Bad, for one, because counselor was a "no show." Never happened before. Wires probably got crossed due to the season....

WH has such a way of making me feel like I'm crazy!

I get to our counseling appt. today (we haven't had one in months). He's already there reading a magazine. Does he stop reading? No. I just sit there sniffling and coughing and I guess wires were crossed because counselor never came out. I said I was going to the bathroom and if she hadn't come out by then, I guess she forgot. I came back. He was still reading. He said, "Do you want to go?" I said, "I guess so since we are not using this opportunity to talk and you choose to read a magazine instead." He said, sarcastically, "What do you want to talk about?" I said, "I guess YOU have NOTHING to talk about." He said, "Obviously you do." So I said it.....

I feel like when the foundation was broke, it was an opportunity to rebuild. I feel as if YOU should have been the one to try and build the fastest since it was you that put the wheels in motion. I don't feel like you have. I feel like the past few months where you could have been gaining some ground have been a waste. I feel like you are here just for appearances. I don't think it is in you deep down. I am tired of feeling insecure. I'm tired of feeling like a mom, not a marriage partner. I feel like you just want someone to take care of you, no questions asked and then have a f**k buddy on the side and if you could get away with it, you would. I know the hours you are working aren't helping matters. BUT there are ways -- there is always a way -- to make someone feel significant. I do not feel significant. (I can't remember what else I said.)

Bottom line was that I let him know that I still feel insecure and not very important in his life.

He said well, he's not getting any passion from me and at least he can display some passion for us. I said that's only when you want to get laid -- not at any other time. (For instance, He hadn't come to bed at all last week. He went to sleep before me Friday night. Saturday night, ditto. I came to bed and he started grabbing at me. I said I feel like I was getting a cold (kids are sick) and it was my time of the month. He said he "wanted" me and didn't care. Last night, he didn't come to bed. I asked why. He said he didn't want to get sick. Hmmmmm, didn't seem to care the night before.)

He said it works both ways. I want from him what I am giving him and saying what I do are displays of affection.

I said, yeah, you're right. I'm doing for you what I want you to do for me and you are doing what you want from me. So what do we do?

He said, no. That he does more. I said you really think so? He said yes. I said you did more for me before than you do now. He said no he didn't. I said yes you did. He said, no, I just see it that way now. (This is where he is making me think I'm crazy! It's not true! He would alternate cooking and cleaning w/me. He gave son his bath every night, etc.) I said so. He said, well, that's not possible with ALL the hours he is working. I said, I KNOW that, but that on occasion he could unload the dishwasher and leave a little note or just leave a little note here and there. So he threw it back at me re the passion. I said, I've been telling you that for months! I cannot have passion when I feel insecure and insignificant!

And that was that. As we were walking out the door he said we are in the same place we have been in. I said I know and that was why I felt counseling was so important so it could help lead us in the right direction but when you miss a couple of months at a time, it's not going to work. I reminded him that if HE was so Passionate, then why is he not trying to get us in to see the counselor more or even remembering appts. His reply was that it is not his strong suit.

Y'all, I really am losing hope here. I feel the end is near instead of a new beginning... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I just spoke w/a friend. She says she hears the "lack of respect" in my voice. So I guess that's it. In fact, I know that's it. I cannot find respect for him again. I do not know if I am so blinded that I do not see him trying to gain it but I really don't think he is trying.

<small>[ December 22, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: SoDisappointed ]</small>

You have been hurt terribly, and he has a nonchalant attitude about it. He isn't showing care for how you feel.

I'm beginning to wonder if he even knows how to care...

So Disappointed,

It looks to me from what you said that there are still many LBs in your words to your husband. What would it take for you to learn to hear yourself and end those behaviors?

