A recent thread by alx1970 poses a good opportunity for using the POJA. Please read his thread tv and movie rights and let's practice negotiating this issue.

If you wish to play....axl and others....let's begin by introducing the idea of negotiation to your wife. Here's some tips:

State your understanding of your wife's feelings (validation)

Use respectful, honest statements to express your feelings, using "I" sentences and not "you" sentences.

Express a desire to come up with a solution that is reasonable for both of you....instead of just one partner...creating better compatibility and less resentment.

Stress being a "team" where both partners can avoid resentfulness by making compromises. For instance...alx may be more willing to turn his head in private....but more embarrassed when others can notice.

So....Opening Statements Please!

Along the way, you'll have to assume the personality of either alx or his wife....so please read his thread thoroughly so that you can convincingly debate and discuss as you believe THEY might.

Be sure and follow the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

Have fun!

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

star-

I think this is a wonderful chance for all of us to practice POJA. I am a guy, so can I play along also? Or do get to sit in the bleachers?

STTSI,

Please please participate. It's for everyone. Taking on the different personas will help all of us get into the mind of our spouses and learn HOW to approach difficult negotiations.

Some come on ALL....How would alx approach his wife to suggest negotiating this issue? What would he say that would get her interesting in hearing his feelings and not just shut down right off the bat?

OK, star, I am not an expert at this either since W and I still have trouble. Hopefully I too will learn from this.

"W, I feel frustrated when I turn my head away from the TV. And I feel frustrated that you don't want me watching movies without you. I also feel pathetic when I turn my head away when we are with friends."

Now, I think I should stop talking here to let W validate my feelings, right? This is where I screw up and keep going by saying.

"I don't understand why our daughter can watch the TV and I have to turn away. Do you not trust me? Why?"

<small>[ December 13, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Still Trying To Save It ]</small>

I wanna play. When I read about negotiating in marriage, I got depressed. All we ever did was argue, then when he yelled enough, he did whatever he wanted. So here goes:

(I'm the wife) H- It really hurts me to see all the trash on TV. Almost every movie has parts that are sexually explicit and I would appreciate it if you would turn your head and not watch. I love you and want you to only look at me that way.

My question here...and not for the sake of debating or be contrary...but do you and should you POJA unhealthy traits?

I went through and read the whole post by alx under resloving conflict...and admittedly that it is one sided...
his wifes reactions in my opinion are extreme and should not be "fed" in to

Meaning NO disrepect...and not meaning to say she doesn't feel that way...but her feelings are causing her to be destructive to her husband and it would be better if she learned to not act on these feelings.

granted these are snippetts but here are some that send huge warning flags that she is not very rational or logical...

We had a fire drill at work and she wanted to know how many women came out of the building and what they looked like. I could not give her an honest answer because I truly did not know.

She thinks that if I admit to knowing the difference between an attractive and unattractive woman then I am checking them out.

that's not a rational thought...and should not in my opinion be validated..

how do you cherish someone by taking away their ability to find just normal non-emotional pleasure in people..and when you have your self grounded in a committed marriage...and can view others as made in Gods image...and see and appreciate beauty with in and on the outside of a person is healthy normal way to see people...

You can't get around that some people are physically attractive..to each of us...and when actions lead you down no other path than the reality that it is what it is...how cruel to attack and attempt to de-emotionalize someone...

She even made the stupid statement that her mistrust and jealousy shows how much she cares for me. OMG

It is fine for a person to decide that they have chosen not to ever watch a movie with a sex scene in it...it is not fine to apply that same action to a spouse...WHEN the spouses actions remain without blame in viewing them...

Wife is attempting the exact thing we encourage BS and others in conflict not to do..
attempting to control and change Alx...who in my opinion does not need to change this...

Complete censorship of the fact that there is "smut out there" won't work.

applying blanket statements that every sex/romantic scene is smut is not normal or healthy....
ESPECIALLY so one sided that reality show are OK for her to watch which have yet to show any moral approach to relationship

NOT NOT advocating porn by anymeans...
but if alx is being expected to turn his head from an emotional sex scene as if it is "dirty or bad" is not right....

alx has no history of infidelity
alx has not by choice but out of fear isolated himself from friend and social opportunities...
alx is afraid is wife will leave him and he will be alone...

