants to do whatever it takes for us to renew what we once had, to get that spark back.

I, on the other hand, honestly feel empty inside towards her and even aside from the emotional affair (which may have been a wake-up call), I sincerely think this is how I have felt for some time. I have no desire to be intimate with her, to hold her hand, to even sit on the same couch, nor to make love. I felt no remorse/guilt before, during, and perhaps even now with regard to the emotional affair.

However, I am devastated at the thought of us splitting up, of the possibility that it is over. When I dig deep my heart screams to me that I should make it work and that I ought to end the affair. But then later in the same day, I find myself feeling the opposite - that I'm just too weak to admit it's over and I can't get my mistress out of my mind. I'm torn.

To complicate things, she (mistress) insists that I can't possibly make the marriage work because of the fact that I'm falling in love with her. It's not possible to make love happen, or force love to occur. She insists that I either admit to her that what I felt for her is not genuine (but it is, I really like her), or act on it and insist to my wife that we separate. She's not unskilled in letting me know her own feelings. However, we have agreed to not see each other in person until I figure out what's going on with my wife. We only talk via computer on a more friend-like level.

Lastly, if I separate my life would be a financial disaster. I have played a supporting role as my wife went through graduate/professional education (next year she'll make good money) and I would basically be starting over if I'm to support myself. We have a tremendous amount of debt and I have very little income potential. My life would be a living hell trying to cope with this, working multiple jobs, etc.

There are no kids involved.

We married at 21 were a couple since age 18. I had no previous relationships with women prior to her. I had not experienced reciprocal feelings of love, and obviously since I've had no prior relationships I've never broken up with anyone before. Needless to say I'm an emotional wreck.

So, I'm seeking general advice of course. And, I want to know what others think about having an emotional affair and whether or not that means, definitively, that I do not or cannot love my wife again. Also, how do I tell if the intense painful feelings I have when considering the separation option are because I *really* love my wife deeply (though not romantically) or because I'm just extremely sensitive to admitting that 8years of marriage is a failure and it hurts me to see her hurt. I can't make sense of the hurt.

Our first appointment with a counselor is in a week but I'm seeking any advice, thoughts, etc. because I can't simpl avoid thinking about this until next week.

Thank you

Lex

You defined Romantic Love yourself . . .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> makes my heart flutter, and the warm fuzzy feelings are very powerful </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a very unrealistic emmotional state that ends rather quickly in a relationship. Then you move on to a mature and true love.

Stop being selfish and be true to your wife. What you are going is wrong.

I suggest reading the following . . .
Info on Romantic Love

Well lets get this party started...

welcome..and may I refer you to the other posts on this board at this time...lets see there is fighter12 and there S.H,s

lots and loads of good stuff on those posts...people who feel the same way as you do...and those who have through growth, pain and lots of self of reflection have learned that a lot of these things that you currently hold to be true....ain't necessarily so...

I'm just gonna throw some debunking your way..

1. and we're both very very busy with work obligations

so you are the people that on your death beds will say...dang I wish I had worked even more...and spent less time at home with those I love....

We've made efforts at this but it hasn't met with much success,
Well as much as it may appear an emotional and or chemical or lack there of chemistry interactions...the truth is that failure most likely lies in poor communication...
that you may have absolutely NO idea what needs she needs filled by you..
and she (your wife) most likely isn't meeting yours...
based on the fact that you two probably have never told eachother what each one needs...and so there you are both floundering and failing...thinking all this effort and energy should get you somewhere...when really it's wasted energy...then each gets frustrated, withdrawls, and then gives up...all with out communicating...

who seemed to share reciprocal feelings of admiration.

Does you wife know of your need for admiration (which is a common need) and have you taught her how to fill it...or do you sit back and expect her to just know how to fill this need.

with a few kisses. Nothing sexual, just the intimacy of holding, closeness, kisses.

Sir with all due respect kissing is sexual...and is direct violation of your vows...

