SNL,<P>I would really appreciate your thoughts on my situation at home. I know every situation is different, but I would like to know what you think. I'll warn you this post is pretty long.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011301.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011301.html</A> <P>Thanks in advance!!

Happy to give my 2 cents for whatever it is worth dumplin. Keep in mind I am a ws, and a somewhat opinionated one at that, and that I am by definition in a fog, and must be considered at least partially infested with moose worms, but here goes. I belong to the school of thought that says marriage should never be sacrificial, one should only be in it cause you want to. I think this is a psychological truth re human beings, and interestingly is the position most competent psychologists take as well. I do not believe that marriage is about vows, children, ethics, or anything else. It is the most eminently selfish choice a human being can make, who to bare your soul (and other parts of you as well) too, who watches your back, and you theirs, who you trust with your life. You cannot do this by contract (vows, quid pro quo, etc.), you can only do it by recognizing an involuntary choosing to be vulnerable, and then choosing voluntarily to act on it. That means control is anathema to a successful marriage. What does that mean? It means if you choose to be there, you give up all efforts, subtle or otherwise, to control the outcome of you reconcilliation effort. That also means you accept the reality that it may fail, and you may be hurt even more than you are now. You focus on being the you you want to be, and letting your spouse go, in so doing they are free to choose you, the you you want to be....and if they don't...is their loss. But if you engage in competitive gamesmanship, no one will know who you are, and they may not see the you you want to be. Besides the game is a pain in the butt, makes you crazy, gives you nightmares....let it go, accept the old marriage is dead, you are dating again, and it may work or it may not. In letting it go, you will find peace, find equillibrium, you will survive, it is a great big beautiful world out there, you will be ok...IF you choose to be...ya know?<P>So what does this mean? Well it doesn't mean being a doormat, it includes setting boundaries YOU can live with. And be prepared to act decisively if the boundaries are not respected. The mistake I see (IMO) made regularly here, is a confusion over what is LB, what is plan a/b and what is boundaries. IMO it is not unreasonable to make a non-negotiable demand that contact with op cease, and extraordinary precautions be put in place. I don't think that has to happen immediately, but it has to be the short term goal, and the ws has to understand that. I resisted for 4 months, I wanted to see some evidence of change on my wifes part first, but she was not so good at plan a, more comfortable with the LB strategy (not one you will read as suggested). So we fought for months, but she would try a little, then lose it, then try a little, eventually the A stopped (as I had told her it would if she would just let me be for awhile). In the meantime the A did slow down, and most of the contact was about how to stop, what did this all mean, and some relief from the LB my wife was doing. Of course my ow lived 2000 miles away, so it was easier in a way than for you who have to deal with the op physical presence. In that case, my patience (if I were bs) would be short. A good plan a for a month or so, and boom, no contact or plan b. Frankly I see a lot of confusion (IMO) by bs. They try to plan a, but regularly LB, and keep the pot stirred, then they are reluctant to do a plan b (or spouse won't cooperate with plan b) and they just kinda get stuck in limbo. It is unreasonable to expect a bs to plan a forever, especially with a ws who is coming and going as they please. But the fear is if they spouse is sent out (plan b) the marriage is over. IMO if that ends it, it was gonna end anyways. And in many cases a plan b, works well if one does not LB. It resolves the issue of whether one wants to be married or not in fairly short order. Your affair was a big no no. So now you have similar work to do (extraordinary precautions). My wife has said several times when things were rough, she might do the same thing, and such. I would divorce her immediately if she did. IMO their is one affair per marriage as a wake-up call/learning experience (makes no difference which spouse has it) any more (by either spouse) and the marriage IMO is not worth salvaging. I don't want to pass judgement on you, it is your life, but that is how I feel. You must have a tremendous amount of anger toward spouse to have your affair, and you will have to look inside and find out why, and whether you want to do anything about it. From your post, I am not sure you want this man for your husband. Likewise of course, you must assess who your husband is (as a result of his affair) and decide whether he is worthy or not. All this must be done first, before staying together for the children. You don't have to be madly in love to raise the kids (and seperate after that obligation is done if you want), but you should respect and sorta like each other at least.<P>Assuming you both want to make it work, then IMO you should start the extraordiary precautions for each other. Forget talking about guilt and affairs (for now, maybe closure later). Tell you H you absolutely are not going to be judged by him (or he by you), and he comes to the table willingly, or you are outta there. You two are gonna accomplish absolutely nothing like it is now, except maybe to get so mad at each other, any real chance of reconcilliation will be lost.<P>btw, focusing on him, and being angry over his behaviour (not apoligizing, LB, not meeting your needs etc.) is what playing the game means. Don't focus on his behaviour at all (except no contact), you do YOUR work, let him do his. NO LOVE BUSTING allowed. It is very hard, drove my wife crazy, but she has finally kinda got into it, and likes it. She has relied for 23 years on angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, and such to cope. She has been pretty good for a few weeks now, and I told her she is so cute when she bites her lip...and believe me, I am an expert on my wife, the recipients of anger usually are, so I know......and it is making a difference. Surprisingly I find myself responding, she demanded for months I show affection, hug her, kiss her etc, and I wouldn't....not cause I tried not too, but because I COULD NOT. Now she is getting more....why? I dunno, I just feel like it....do you see? <P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 20, 2001).]