I do not believe you POJA abusive qualities...and nor do I use the term abuse lightly ever...

human sexuality is a great gift from God and should not be made in to something wrong...

we are all sexual beings and can and should be free to express that fact while married with certain boundaries in place...

Mr. Ark is mature enough to realize that Harrison Ford as Indianna Jones is one cutie-patootie and is not threatened by that....

as I can appreciate that he thinks Renee Zelleweger is attractive...because you know what she is....

I think Alx needs to remove himself from his wife's irrational approach to this...
not feed in to it
set limits for himself and watch movies that he enjoys and not live in fear she will throw out things of his that she finds "icky"

alx if you are reading this I mean no disrepect to you or your wife..
it sounds sad and lonely where you are right now..

marriage is a partnership to be celebrated within and with the outside world...

will post more to you later.
ARK edited to change all the times I put alx to axl.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 13, 2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Ark - I agree with you, there is a lot more going on here than movies. But come on, we are in the middle of an exercise in POJA.

Boy...I really really want to play...but simply typing in something fictitional from alx that doesn't sound resentful, or judgemental, or whiney...but is instead engaging and positive...hooo-boy! POJA be hard work on this one!!!

The following is still struggling badly but it's a start...the humour is intentional as I believe humour helps break the ice into a tense subject...of course, you may still find the humour bad! but hopefully not offensive or ANNOYING...

And one other note...it's long, sort of 3 parts strung together...in real life, I wouldn't just carry on without a pause but instead would be seeking input/comments/suggestions along the way, and carefully/respectfully considering her reply or reaction before I said anything else.

"Honey...sometimes I feel humiliated like a bad kid in school and this is making me very uncomfortable lately. I feel embarrassed when I have to turn my head away from the TV as fast as I can and so that I can't possibly see the screen out of the corner of my eye...I feel kind of like a trained seal! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Arf arf arf...

I know I've done horrible things in the past that have shown you such a huge amount of disrespect. I love you and want to bend over backwards to respect your feelings and make you feel comfortable spending time around both me and the tv. So I would really like to spend some time together thinking up a solution -- something that doesn't make me feel like a bad kid being punished, but still gives you comfort and security.

What do you think would happen if every time a scene with women comes on tv, if we both turned and stared each other in the eyes for 1 minute? How about if we also said, or mouthed, that we love each other?

I would never be embarassed to look at you or tell you I love you. But would that let you know in no uncertain terms that you are the only woman I truly care about in life? That you are THE woman I want to be with? That the rest is just tv?

How about if we sit together and hold hands anytime something comes on tv that you are uncomfortable with? If I kissed your palm and whispered 'I love you' in your ear?

And if we are alone at the time, how about if we turn the tv off and do something else together instead? Something we both enjoy doing?"


Edited to add: Ark...I agree with you too which is why it was REALLY hard to do this (but what a great exercise that made it for me!). Like believer, I just jumped into it as a POJA exercise.

However, I wrongly assumed alx had been unfaithful (sorry alx) and this was driving an extreme emotional reaction from his wife. Even then -- even as a BS myself -- I found it extreme, but was trying to find a way he could address his wife respectfully, suggesting ways in which he could reassure her fear (again, assumed this fear was A-related), and hopefully work through it to create a comfortable zone for them both to watch tv together. Or add to their 15 hours of quality time per week by turning the stupid box off altogether. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have sympathy for a BS who experiences irrational fear and I expect that kind of fear will subside over time given the loving, caring support of a repenting spouse. Please read the above POJA attempt in that context (ie. the "horrible things in the past" context).

alx ...it doesn't sound like your wife's fear will subside...good luck with your real life situation, however you handle it.

<small>[ December 13, 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Okay Ark....If you follow Harley, one thing you realize right away....is that we don't get to decide what SHOULD or should NOT upset our spouses. They get to decide if something hurts them or withdraws love units. We can use that information to reach a better agreement...or we can tell them they're feelings are wrong and unreasonable. What do you think works? Dr. Harley is less interested in the "shoulds" and more interested in reality. The reality is that his wife has unrealistic expectations....how does he deal with it?

