To make a long story short, my wife had an EA with a co-worker over the summer (and maybe a PA). I caught on at the end of July, through cell phone records and confronted her about it. She said they were just friends, and denied its an EA or PA, but I continued to wonder.

I let her know how I felt about it, and she just said I wanted to control her, and not let her have any friends. So, I backed off. I knew something was wrong early this summer, so I guess I started what I'd call a plan A then (although I didn't find this site until about a month ago). Well, my plan A created a whole lot of tension, as she wanted to know why I was doing all of these things for her, and I think it made her feel guilty. I LB'd more than a few times over the summer, but did my best to meet her needs. Then in October, after she had spent the last 3-4 months going out and partying and spending time with this guy, I put my foot down, and said no more of this or we're getting divorced. (another big LB, but I was in miserable shape by then)

She agreed that she'd made some mistakes, (but didn't say what they were) and wanted to stay married, and reluctantly agreed to marriage counseling. We agreed to have a date once a week, and she would continue seeing and going out with her new set of friends(of which the EA partner is one). Things were getting better between us for a bit, and then things slowly started sliding back to the way they were this summer. It seems like things get better, until she goes out with the new group of friends (which is now once or twice a week). Then, its like were back to square one. She didn't admit to the EA, although I have a lot of evidence to prove thats what it was (a lot of cell phone calls, lots of time spent with him, almost what I'd call 'dates'.

Last night, she went to a hockey game with him, and they sat together. She told me she was going out with a group of friends to the game, but as it turns out, it was just him & her, and another married couple. The tickets were in pairs, so they sat together, alone for the game.

This morning, I asked her how the game was, & she said fine, & I asked her who went, and she told me. At least she's being honest & saying she went with him.

She seems to be in denial about the fact that this is an emotional affair, but sooo much happened this summer (our marriage and her committment to it nosedived) when she was spending so much time with him and this new group of friends. I want to believe her, and I've told her how I feel about this relationship, but she dismisses it. The EA that happened this summer seemed to have died down (and we made progress on our marriage), but now it seems to be heating back up again. How do I stop this EA, and do it without LB'ing?


I'm still in plan A, but this EA seems to be destroying what I have left to give. Do I stay in plan A, and in plan A, do I try to get her to stop the EA?

There's a lot more to this story, and if anyone wants to hear the whole thing, I'll post it, but for now, I want to know what to do to save my marriage from this EA starting up again.


Thanks for listening,
- Steve

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Hwkeye ]</small>

Hello,

I am sorry what you are going through but this seems ridiculous. She is acting as if she is a single woman who goes on dates with the OM and friends? Hello she is married to you. Do you really think if the roles were reversed and you were hanging out, going to events and constantly in contact by phone with another woman that she would accept this? It seems she has very little boundaries and that she only pays attention when you threaten divorce.
What a great set-up for her. She can stay married to you and accept the benefits of a marriage but also be allowed to go out with friends and her male friend that she is at the very least having an emotional affair with. The longer you allow this to continue the worse it will be. She is not acting like she is married to you. I would get the both of you into counseling and she must have absolutely no contact with him. If she refuses then I suggest contact an attorney to discuss your options. It is ridiculous that you have to accept such humiliation and disrespect from her. If she is married to you then she does not need a boyfriend. What a terrible message she is giving to you and your marriage. You deserve better than this. I wish you luck.

Thanks for the advice Bryan.
Also, giving my post a bump.

- Steve

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hwkeye:
<strong>

I'm still in plan A, but this EA seems to be destroying what I have left to give. Do I stay in plan A, and in plan A, do I try to get her to stop the EA?

There's a lot more to this story, and if anyone wants to hear the whole thing, I'll post it, but for now, I want to know what to do to save my marriage from this EA starting up again.


Thanks for listening,
- Steve </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Steve, unfortunately, you cannot stop this affair. And that is exactly what it is. She has no intention of stopping because she has no motivation to stop it. She is having her needs met by 2 men and that is ok with both. What woman in her right mind would give that up?

It sounds like you have done a pretty solid Plan A and its time to pull your spouse off the fence with a Plan B. When your spouse is sitting on the fence undecided, and thoroughly enjoying themselves, it is Plan B time.

I would suggest first calling Steve Harley if you can and getting some direction. He often has a good feel for a situation and can possibly set you on the right path. In the meantime, here is some good reading material about Plan B:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=30&t=000177

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

<small>[ December 16, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Hi HwkEye

Well your W needs to do NC, and that also means changing jobs or just quiting. NC is NC. Is the OM married, if so then its time to tell his W about whats going on.