Please know that I am SO sympathetic to the pain you've been through! I know you've been terribly hurt and that you're still very lonely and need a lot more than your husband is giving right now. It sounds to me like both of you are having a very hard time meeting each other's needs right now, and I wonder, too, what it's going to take for you two to turn it around. How much time are you spending together and alone and having fun these days? Sounds like maybe some more of that would be a good thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's already there reading a magazine. Does he stop reading? No. I just sit there sniffling and coughing ...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like you were hurt because you felt like he was ignoring you?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said, "Do you want to go?" I said, "I guess so since we are not using this opportunity to talk and you choose to read a magazine instead." He said, sarcastically, "What do you want to talk about?" I said, "I guess YOU have NOTHING to talk about." He said, "Obviously you do." So I said it.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch. Everyone got hurt in this interchange. You're LBing and negative mind-reading, here. "YOU have NOTHING to talk about" -- you don't know that for certain. All you know is that he was sitting and reading a magazine. You don't know any of what he's thinking, and rather than saying you were hurt and asking him to change his actions, you expected him to know what you want. It sucks, but our spouses are never telepathic. (Personally, I want that built-in on the next model...)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like when the foundation was broke, it was an opportunity to rebuild.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an okay starting point, EXCEPT that it's not how you feel. To be about how you feel, you would have had to say, "When the foundation was broken, I felt hopeful that it was an opportunity to rebuild."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel as if YOU should have been the one to try and build the fastest since it was you that put the wheels in motion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch! This is a selfish demand (you should be the one to rebuild).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel like you have. I feel like the past few months where you could have been gaining some ground have been a waste. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this isn't about how you feel. How you feel would be something like, "I feel hurt and frustrated because I haven't seen progress that I hoped to see."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like you are here just for appearances. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More negative mind-reading. You don't know what he thinks about why he's there. What was it that was really hurting you, here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think it is in you deep down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Disrespectful judgment. You're telling him he can't do this? Is that really something you want him to hear?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am tired of feeling insecure. I'm tired of feeling like a mom, not a marriage partner.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Being tired is absolutely legitimate and really good to share. But... what action can he take that will help with this? What could he change to make you feel more secure? What could he do to make you feel more like a marriage partner?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like you just want someone to take care of you, no questions asked and then have a f**k buddy on the side and if you could get away with it, you would.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm. If I could translate this, what you said here was, "Your emotional needs of domestic support and sexual fulfillment are not worthy of support and I am going to be disrespectful of them as much as I possibly can."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know the hours you are working aren't helping matters. BUT there are ways -- there is always a way -- to make someone feel significant. I do not feel significant. (I can't remember what else I said.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you haven't included your emotional content, and you've left him to guess what "ways" you would like to feel "significant." Men, to put it bluntly, are LOUSY at guessing games. Really, really bad at them. Men who are defensive, hurt, and angry are not only bad at them, but they don't want to play at all. So... I'm thinking he probably didn't hear much of what you wanted him to hear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said well, he's not getting any passion from me and at least he can display some passion for us. I said that's only when you want to get laid -- not at any other time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And again you're dissing what is, in all likelihood, his most important emotional need. All in all, that's probably not going to be the best way to get what you want...

[/quote](For instance, ...)[/quote]

Ouch, ouch, ouch. There's all kinds of stuff here. His EN of SF is not being fulfilled and the poor guy is getting desperate and stressed about it. At the same time, YOUR emotional needs for affection (cuddling, anyone?) are not being met and you're getting desperate and stressed about it, too. AND you have a cold AND everyone's grumpy and ONLY MEN want to have sex when they're in bad moods. Don't ask me why, I don't get it either. But they do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said it works both ways. I want from him what I am giving him and saying what I do are displays of affection.

I said, yeah, you're right. I'm doing for you what I want you to do for me and you are doing what you want from me. So what do we do?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's probably exactly true. You're doing what you want and he's doing what he wants and ... to quote Dr. Phil, "How's that working for ya?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said, no. That he does more. I said you really think so? He said yes. I said you did more for me before than you do now. He said no he didn't. I said yes you did. He said, no, I just see it that way now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you see the futility in "noyesnoyes" game, here? It's quite possible that you are BOTH right. He may feel much more conscious of the things he does, and he may do different things, and thus feel as though he's working at it a lot harder and doing "more." Plus, his Love Bank is depleted so it takes more emotional energy (again, doing "more") for him to do the things that he does, even if the actual measure of them is less.

