<BR>Okay, here's a major thing I don't get. The victim of betrayal or adultery is the one who's supposed to do the work of reviving the marriage, making deposits into the LB, etc. Never mention the betrayal. Suppress your own feelings, make extra efforts day and night to make the offending spouse feel comfortable and safe, do everything s/he likes, the way s/he likes it. Act cheerful at all times, no matter what happens. Go into therapy if necessary to try and determine how and in what way you were failing to meet his/her emotional needs, even if those needs were never expressed to you. Go back to having sex right away so that your partner won't feel deprived or punished. <P>In my case, our counselor tells me never to ask any questions about the affairs, and my partner is totally happy, as though nothing had even happened, even though he had been lying to me and cheating for years! So long as I don't bring it up, he's fine, things are as they were before. ...When he was playing around. <P>The message I get is "get over it and move on", after all it's over a week since D-Day, I shouldn't be thinking about it much less talking about it. But since I'm not permitted to ask about what happened, it's very hard to close the book on something I know so little about. How long was it going on? How many OW were there?! I have no clue. At least Dr. Harley recommends honesty!<P>Two questions. 1) Isn't it a bad idea to reward behavior that is so damaging to you and to the relationship? and 2) Should everyone be advised to lie and cheat on your spouse so you can get this royal treatment without any cost whatsoever, except the loss of your partner's trust in you, which is apparently your partner's problem anyway? <P>Thanks for your reponses. Adrian<P>PS: I know, these questions are slightly rhetorical...

AdrianG:<P>Answer 1: You're not supposed to reward bad behavior, of course. But neither should you be "punishing" your spouse. So, you should be working on your marriage.<P>Answer 2: There usually is a tremendous cost to both spouses in an affair. And this cost can spread to friends and family.<P>It sounds like you're in with a counselor who may suscribe to some of Harley's theories without understanding them. I would tell your husband that you want to know about the affairs, and that you'd like to POJA an agreement on how to discuss them. You should never be supressing your feelings (violates the Rule of Honesty). You should do things they like, the way they like---IF it doesn't violate the POJA---which means that YOU'RE enthusiastic about doing them.<P>It sounds like your husband isn't taking the "extraordinary measures" to help you get over the affair. This is something that Harley would recommend that he do. Maybe it's time to find a different counselor...

It took me a long time to get this right Adrian. First of all, I'd look into a new marriage councelor, if you're indeed unsatified. <P>Only one week since dday? There's a looong road ahead. I needed to talk ALOT about not only the affairs, but the state of our marriage. Personally, I couldn't have gotten over it otherwise. <P>The "acting cheerful" and biting your tongue is to allow the WS a place of refuge. This has really helped my WS open up and talk. If he feels like he's talkiing to an oncoming train, he will stop. If he feels like he can talk and explain how he was feeling AT THE TIME (much different than he sees things now) then he speaks more openly, more frequently. He is also more eager to make deposits into the LB, thanking me for listening and telling me over and over again to ask him anything. <P><BR>Keep reading and posting here! I have found so much strength from other people's stories. <P>Good luck to you!<P>Snow

K and Snowwhite, thanks so much for your replies. They make a lot of sense and that helps! I agree that the counselor isn't quite with the program, but at least we're going to one. I'm hoping H will agree to interviewing a couple more next week. And I'm reading "Love Must Be Tough" tonight. Very interesting and largely convincing. I hope I don't do any more pathetic displays, but we'll see. Thanks again for your help and kind words. <P>Adrian<P>PS: I LOVE the POJA. But I can't implement it alone. It really is a radical idea, and people I've mentioned it to think it's crazy. They should try it for awhile.

Hi Adrian,<P>Have you tried the phone counseling session with either Steve or Jennifer? They will help you understand plan A vs plan B and what is currently the best option for your situation. Also there is an emotional needs questionnaire that really help each mate identify their true needs and how to work on their need and that of their mate. <P>While Plan A is to show the WS a safe place. The need of the BS is not to be neglected. Please read Surviving an Affair along with His Needs/Her Needs. You will find a lot of helpful information. <P>L.