Second set up MC with your W. She is still in the fog. A fantasy that has no reality at all. Read up on Plan B, and a plan B letter, start making plans. Plan B is to protect your love for your W.

One way around it is to go with them. Sit right between them. Kinda hard to date a MW when the spouse is sitting right there with you. Ask her about that.

Anyways, to end and A you need to expose it. That would even be at work with her supervisors. I wouldn't do this lightly, only if she refuses to end it on her own.

Read His Needs/ Her Needs and Surviving an Affair. Hopefully you can get her to read them also. She needs to do NC with the OM and write an NC Letter.

God Bless

Are you sure that you are married? Does she know that she is married? From your post it doesn't sound like it. The fact that you agreed to her demand to let her continue seeing her boyfriend must have made her wonder whether your brains were scrambled ( I don't say this out of disrespect). She now has the best of both worlds, being in a marriage and having a lover.

Steve:

Someone once quoted Steve Harley as saying something 2 the effect that: "An affair is what your spouse thinks it is." By that definition, my preoccupation with my favorite hobby before D-day was viewed as an "affair" of sorts by my W. Only it wasn't with a live person, like her A was.

The bottom line is that she's sharing intimacy with this OM that she should be sharing with her H. You.

Mel is right, though. You can't stop it. It needs 2 run its course. You don't sit by and let it happen, though. You make it as difficult for them 2 enjoy themselves as you can, by blowing it wide open 2 the OM's W, if he's married, 2 their coworkers if they work 2gether, and 2 her family if they can help. Be careful with disclosure, though. Sometimes, contacting the OP's spouse can backfire - they may toss them out, making them more likely 2 go after your W.

Plan A is about negotiating an end 2 the A. If you've done a good plan A so far, it might be time 2 try plan B. But don't do that unless you're prepared for DV, one possible outcome of plan B.

-2long

Steve

Plan B brother.

Otherwise, you may as well lay down in front of your door and paint "WELCOME" on your chest.

M.

Steve,

I've been there, man. What you are going through, I went through for almost three years and I know your frame of mind right now. You want to be the good guy and you are being accused of being controlling and trying to run her life. Because you want to be reasonable, you agree to limited contact with the OM. That's exactly what I did and on January 3rd my DV becomes final, so it certainly wasn't successful for me. My STBXW got a lot of support from friends and family over her EA simply because they did not know the whole truth. She presented it as a friendship that I was trying to interfere with. A big part of the reason she was able to do that is that I was unwilling to tell people the parts she was leaving out for fear of driving her even further away. I tried reasoning with her but she saw nothing wrong with what she was doing. She would cut back contact and then slowly slide back into the old patterns of behaviour again. By the time I found this site and learned about Plan A and Plan B, it was too late. I went to Plan B and and three weeks later, her "old friend" moved in with her. It was at that time that so many people realized the truth of what had been going on. Since then, I have the full support of all these people, but almost every one has told me that I should have told them the whole truth way back when. If I had, maybe she would not have gotten the reinforcement she needed to continue the EA. The point is that the first thing which needs to be done is your W's EA needs to be exposed COMPLETELY. Anyone who knows the complete truth will not support such a relationship.

The other thing you need is a MC who recognizes the danger of such a R to a marriage. I/We saw three different ones and some have some pretty strange views on outside R's. One even suggested that any friendship is OK no matter what happens as long as there is no sex. He said married people have the right to spend time with and even date (yes, he said "date") other people provided they did not cross the line of actually having intercourse. These are the type of people you need to avoid and keep your W away from. She needs to see that what she is doing is hurting you and any reinforcement she is getting needs to stop now. The last MC we went to see put it perfectly to my STBXW. He asked her if she had a problem with me attending strip clubs. He replied indignantly that she would never allow that because it would be extremely disrespectful of her. He then pointed out to her that many women would not have a problem with such behaviour and she replied that she was not "many women" and if I could not respect her own particular feelings enough to stay away from such places (where I have never gone BTW) then she and I would have a major problem. That's when he hit her with it. He said that she expects me to respect her own feelings but she is refusing to respect mine. At that point, I think she really got it, but it was much too late in the game to save the M.

Steve, sit your W down and explain to her that what she is doing is causing you pain and that alone makes it wrong. All people are different and what hurts one person may not bother another, but when you are in a M, you simply have to do things (or not do things) for no other reason than to respect your spouse. That may be something as simple as not leaving dirty clothes lying around. Tell her life is about choices and while she is certainly free to make the choice of whether to continue this R with the OM, that choice will force a choice upon you as well. Explain that you are not a person who can live in a M where this type of behaviour goes on and, if she continues this R, then she is showing you that you and your M are not important enough to her and that is not a M you want a part of. Then go straight to Plan B. It will probably be the most difficult thing you will ever do, but it needs to be done. Don't file for DV and tell your W that you want the M to continue, but it simply cannot continue the way it is. You have the right and even the obligation to yourself and your dignity to set your own boundaries as to what is acceptable. Wait too long and you may not be able to save the M at all.