She is not happy with him seeing ANY nudity, pretty women etc. on TV. Is it reasonable....nope. POJAing doesnt decide if it's reasonable or not however....it deals with the facts. We start negotiation from the facts. She doesn't like it. He feels silly doing all she asks. How do they come to an enthusiastic agreement with the situation the way it IS?

Still,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "W, I feel frustrated when I turn my head away from the TV. And I feel frustrated that you don't want me watching movies without you. I also feel pathetic when I turn my head away when we are with friends."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay....In my opinion you made your first mistake right away LOL. First seek to understand (validate) then seek to be understood.

believer,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (I'm the wife) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The wife is not going to introduce compromise...she wants it HER way. How can he convince her to reconsider an come up with an agreement they can both live with?

awed,

I like alot of the things you have to say....but let's assume that his wife has NO IDEA what the POJA is. How does he begin....with HIS feelings? Or hers? And how does he explain why following the POJA is a good idea. You've done a good job...as some of the others....of expressing HIS feelings. But hers come first.

Good good good... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I love getting graded! Okay...here's round two...but I think I still may be missing your point...perhaps more time should be spent discussing benefits of POJA?

"Honey...I love you and want to bend over backwards to respect your feelings and make you feel comfortable spending time around both me and the tv. We both know that it's just mindless drivel, entertainment designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. And that means there's a lot of crap on there, and I know that a lot of it makes you uncomfortable. There are so many scenes of half-naked women, kissing, sex...and these are not at all compatible with our belief system.

This is the reason I've agreed to look away when women come on-screen but then I feel humiliated like a bad kid in school and this is making me very uncomfortable lately. I feel embarrassed when I have to turn my head away from the TV as fast as I can and so that I can't possibly see the screen out of the corner of my eye...I feel kind of like a trained seal! Arf arf arf...

So would you agree to spend some time talking with me about this?

Instead of just thinking about it on my own which doesn't bring us any closer together as a couple, I would love to discuss the whole issue with you and really understand deep down how you are feeling when the two of us watch tv together.

It would be terrific to spend some time together thinking of a solution that wouldn't make me feel like a bad kid being punished, but would still give you comfort and security. I bet we could have fun thinking of some possibilities, maybe even add a bit of romance!"


...then the suggestions as previously made...even if he didn't have an A, most women don't object to a bit of loving attention. Even if you aren't feeling insecure, having your H whisper in your ear that he loves you when a pretty woman in on screen is a nice ego-boost! I suspect it would be appreciated as a gesture from him that would thaw her intransigence concerning the tv watching rules.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong>Okay....In my opinion you made your first mistake right away LOL. First seek to understand (validate) then seek to be understood.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">UhOh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> See, told ya I need practice at this. Now, how can I validate when I don't understand the cause of the problem.

I could assume and say W, I know there is a ton of nudity and sexual content on television and movies today. I understand how my watching that content may think I don't love you. I do love you.

Then wait for W to acknowledge my understanding of the situation. But if W hasn't told me why she doesn't want me watching these scenes, how can I validate? I could validate her concern about these scenes and that is all.

Sorry for the big delay, W and I are removing wallpaper today. Anyone want to come and help??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

awed....yes yes....you have passed round ONE!!!

"Honey...I love you and want to bend over backwards to respect your feelings and make you feel comfortable spending time around both me and the tv.

Starts with love, and his desire to please her...yes!

We both know that it's just mindless drivel, entertainment designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. And that means there's a lot of crap on there, and I know that a lot of it makes you uncomfortable. There are so many scenes of half-naked women, kissing, sex...and these are not at all compatible with our belief system.

YES...validates her feelings!!!!