We developed a friendship quickly with brief casual conversation over a week and then two days of talking for 8 hours or more. Feelings of the initial stages of falling love ensued, and the next day we spent a few hours together in a park, in each other's arms, with a few kisses. Nothing sexual, just the intimacy of holding, closeness, kisses. Just thinking of her makes my heart flutter, and the warm fuzzy feelings are very powerful. When we're together I find myself having trouble breathing almost.


See this is really the meat and potatos of the whole thing..there is no great mystery here...no great meeting of long lost soul mates...
It's two people putting all their energy, thoughts and emotions into one another...
It is ALL action...
It is all the things that you are not doing with in your marriage...

Once you withdraw all the actions from the marriage that make the marriage an action...
the vows to love
the vows to cherish....
all verbs...and loving and cherishing careers are not good recipes for a marriage...

then the marriage starts to die...
Is this marriage dead?? HUH!! not by a long shot...just neglected...

To complicate things, she (mistress) insists that I can't possibly make the marriage work because of the fact that I'm falling in love with her

It's not possible to make love happen, or force love to occur. She insists that I either admit to her that what I felt for her is not genuine (but it is, I really like her), or act on it and insist to my wife that we separate.

that's true and this love between you two did not happen you both created it....
and to be honest...there's something scary about a woman who has known you for such a short time who is telling you to seperate with your wife...

just extremely sensitive to admitting that 8years of marriage is a failure and it hurts me to see her hurt.

see you keep doing this..acting like marriage is an entity of itself that just is and exists in all this glory...
it is not 8 years of marriage...it is 8 years of YOUR marriage...IT does not fail...YOU fail it...

Without YOU and HER there is no marriage...and it is clear how you both have quit nuturing the marriage...

You need to look at your own actions and needs in your marriage.

You need to up on this site...and find the his needs her needs questionairre...
You are in a great position in the fact that your wife wants things to be better...
and the questionairre is a great start...

I do not deny that you have feelings for the OW>..but they are shallow reflections of the true depth of love that can exist within a marriage where two people commit to eachother and celebrate their marriage each day.

ARK

Hi LexR,

Well you are no doubt going to get a lot of responses but my husband has also had a very similar affair, a "deep emotional connection" as he calls it. He said he didn't have any "romantic" love for me anymore but yet says he still loves me, would die for me and would sooner live on the streets than see us(me and the kids) anyhwere but not in our home.

If I can paraphrase from Dr.Phils book that I read recently, "The myth too many people believe is that the ecstatic emotion that one feels when first falling for someone new(infatuation, phase one) is real love. It is only the first stage of love and it IS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE TO REMAIN IN THAT STAGE. Inevitably with ALL couples, that initial wild passion *transmutes into a deep and abiding commitment...".

This affair is born out of not having needs met in your relationship.It is also wrong, very wrong to think that anyhting GOOD could come of it except that it may make you and your wife realize that you need help. For my husband, he knew that it was a relationship, if you can call it that, born out of lies, dishonesty,a blatant disrespect for a woman(me) and so on.This woman is also not respectful because she has chosen also to do hurtful things to other people, namely your wife and her family and your family and herself as a human being.Can you see yourself with such a person?

As you will realize it is IMPERATIVE that you cut off ALL contact with this person if your marriage is to have a chance.The OW needs to BACK OFF and get some counseling herself since she needs to explore why she is with a married man.

I had more to say but I need to leave. I hope you do a lot of reading on this site. It is very helpful.

October

Lex you can't have your cake and eat it too. You are going to have to decide to either work on rebuilding your marriage by you and your W each filling outThe ENQ(Emotional Needs Questionaire) and the
The LBQ(Love Busters Questionaire) as well as following The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage OR divorce your W and move in with the OW. BUT if you decide to chose the latter you better ask yourself the following question: What can I expect from a woman who gets involved with a married man? A repeat performance when she becomes my wife for she obviously does not value anybody's marriage vows.

Look, is it possible that this is a wake up call that I really don't love my wife, and I haven't for awhile, and that maybe we shouldn't be together. After all, if I really loved her, even though the marriage isn't being nurtured very well, wouldn't I have refrained from the activity with the mistress?