You, on the other hand, have an incredibly depleted Love Bank at the moment, and the things he does do are fighting against all that hurt and unhappiness. So you may be much less open to the positive things that he does do, and therefore feel it as "less."

Neither of those is wrong, they're just different perspectives on the same situation.

I'm going to stop here in terms of going back and forth about your really unpleasant Relationship Talk. I'm really sorry it happened and am also very sorry at how much hurt there is in this for you and your husband.

I really have to ask, though -- what are you (singular) willing to do to improve your marriage?

Just J had some really good advice there as there was some major Love Busters going on in the conversation between you and your husband.

I learned through my husband's affair to act and react like I believed the OW was acting!

In other words I started:
1. ALWAYS being sweet and kind to him.
2. ALWAYS listening to him; his every word.
3. Never being a disagreeable nagging wife!
4. E-mailing little love notes and e-cards to him.
5. Giving him so much sex (I used my imagination and became a hot lover)...he never had to ever ask for it!
6. ALWAYS greeting him at the door with a hug and kiss, with make-up on and looking pretty.
7. And I gave him TIME to heal and get over the OW.
I actually gave him my understanding that I knew he cared deeply about her.

I decided to go that route rather than to be mean and accusing and asking "Why would you do this to me, to our marriage?".
I never once said that because I do have an understanding that 'infatuations' and being 'smitten' over an OW are hard addictions to get over! (Whether they are emotional or physical, they are still hard to get over.)

I was very much in love with a young handsome man, that broke up with me because he had found another 'sweetie', before my husband and I started dating.

I do still remember the pain of the break-up and also the feelings of rejection.
Sincerely, Julie Jo

<small>[ December 23, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

The advice was good. I did all that in the beginning only for him to no-show appts., etc. He would always say he "forgot." I would reschedule or ask if it was what "he" really wanted to do. I kept up taking care of him, the kids, the sex, etc. I kept waiting for him to see that I was willing to move foward.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words I started:
1. ALWAYS being sweet and kind to him.
2. ALWAYS listening to him; his every word.
3. Never being a disagreeable nagging wife!
4. E-mailing little love notes and e-cards to him.
5. Giving him so much sex (I used my imagination and became a hot lover)...he never had to ever ask for it!
6. ALWAYS greeting him at the door with a hug and kiss, with make-up on and looking pretty.
7. And I gave him TIME to heal and get over the OW.
I actually gave him my understanding that I knew he cared deeply about her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto. I would e-mail all kinds of stuff only to never be acknowledged or even read PERIOD. (And, yes, this word hurt my feelings tremendously because he had the time to read and reply to OW on a daily basis.) I have always enjoyed sex and even more so w/him and been w/out for a long time myself. When A ended, WH had never been around much for about 6 mos prior so I was ready, willing, and able.

So I went to the 180 degree divorce busting technique. That got him going. Maybe I should have done it longer? It seems he only responds to that. He waits for me to hit my wit's end and he'll come around for a week and then see he has appeased me and go back to the way he was before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How much time are you spending together and alone and having fun these days? Sounds like maybe some more of that would be a good thing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NONE. MC asked him to take me to lunch once a week (he has Friday's off) so we could have time to talk. That has not happened for months! So I tried leaving notes and asked him to do the same. Read them when he got home and respond. Did he ever? No. He would call prior to leaving for work to talk (which now I would be at work) for about 5 minutes. I'll call him at night so he can say goodnight to the kids -- when I get the phone back, nothing. He will be out of time.

That's why I LB'd all over the place because I'm out, dry, beating my head against a wall. I'm tired of the roller coaster -- the Type A-type all sweetness to get nothing in return -- the 180 degree -- only to get a short-term response so I start being all Type A again.

