Sufdb....your point is unclear, my comments were solely about hurtful behaviour, it really makes no difference what the reasons for hurtful behaviour are.... if it did, everyone would have their justification, so what good would that result in....competeing hurts, my anger is better than yours...I fail to see the benefit in promoting such a viewpoint.


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Originally posted by sufdb:
[QUOTE]
L.
I don't recall all the details, but the observations are partly due to the comments by others as well (sort of a feeding frenzy of illwill to the exw)....and I don't think anything justifies vindictiveness in thought or deed...not because of any great concern for the recipient of the mistreatment, but because it is very debilitateing to the person doing it. It disturbs me alot when bs (or ws, or anyone) behave in hurtful manners, I don't beleive it is ever justified. I have been sorely mistreated throughout my ordeal, and still am, but I keep my eye on the high road...set boundaries, but still seek the high road...which includes apologizing when I let my emotional responses get the better of me. I have come to believe that strategy is the best way for individual well-being, so I promote it whenever I see a need....do you agree?

btw, if a bs is going to let the actions of a ws (or anyone) dictate their behaviour....where does personal responsibility come in? I don't think it makes sense to blame someone else for your behaviour... As for the actions of the ws in this circumstance, she is not here to defend herself, and if I have learned anything here (or in my own life) at all re relationships and perception..... bs (as well as ws) regularly misrepresent their spouse, and downplay their own contributions to disharmony. That too orchid......is human nature, perception is everything, and it varies...alot.
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or...Well Sufdb, to quote from the WS handbook, 'you can't tell me (ws) what to do.'

sufdb...That is everyones handbook, I don't know a single human being who does not feel that way. It is an interal part of MB, not to make selfish demands....ie tell your spouse (regardless of "s" status), what to do....correct?

or....The point is when a BS shows their feelings, the WS acts like the WS' rights have been trampled on.

sufdb...showing feelings is fine, I am sad, I am hurt, I am distressed, I am anxious.....dissing someone else (you are an as****le) is not ok....right?

or...Tell me S, what action on the part of the BS and family justifies all the pain of an A you see, read and experience here? Maybe then and if that only remotely, will there ever be support for a WS' A.

sufdb...None.

or...From the looks of the WS experiences (given by both sides), the WS seem to love creating chaos then placing the blame on others, even the dog. Hm.... gotta wonder if they will ever come out of the fog. WS seem to hold a higher standard on the BS then the WS holds on themselves. A bit hypocritical, doncha think?

sufdb... Fog is a chronic condition for bs and ws alike, not to mention just about every other category of human relationships, there is very little "reason" to be found anywheres, just a lot of folks who want what they want, and do whatever it takes to get it....without regard to whether it is a good thing or not. Lots of people live their entire lives in fog, heck aeri just posted about escaping 8 years of fog, a foggy committment to a totally dysfunctional marriage. Yep, ws do a lot of blaming, but in case it has escaped your notice, so do lots of bs....myself, I rarely focus on blame, is a useless notion...I promote focusing on what is actually real, and what to do about it...that includes accepting ones spouse is unsafe...and making decisions accordingly. Too often people just will not accept such things.

Btw, maybe we should take this one off to another thread since, this is really WAT's thread and it is now going to another dimension. 'eh?

This thread is kind of hard to read -- who is saying what to whom.

But sudfb, don't entirely agree with you about the fog. Yes, we all have denial, justifications, etc. But my experience about WP fog -- and I speak as someone who's been on both sides -- is that it is powered by very potent hormones and endorphins, and also powered the need to justify outrageous actions on the WP's part. That does put it on a different order of magnitude from somewhat tolerating a not-okay marriage.

AM,

The idenity of the 'other person' (not the same as OP - LOL!!) in sufdb's convo is me. He graciously took it from WAT's thread so we could have a further discussion.

Sufdb,
Thanks for creating a separate thread. To sum up the direction of this subject just goes back to the fact that the WS brings in blame as a manner to offset and manipulate the A. Plain and simple.

Does a BS ever do the same? Maybe. So do most children. But is their reason to break up the family or justify an A? I think not.

To compare a WS actions to actions of others in life seem a bit lucdicrous to me by hey, TMHO. I am glad to see that we agree there is nothing a family can do to justify an A.

Remember for each finger of blame, comes back 3xs to the one pointing. The better way is to extend an open hand of help to one's family. Some find it better to run away from responsibilities then say, it was necessary. So be it. Each one will come to their own opinion and sometimes that other opinion doesn't matter. Or it does. If the reason isn't real, it will die in time and then what?

Many a sad person is left to grow old and unwanted. Why because his family doesn't love him? Not always. In some cases, that person never knew how much his or her family loved them because that person never really knew what real loves meant.

This reminds me of a story a few years ago in our area where an elderlyman in his 70's was found as a homeless man by his sons. He had walked out on his family about 30-40 years prior without a word. His wife and children tried to locate him but to no avail. This man ended up homeless on the street and was quite ill when his sons accidently came across him. They took him in, gave him love and care until he died. I think he lived with them a few months. It wasn't long. All felt bad because of major misunderstandings. The real time as a family was shortlived but they would not have traded it for anything.

Sufdb, I used to imagine that happening to my WS when all the junk happened to us. I could envision it easily happening. It pained my heart so and continues to do so every time I read about a WS who has removed him or herself from the ones who really love them. U know what I am talking about. We have discussed this matter before. I just thought I'd share it again in hopes it would have greater meaning for you and others.

take care,
L.