I didnt do plan A after d-day 3 mo ago. What happened next was H moved out to be with OW for a few wks then when he moved back in I kept pulling him aside and asking his questions about the A.He would get upset and defensive each time I did this. This made him secretly re-initiate contact with OW who was pressuring him to divorce me so much that he actually filed on me then cancelled the papers the next day telling our therapist he was caught in a cycle with OW and felt he had to do what she told him in order to stay in contact with her. Sure Plan A is really hard on us betrayed spouses but consider the alternatives of continuing to fight when your H is already pulled toward someone else emotionally. lifeismessy

AdrianG:<P>Yes, you can implement the Policy of Joint Agreement by yourself---Steve Harley taught me this (painful) technique. It's basically considering ANYTHING that you're going to do that will affect your spouse, and ask:<P><I>How will my spouse feel if I...</I><P>If you know that the action is going to be negative (or you suspect it), then don't. The one-sided POJA is basically <B>never gain at your spouse's expense.</B> I suggest that if you do this in a one-sided manner, that you let your husband KNOW that your using the "POJA" by using the MB language to describe your actions. It's a quasi-sneaky way of educating him on it's use---my wife completely and totally dismissed the POJA when she was having an affair, and now she even uses the term "POJA" in discussions with me...<BR>

<BR>Orchid, thanks for your reponse. I'm too afraid to try Plan B, because due to finances I'd be the one who has to move out (the house is in his name) and he'd probably keep our daughter as he makes a lot more money than I do. So that's very hard to consider. I did get him to do the EN questionnaire with me one night, and we did one for each other, turned out neither of us satisfied the other's needs very well, but I at least knew what his were and he didn't have a clue about mine. Thanks again.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>Hi Adrian, </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

K, that is mind-blowing. I definitely have to consider doing this... if I can... my pride keeps rearing its ugly head saying "why are you a doormat for this guy???"<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>AdrianG:<P>Yes, you can implement the Policy of Joint Agreement by yourself---Steve Harley taught me this (painful) technique. It's basically considering ANYTHING that you're going to do that will affect your spouse, and ask:<P><I>How will my spouse feel if I...</I><P>If you know that the action is going to be negative (or you suspect it), then don't. The one-sided POJA is basically never gain at your spouse's expense.</B> I suggest that if you do this in a one-sided manner, that you let your husband KNOW that your using the "POJA" by using the MB language to describe your actions. It's a quasi-sneaky way of educating him on it's use---my wife completely and totally dismissed the POJA when she was having an affair, and now she even uses the term "POJA" in discussions with me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hi Adrian:<P>In my more cynical moments, I would say you have hit my feelings about Plan A on the head. It does seem that the WS is rewarded for what they have done. What it boils down to is this: if you want to rebuild a relationship with the WS, Plan A is a solid part of that. You would be surprised that, as you progress, you actually feel a surge of dignity. Although I qualify my situation by saying that I am engaged, not married, I have practiced some MB principles for the past 9 months, and I'm very proud of how I have done. (and, sure, I'm not so proud of some of my other idiot moves, like not being honest about my feelings, but that's another story...)<BR> <BR>Robyn

Greetings Fellow Sufferers!<P>Okay, just kidding, kind of. But three months down the road, I wanted to sign back on and give some encouragement to BS's. I was so screwed up when I posted back in May (search for my notes if you want). I was racked with agonizing pain, and this was compounded by people saying "if he cheated it's because you weren't meeting his needs!" <P>It took me two months to get the courage (and the money) to move out. WS never even attenuated his fooling around. And kept (keeps!) lying about it. Tried a second counselor, but NO ONE CAN CHANGE A PERSON BUT HIMSELF. And he doesn't want to, or he would. Turns out he's had *dozens* of sexual partners over *four* years. "Since you're moving out, I can tell you the truth." Yes, he said those very words. <P>The good news: I'm VASTLY happier having moved out. Sure, there is still pain, confusion even, but it's such a relief not living under the same roof as this person who lies and cheats as readily as most of us breathe. I can finally begin to reconstruct my life.<P>Now he says he's doing it because I'm *not* there. I had to point out that I was there for four years, and that certainly didn't stop him. Message: Don't ignore your own feelings. That's what I did, catering to his every wish, and then getting treated just like the doormat I'd made myself. I thought you should give your all to make a marriage work. Takes two, it turns out.<P>Adrian<P>