Even after all of the comments above, yes, I see the selfishness... but I find myself wanting to still be with the mistress. Am I addicted? Or is this just the normal response of someone who doesn't love his wife so of course I'm seeking a relationship elsewhere.

I can't figure out what I want deep down, and it isn't clear to me that the answer is to try and save the marriage.

Lex

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LexR:

Look, is it possible that this is a wake up call that I really don't love my wife, and I haven't for awhile, and that maybe we shouldn't be together. After all, if I really loved her, even though the marriage isn't being nurtured very well, wouldn't I have refrained from the activity with the mistress?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The wake up call is that both you and your W had gotten lazy and stopped doing the things that made you fall in love with one another. BOTH of you are equally vulnerable to having affairs (it could be that she also is/was involved with someone else - women are catching up to men when it comes to affairs).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even after all of the comments above, yes, I see the selfishness... but I find myself wanting to still be with the mistress. Am I addicted? Or is this just the normal response of someone who doesn't love his wife so of course I'm seeking a relationship elsewhere.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affairs can happen even to people that love their spouses. There are a few WS (rachelw81, Lisa Rodney, cleogirl, otg, lost in texas, fighter12 to name a few) that never stopped loving their spouses but found themselves crossing marital boundaries thus stepping on to the slippery slope of their affairs. As Dr Harley says, almost everybody is susceptible to falling into an affair if the right circumstances are present.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't figure out what I want deep down, and it isn't clear to me that the answer is to try and save the marriage.

Lex</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are here to get our blessings for your affair, then you've come to the wrong place guy. But if you are open minded enough to read the truth about affairs from those that have been on both sides of them, then you have come to the right place.

Hi again,

What I feel to be true, regardless of the fact that I am a BS, is this: you have spent 8 years with this woman and commited to eachother and took vows and got married. I really believe that no matter what you may be feeling right now,it is important that you at least try to work on your marriage before giving in to another woman and her wants.

I think people quit marriage too easily and as Dr. Phil says, you have to EARN your way out of marriage.You also have to remember that although this relationship felt right to you at the time, the feelings you have for this OW would also follow a similar course over the years, just like it has with your wife. You end up having financial issues, child rearing issues, housekeeping issues,work issues,family issues etc.etc. Then the fantasy fades and real life is staring you in the face.

No relationship is immune to LIFE happening to you. The fantasy that you were in with this person, ignoring the outside world, always comes crashin in at some point. The difference is that you already had a wife to share in your dreams desires and life in general. Almost all of us, I would guess, at somepoint lose our way or are not "taught" the ways in which to truly make eachother happy over the years. I never even knew that I *should be working on my marriage any other way than what I thought I knew or had this website for help. It's like getting a drivers license. You should also have marriage classes that are are requirement before marriage takes place.Not a choice but a requirement.

I really don't know if I'll ever truly understand why someone would go ahead and have an affair with all the pain that is caused and the fact that most affairs end and do not lead to marriage anyway.That is something I am working out in my head because even up until the last second, my WH had a choice not to do what he did but did it anyway despite the consequences.

So, what I am trying to say is right now you are confused(caught in the fog bank) and of course you are not sure where your true feelings really lay but you do "owe" it to your wife FIRST, NOT the OW to figure that out and what is happening.Do not believe that a few days or weeks with this OW should or could replace the 8 years you have commited to with your wife.That should be the first place you start looking for answers, not with the OW and what she is trying to accomplish for HERSELF.Yes I believe you are addicted.

It is amazing how much affairs are like other addictions. People are willing to destroy everything as they know it: their marriage,their families, their friendships,their respectability,their integrity,their human decency,their roles in the community as husbands,fathers, and men, everything.All for something that doesn't last.It is the "high" that they will do it for and there is no sanity in that.

Continue to seek help from counseling,friends, family,read,read,read and PLEASE,PLEASE realize,if the OW is in the picture,she will continue to cloud your thoughts and judgments so get *professional help. Like someone who is addictied to cocaine, you cannot do it alone during the withdrawal phase and withdrawal means just that, absolutely no CONTACT so you need supports in place to keep you from contacting her. You need to let her know your intentions(letter). She will be going through the same and also needs professional help.