BTW, in my case everything worked out great for me. My DV will be final on Jan 3rd and I am happy and content with my life. I have someone new in my life and I am looking forward to the future like never before. My STBXW, on the other hand, is miserable. She is pregnant with the OM's child and feels trapped in a rotten life (her words). To quote her directly "The grass is greener on the other side, TILL YOU HAVE TO CUT IT!" Maybe your W should get in contact with my STBXW so she can see where her path could lead her.

I wish you the best of luck and you will be in my prayers.

B

Moving:

I'm glad you came in here and gave your perspective. I was hoping you would.

My own (and probably just about everybody else's) was similar, in that my W and RM were friends at work. They spent a lot of time 2gether until he moved out of state several years ago. But since I didn't know about the A, only that I was relieved he was moving, I couldn't "help" my W prevent another A, which they had for a year or so, mostly via email, ending a few months ago. We're negotiating a NC agreement now (she offered!), and it's very delicate. I need NC for LIFE, but I don't know whether she'd be willing 2 go that far yet.

You definitely don't want 2 let this "arrangement" go on for long, without protesting strongly, making clear your stand for your M. If you do, you'll end up not caring 2 continue the M, if or when she "comes around." Like Moving's STBXW. Or mine, if we can't get full-up NC in the near fu2re.

-ol' 2long

This might sound strange, but I had never heard of the term "emotional affair" or "affair of the heart" until I was sitting in the MC office after learning my husband was having one. Even when I found out about all of his secret phone calls, I wasn't sure if it was an affair or not (clearly it was I now know).

Does your wife realize that an affair doesn't just mean sex? There are many couples (boyfriend/girlfriend) that don't have sex but are obviously not just friends.

From your post I get the impression that your wife is behaving very independently. To the point that it doesn't fit into the context of a marriage. A woman can be independent and still respect the boundaries of a marriage and the feelings of her husband.

My opinion is that a man and woman can't spend too much time alone together w/o at least one of them forming an attraction. I used to have male friends that I always thought were totally innocent of being interested in me. Looking back, I realize though I had no romantic interest in them, they had at least some level in me. I just couldn't/didn't want to see it at the time. It's just human nature. Is it possible that your wife is just wanting to be friends and the OM is interested in her romantically?

I also want to say, that sometimes good, smart people do really stupid things. I know my H is a good man, very intelligent, not a player, no history of infidelity, and yet he was carrying on secret phone calls with a married co-worker and truly didn't believe it would hurt our marriage. When something makes a person feel good, I guess they can convince themselves with anything. My H gets very frustrated when trying to explain what he thought during the A, b/c he says it sounds so unbelievable and stupid that he can't explain how he ever thought that way. The light of day makes things look very different.

This is not the way a married woman should behave and you are not wrong for demanding that it stop. Best of luck with a difficult situation.

2Long,

I have noticed a great number of your posts but I don't remember reading your specific story. Got a link to it somewhere? I'd like to read it considering the insight you have shown.

An update to my situation. The new lady in my life is fast becoming the love of my life even though we are still in "friend mode" until my DV is final. That happens Jan 3rd and I am counting the days. It is so hard not make the leap to intimacy with her, but it won't happen until the DV is final, then my new life begins. It's amazing how many people can't understand she and I wanting to wait until both DV's are final before we take our R to the next level, but that is what feels right. In the meantime, we are growing closer each day and I know that a life of true happiness is ahead of me.

Sorry for the mini hijack of your post, Steve.

B

Moving:

Well, I tried 2 figure out where I might have posted my whole story, but I don't think it's in just one place. Probably a few hundred places.

In a nutshell:

Me: BS, 50
FWW: 49
M'd 28 years in a week or so.
D: 24
S: 16
D-day: 1-19-02
OM ("Rat Meat"): 39
OMW ("Mrs Meat"): 38
2 boys, early teens, I think.