This is the reason I've agreed to look away when women come on-screen but then I feel humiliated like a bad kid in school and this is making me very uncomfortable lately. I feel embarrassed when I have to turn my head away from the TV as fast as I can and so that I can't possibly see the screen out of the corner of my eye...I feel kind of like a trained seal! Arf arf arf...

yessssssss LOL (shoot half of this stuff is just cracking me up so badly I can hardly type!)Also....I'm assuming the arf arf is tongue in cheek. Let's just say he describes how uncomfortable he is.

So would you agree to spend some time talking with me about this?

yes...introducing the POJA and negotiation.

Instead of just thinking about it on my own which doesn't bring us any closer together as a couple, I would love to discuss the whole issue with you and really understand deep down how you are feeling when the two of us watch tv together.

This paragraph is more than good...it's outstanding.

It would be terrific to spend some time together thinking of a solution that wouldn't make me feel like a bad kid being punished, but would still give you comfort and security. I bet we could have fun thinking of some possibilities, maybe even add a bit of romance!"

A little optimistic....but good.

Insert some of the feelings statements from the previous posts, explaining how difficult it is for him. ASKING for ideas about how they can both feel comfortable.


then the suggestions as previously made...even if he didn't have an A, most women don't object to a bit of loving attention. Even if you aren't feeling insecure, having your H whisper in your ear that he loves you when a pretty woman in on screen is a nice ego-boost! I suspect it would be appreciated as a gesture from him that would thaw her intransigence concerning the tv watching rules.

Too early....this is the brainstorming stage. We still need to see what her reaction is.

So here are the two NEW scenarios, please respond as the wife:

1 She doesn't want to talk and gets defensive.

2 She is willing to discuss it and it's her turn to talk....what does she say?

Still....awed did a good job of validating the wife so look at what she wrote. Validating is as much "repeating" and showing interest in her feelings as anything. You don't have to agree with her feelings to recognize that she has a right to feel them....and you care about them.

Okay....so the intro is there....let's move on with Scenario One and Two. What do you do in each case????

<small>[ December 13, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

On a side note....here is the intro I wrote:

Introduction to the POJA

Honey, I would like to talk to you about something....do you have some free time? Let's sit on the patio where we have some privacy. Here's the thing. I know how you feel about the nudity on television and in movies. I understand that you don't want me looking at, or lusting at those women. I love you very much, and I agree that it's important for you to feel comfortable and safe. I want to help you feel secure about this issue, but I have some concerns. Are you willing to listen to how the agreement we have about this is affecting how I feel?

*if she says no* He says "fine, please let me know when you are ready to talk about it. I'll remind you....because it's really important to me."

*if/when she says yes* He goes on to explain that while he knows so much of what's called entertainment is sexual and makes her uncomfortable if he watches, that he is getting some mixed messages and he is becoming increasingly embarrassed around friends. He feels humiliated when others notice. He feels confused that his child can watch these things and can't. He feels controlled and he is beginning to resent that feeling and it is affecting his love for his wife. The current agreement they have, takes her feelings into account...and that's important to him. But it doesn't take his feelings into account...and he hopes that that is important to her too....because they are a team.

He then asks if she will express her feelings, and if she is willing to brainstorm some ideas, and find a solution they can BOTH be comfortable with.

I hope others will play this game...it's a good one! Star...do you feel like posting a new POJA exercise every week???

I don't want to start the new level because I want to give others a chance to practice POJA too. But I had 2 things to add to portion #1:

1. Star -- your solution was much better. Of course this does not surprise me at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> because you've had a lot of practice and great insights. (I love your posts...they are so gentle and honest.)

But IMNVHO (never very)...your solution is better because you were far more honest than I was. I struggled so hard not to be judgmental that I think I overcompensated by being less forthright about how much it was bothering "me" (alx).

You've given such a terrific example of gently being radically honest. Rather than my beat-around-the-bush-to-get-her-to-cooperate brand of honesty.

2. I had another thought Saturday after I posted my second try. What would you think if he specifically addressed how she might be feeling deep down? Would this be judgmental? I was thinking that constantly watching someone must be very tiring. Would it be okay to make that observation? As a question so she can deny it if she wants?