If in the end you have done all there is to be done and no stone has been unturned can you truthfully make the decision that the OW *may have been the right choice. But I have a feeling, you will eventually realize that she was all that she was,a symptom of what was missing in your life/marriage that could have been found if only you had tried to find for it in the right place.

October <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

nice post octobergirl...

Lex

really what do you want..

what do you want here...

Do you want people to say that it makes perfect sense to give up on your marriage during the marriage....and think it is some cosmic romantic intervention of God that this wonderful erethral woman has come in to your life to save you...
So you then give up on your marriage officially and immediately begin a new and wonderful new life...

Do you really believe that...
really
really??

You know part of the truth is that the affair stuff...that's the easy part...that gushy tingling feeling...easy as pie...because you are spending all your energy in creating it...
the primping, the thinking of clever things to talk about...the charming package you present...


The hard stuff...the actions that define who we really are....
the actions of commitment
the action of our marriage vows
through good and bad times...
the action of honesty...
the action of not engaging in direct actions that hurt others.
the action of choosing to cherish...and acting out the verb cherish...

that's the stuff of value and honor....

You think these things are hard because they don't exist...they are hard for you because you never learned how to...and it doesn't sound like your wife has either...

Or is this just the normal response of someone who doesn't love his wife so of course I'm seeking a relationship elsewhere.

where does you the person come in on this then?
are you and we all doomed and destined to not feel love so the exact action and resolution is to seek another relationship elsewhere...

Is that even logical?

Love exists when we create it....
Love is what we create...it is not just there...

You chose not to refrain from the actions with your mistress because of your obvious (to us) justifications and rationalizations...

Are you friends with your wife?
Do friends do what you are doing to their friends?

How many defintions do you have to change to meet your goal of feeling gushy?

Because when we start down the slippery slope of changing the definition of friendship, marriage, and love to meet our needs....
we are destroying ourselves and others...

The truth is that the toying with this OW's emotional being is disrepectful to her and your wife.

Your actions cause great pain to all it touches...and that my friend never has been and never will be the definition of love...

Love is the ability to nuture at all times...
not during work hours...
not only when you haven't already made plans with your wife..
Not through lies
not this shadow of love you chase...

I get it that my post sounds cheesy and perhaps even shallow....
but if you believe in wake up calls then this could also be your wake up call to learn how to act married in the full sense of the word...

And if you claim lack of experience in all of this...leaving one behind for a new teaches you only to quit when the going gets tough...

You do yourself a great disservice.
and an even greater disservice to your wife and mistress...

If you really don't know what you want...you have no business dragging innocent people down with you...

You are laying a path of great pain.

ARK

Ya know what guys? I'm starting to think the folks over at TOW are just having fun with us... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

....(in a whispering conspiratal tone)..."seminar poster......

MTD

*whippit sharing same thought as mtd*

Hmmm.

What does that mean,"Seminar poster"? Are our responses being analyzed?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hmmmm the romantic love wore off and now you have a new romance! Don't you think if the first wore off the second will too?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been married for almost 8 years and the last few years have lacked romantic love almost entirely </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I met an attractive person, both personally and physically, who seemed to share reciprocal feelings of admiration </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't you think this about your W when you first met her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and the next day we spent a few hours together in a park, in each other's arms, with a few kisses </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try taking your wife to the park. Hell grope her in when she gets a drink of water.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She doesn't feel romantically "in love" with me but insists, very passionately, that she does love me and overall she wants to do whatever it takes for us to renew what we once had, to get that spark back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe its time you learn some new tricks

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no desire to be intimate with her, to hold her hand, to even sit on the same couch, nor to make love</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, I am devastated at the thought of us splitting up </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do these go together?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lastly, if I separate my life would be a financial disaster</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So this is about $$$? Forget the finances it will be an emotional disaster

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">8years of marriage is a failure</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why? All you've said is your ready to chuck it all because you met this new honey

I know you are looking for answers but it isn't with this OW. The answers are somewhere in you and your W