Basicallly, I found out by stumbling across sexually explicit emails between them. RM consulted for my W. He lives out of state, but used 2 live in the area and they went 2 grad school 2gether. 2 As. First started when they were sharing an office, about 13 years ago. I didn't find out about the first A, but Mrs Meat apparently did, making them move out of state about 6 or 7 years ago. Mostly an EA, sometimes PA. A resumed after my W hired RM 2 consult for her, about 3 years ago. They only got 2gether 2wice during the 2nd A, so again mostly an EA. My W never moved out, preferring 2 fence-sit. They did a pretty good job of keeping it a secret until I found the emails. My W believed she ended the A about 25 months ago, before I found out, and just a month after a major fire at our historic home. 2 her credit, we were getting along great between Nov-2001 and Jan-2002, I just didn't know why. Then I found the emails and it was clear 2 me that the EA was still going on. My W quit the job he was consulting for in July, started another job that had her visit his workplace in August, but we were doing so well by that time that their "reunion" wasn't rosey at all. We're working on NC right now. I've never done this before, so I still have my moments of doubt, but she's definitely very much trying 2 save our M. We're closer than ever, and I think we're going 2 make it.

Odd thing. I've only met the Meats once, about 13 years ago at a party. I wouldn't know him from Adam. Would prefer Adam, though, sight unseen. I've talked 2 RM on the phone, again several years ago, helping my W and him write a research paper. I remember him being nervous on the phone, and wondering why. Now I know.

Mrs Meat tossed him out about a year ago and started a revenge A of her own. They're either getting DVd, or they are already DVd. RM is dating again, or so I have heard once or 2wice.

There's a lot more detail out there, mostly on GQII, but it's scattered all over in my numerous threads as 2long and Qfwfq over the past almost 2 years. But that's the high points, such as they are.

-ol' 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for offering up your support and advice everyone.

To answer a few questions, the other guy is not married, but does have a girlfriend now. Actually, she's married, but just this summer separated from her husband. They'd been having an on and off affair for several years, from what I've learned. It seems he "helped" her when she was having marriage problems too. He seems to have a habit of befriending married women with marriage problems, and being the kind, sensitive guy who will listen to and understand them and their problems and "help" them (right into his bed). I don't know him very well, just through casual meetings at Christmas parties, etc.

My wife and I have had some problems, and I know my responsibility for all this, because I was not meeting her needs, and I think he stepped in and met those need. So I feel like I need to go the extra mile to show her my love and committment. I love her and I don't want a divorce. I do feel like a doormat sometimes, but I feel like it's kinda payback for the way I didn't meet her needs for several years. I've been in plan A since August, and things have improved since then, but I done several LB's, that I'm trying to overcome (disrespectful judgements mostly). I'm setting another month of plan A before I switch to plan B.
I told her last night how her relationship with him is hurting me, and she didn't say much, and went to sleep on the couch. (another LB?).

How does plan B work? Should I leave the house? We have two kids and I don't want to hurt them. But I feel like they're already being hurt by witnessing my W's disrespectful behavior.

Thanks to all,
- Steve

Hwkeye:

"He seems to have a habit of befriending married women with marriage problems, and being the kind, sensitive guy who will listen to and understand them and their problems and "help" them (right into his bed)."

There are simple terms for this kind of "man": Predator. Player.

Telling your W that her A hurts you is NOT LBing. It is being honest about how YOU FEEL.

As for her unmet needs: You may be responsible for your part of the marriage being "mediocre" or not meeting her needs, but you are in no way, shape, or form responsible for her having an A. That was a CHOICE she made entirely on her own.

You should get a copy of "Surviving An Affair" from the website. It talks about how 2 do plan B, with sample letters. There are also samples on here in various places. Others could point you 2 them better than I. Basically, it's nearly impossible 2 do plan B and stay in the same house. Probably completely impossible. You should have HER move out if you can. If you can't, you should try 2 take the kids with YOU. But it can be done even if you move out alone. You will need 2 communicate about kids-logistics and stuff through an agreeable third party. Only communicate directly about family emergencies.

In plan B, you need 2 be prepared for divorce as a possible outcome. Plan B is NOT bluffing, it's protecting your remaining love for your WW so that you can reconcile when her A ends. It's also removing you from the pain of living daily with her ongoing A.

best,
-2long

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hwkeye:
I told her last night how her relationship with him is hurting me, and she didn't say much, and went to sleep on the couch. (another LB?).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nope ... not an lb. it's an expression of your feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does plan B work? Should I leave the house? We have two kids and I don't want to hurt them. But I feel like they're already being hurt by witnessing my W's disrespectful behavior.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">read up on plan B. and, no, you should not leave the house. part of plan B is for the wayward to realize consequences for the behavior. lastly ... you are correct in knowing that your children are already being hurt. in asking your wife to leave your home you are protecting your children from your wife's behavior and only you are capable of doing it properly right now.