It's been 9 months of this.

<small>[ December 23, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: SoDisappointed ]</small>

SoDisappointed, what's it going to take for you to entice your husband into spending time with you? You say that the 180 techniques work for a week and then stop, so I wonder if your husband is still in contact with his affair partner? Are you -sure- about your answer? And why aren't you holding him accountable for his actions? Do you have a plan for recovery that you both enthusiastically agreed to?

JustJ,

No, I'm not really sure if he is no longer in contact w/affair partner. I think they are not in contact, though. When the A was exposed, WH was very upset that OW gave up the farm so quickly (she did so because she didn't want me to tell her H). She also told me that they didn't use protection -- this really pissed WH off. WH called her up and yelled at her -- this was a side of him she had never seen so she called me and told me because she was scared of him now. She also supposedly had no idea he was bi-polar and when I informed her of this, she seemed to be a little worried about that.

Supposedly he kept calling her at least once a week on the premise of business to find out about ex-business partners. AND supposedly she asked if they could meet for lunch one day and he agreed -- said it was platonic. At this lunch he said that she said she was already seeing someone else. When asked why this was mentioned, he said it just was. I'm thinking it did not end the way WH says which is that he woke up one day and realized he did not like the person he had become. I think she ended it -- her H was getting wise.

I have thought about giving her a call now that the dust has cleared and it's been a while and the raw emotions are no longer there to see what she will say now. But then I wonder what that will really do for me? She can tell me the same or she can say how he really didn't want to end it. If she says he has not contacted since D-Day then am I to just set in my mind more paranoia about whether or not he is lying today?

I'm really having a tough time and am trying not to give in to it. Either I want to work at it or I don't.

We had another blow up over x-mas and then he went out and got drunk (rarely does this -- his brother was in town) and seemed really vulnerable after argument -- a side I rarely see. The next day, I'm reading the book of Galatians and about believing in the Spirit and therefore, walking in the Spirit. Made me feel guilty all over again (your above post got me feeling really bad about my behavior -- I'm not normally that way, it had all just built up). So I decided to write out my feelings alone -- no LB'g. Told him how scared I was and I feel I need to protect myself, etc. When he got home from work and came to bed (2 am), he hugged me and said how much he loved me.

I'm just so scared I'm being played and it's a horrible feeling. I feel I'm being played until he can find a better way out than now (which is a year off).

I've got to say again that I think you really need a plan for recovery. It sounds to me like your MC efforts aren't helping and your husband hasn't taken the steps that are needed to make you feel safe in the marriage. Those are disasters waiting to happen! Please, be honest with your husband (yes, without LBing!) about how you feel about all this. I know how hard this is; I'm not nearly as good at the DOING as I am the TALKING. Still, it's important stuff.

And... even if you have to start riding along with your husband to work and back, find a way to spend more time with him. It really, really helps.

Well, I haven't gotten a written response to my note yet but he did tell me today that he was planning to so I'm going to hold him to that. I said it would help "me" more if he would try to respond in a timely manner so I do not feel I am being blown off. He said okay. I said I promise you this will help our recovery so much more if you do this for me and in turn, you will be getting your needs met because I will be feeling better about us. He said okay.

Riding to and from work will not work. His hours suck. He goes in at 2 pm on Sunday and works until midnight but rarely gets to leave then. Mondays its noon to 8 but does he leave at 8? No. He didn't get home until 3 am. Tues & Wed it is 4 to midnight (never leaving at midnight). I work regular hours PLUS we have 2 small children (20 mo old and 3 year old) so no luck there as well.

My plan for recovery (and I told him this) is to take things as they are like he mentioned when I LB'd re there's nothing we can do about our hours right now and being able to make time each day to communicate SO my plan is that we communicate by notes and then fill in with live conversation when possible. This is to start today.

Wish me/us luck!