Hello Lex,

I am fairly new here and do alot more monitoring than talking, but I just have to say this or explode.
Let me tell you how it feels to be the spouse of a someone who is doing what you are doing.
It feels like your heart is being ripped out of your chest inch by inch and squeezed slowly till there is not a drop of blood left in it. Your stomach hurts like there is a knife in it constantly being twisted with no regularity so you can't even adjust to the pain. Your lungs seize up and you forget to breath because it hurts so much. The pain surrounds your world, invades your dreams, your work, your sanity. All the while your SPOUSE, the ONE person in this world you should be able to trust with anything, the ONE person in this world you have given the GIFTS of your mind,body and soul to love and honor and cherish, YOUR SPOUSE is doing this to you and saying AS he is doing it "just go on with your life" or "you don't care anyway" or "it will be better this way" or worst of all "I don't know why"(while his fist drips with the blood from your soul).
THIS is BETRAYEL at the deepest level. It is not right, it will never be right and it cannot be justified in any way shape or form.
You can say all you want about how you have both failed your marriage, and that may be very true and justified. You can feel any one of a thousand emotions and justify each and everyone in anyway you know how. You can point your finger and blame everyone who is involved in this. But the fact remains, you are the one who is choosing to inflict this kind of pain. It is YOUR fist that is holding that souls heart.
You have other choices. You could choose counseling and learn a different way. You could read books that will teach you to do things differently. There are thousands of things that you can do differently. Probably only a few are needed to make huge differences in your life and the life you so callously hold in your hand.
The fact is you are making a choice to hurt someone that you swore( before God and witnesses) you would love, honor and cherish. The fact is you are choosing to fail your marriage. You are. Not anyone else. Just you. Your wife may be making choices that hurt you also, I don't know I have not heard her side of it. All I know for sure, and what I would truly like for you to understand is, whatever is happening in your marriage does NOT make right or justify the pain this inflicts. It will NEVER be alright to hurt someone this way.
Sorry to burst in this way. As you may be able to tell I feel very strongly about this. I know first hand how this hurts and would never wish this pain on anyone. I hope and pray that you never get first hand experience of how this feels. That you learn through my pain how the important the choice is that you make today, tomorrow and everday for the rest of your life.

We were, each of us, given a gift when we married. The gift of a human heart and soul. How we treat that gift is a measure of who we are and how we choose to be. If we cannot cherish the gift,at the very least,we can choose to set it aside gently and with love so it can continue to grow and can eventually be given to someone who can truly appreciate it's beauty.

Thank you to all for posting.

I have spoken with my wife and told her everything. Initially she wanted a separation and divorce, but after some time with her family and friends she's willing to try counseling and let me sleep downstairs.

I've told the OW that there's no more contact, and whereas before she seemed to accept that now this time she responded by sending me a love poem she wrote for me. Oh boy she doesn't want to give up.

I feel very confused about what love is, and if the affair means I don't love my wife (it doesn't feel that way to me, but also I can't say that I do or don't love her, either way).

Thanks again.

LexR

I wanted to comment on your post. I am currently working my way out of the "fog" from my A. I think one thing that you need to keep in mind is that you think that you love her just like I thought I loved the OM in my situation. I loved the way I felt when I was with him just like I used to love the way I felt when my H and I were dating. I've had to ask myself some really serious questions about my A. For one if we had left our spouses and got together, I know with all of my heart that I wouldn't and couldn't ever trust him. I've seen couples that have gotten together like this and from what I've seen, trust is not something that comes easy. That is perfectly understandable though, look at how they got together. That certainly isn't a good foundation to start a relationship. I know that what I did hurt my H so badly and I have to live with that but I have to say that I never could have walked away from him. What we think we deserve sometimes is pure selfishness. What gives us the right to think that somehow we can bypass what is right just to get what we want, no matter how many people we hurt in the process. I don't know about you but I could never be happy with that person knowing what it costs me and others. I'm also learning that the void that I felt that led me to this A has got to be dealt with in the right way. I'm just starting that journey and hope that you will join me.

I feel your pain more than you know!

I'm praying for you.