I gave this whole issue a lot of thought...I do think her behaviour qualifies as abuse, as defined by the Harley articles on this site. It's up to her to hit her own bottom and recognize the problem but since he wants to stay with her at this point in time, couldn't he try to get to the root of the problem (her lack of trust in him) and her reaction to her fear (attempts to control him) in a gentle, non-judgmental way? To try and reach his wife through love rather than a negative reaction?

BTW: I showed my H the game because I thought it would make a great conversation piece for us (someone else's problems). He practically spat and hissed...oh boy...he thought bad bad things about the W controlling her H's behaviour like that! Led to an interesting discussion...albeit not the one I was expecting to have!

Here's my thought spelled out in the context of the exercise again (new stuff is in bold type):

"Honey...I love you and want to bend over backwards to respect your feelings and make you feel comfortable spending time around both me and the tv. We both know that it's just mindless drivel, entertainment designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. And that means there's a lot of crap on there, and I know that a lot of it makes you uncomfortable. There are so many scenes of half-naked women, kissing, sex...and these are not at all compatible with our belief system.

This is the reason I've agreed to look away when women come on-screen but then I feel humiliated like a bad kid in school and this is making me very uncomfortable lately. I feel embarrassed when I have to turn my head away from the TV as fast as I can and so that I can't possibly see the screen out of the corner of my eye...I feel kind of like a trained seal! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Arf arf arf...

But I was also thinking that perhaps this is a real burden on you too. After all, watching me while watching tv probably isn't terribly comfortable for you either!

I've been doing a lot of reading at a marriage-building site and they talk a lot about the importance of honest communication. About sharing your deepest thoughts, fears and feelings. And brainstorming solutions that make both spouses really comfortable with each other, enhancing intimacy through deeper communication."

...and then back to the part as written before...onto specific suggestions...etc. etc.

awed,

Remember I mentioned following Harleys rules for negotiation? I started mine the way I did...because the first and in some ways most important rule is SAFETY. None of you addressed that.

If you notice....the first thing I did was find a comfortable environment. I also allowed alx's wife to choose if this was good time. I also was willing to wait if the time was NOT good. I began by validating HER feelings.

All of that was to make her feel SAFE and comfortable to talk.....so Rule # 1 is SAFETY. Without that....everything else is moot.

This paragraph you added is a great introduction into the POJA. She needs to understand "where" this new idea of "negotiation" is coming from.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been doing a lot of reading at a marriage-building site and they talk a lot about the importance of honest communication. About sharing your deepest thoughts, fears and feelings. And brainstorming solutions that make both spouses really comfortable with each other, enhancing intimacy through deeper communication."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do hope others will participate....thank you for keeping on track. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

bumping for alx.

**brief threadjack**

clapclapclapclapclapclapclapclap for ark.

clapclapclapclapclapclapclapclap for star.

**threadjack stopped**

Hmmm. I think your approach to POJA is good. Safe environment. I'm a little conflicted right now. I have approached her this way before. You get a sense as to when it is a good time for this type of discussion. Lately my wife (within the past 4 weeks) has been put on a MAO inhibitor for mild depression. Her feelings of jealousy have declined somewhat, but at the same time we seem a little more distant. I don't know if we are keeping our feelings of intimacy from each other because of fear or what? I've noticed in the past whenever we are intimate her jealousy increases the next day. Is this a protective measure that's been hardwired?
I will try the POJA like you suggested, but I just have this feeling this is something she needs to conquer and decide to conquer on her own. I think it is to painful for her though. She told me before we met she was seeing a psychologist who had her under a mild hypnosis. She was supposed to go through a door which represented, I believe, her fears. When she started to open the door she started to get very upset and could not go through the door. I don't know what was there, but I believe it had something to do with child abuse.

Someone asked about her daughters father, he was selfish and into only himself. She caught him cheating on her and constantly trying to hide internet pornagraphy from her. He hit her several times when they argued. Very bad situation. She said her jealousy was not that bad with him though because she didn't care for him as much.
I just don't want to continue paying for her father and ex husbands past deeds. I'm sad. Sometimes I feel close to her and others I sit and wonder what it would be like without her. Both make me sad at this point. Confused.

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>