Thanks SNL. You've given me a lot to think about. I will have to take some time out and get back to you on what I decide.

Yes, I do have alot of anger towards my H. I'm just very tired of trying to be my best. I'm tired of trying period. I hurt constantly and he doesn't seem to care. Of course, since I'm in Plan A and one of his LB's is me acting mopey, I try to act happy. I feel completely worn out. I don't know which way to go. The easiest route would be to end the whole thing, but we still have those moments. I'm sure you know what moments I'm talking about-where you look at your spouse and they look at you and you see the person you married-not the person they are being currently. I do love him and I want him to be with me until we both grow old and stooped. I don't like what's he is right now though.<P>I am trying to take those extra precautions you talked about. The only place I would have to go if I left would be to my family who lives in the same town as person I had the A with. H won't leave here though. Never enough money, he's too stressed out right now to think about it. <P>I feel like at times we are making some headway, but then I begin to wonder if it's all an act on his part. I wonder if I'll ever know.

Hi Dumplin', mind if I jump in here for a sec? <P>This is actually for S-N-L.<P>When I first began to read your words here and on other posts, I wasn't quite sure what to make of you or your situation. With any luck, I am learning to be less quick to judge those who possess some knowledge that can and should be passed on to others. But there are some things that are bugging me, and I happen to think you'll set me straight (or try to at least.) <P>One of the questions I have for you is - why are you utilizing this plan to rebuild? You still care for the OW, feel no remorse, how can you say you want to save your marriage? How will your life be if you love 2 women? How will theirs be? Do you still care for the OW because you CAN'T move on or you WON'T move on? <P>I want you to understand this is not your run of the mill holy moses MB attack - I'm trying to keep an open mind - I'm not brainwashed by the plan here. Just some inquiries that have been forming as I read.<P>I am somewhat amazed in the insightful way you sized up the situation here: <B>"Frankly I see a lot of confusion (IMO) by bs. They try to plan a, but regularly LB, and keep the pot stirred, then they are reluctant to do a plan b (or spouse won't cooperate with plan b) and they just kinda get stuck in limbo."</B> That is exactly why I don't feel inspired to respond to many of the posts I see here. Not because I don't care but because it's the same mess repeated. Granted, no two situations here are identical, but there are astonishing similiarities once any person's situation gets to this stalemate. <P>IMO, Plan A is there for the BS to be able to say that s/he did all that could be done, regardless of where the WS ends up. It may or may not work. My H did not want to stand around feeling like a chump (as the song goes) for very long, so his Plan A had a short limit. I agree that Plan B maybe needs to be instated sooner than I see it happen many times. But people move onto that step when they are ready to, and it's easy make a call like that when it's not your heart that is breaking. They aren't weak or pushovers, they just don't want to let go of something that has been their world for so long. <P><B>"I do not believe that marriage is about vows, children, ethics, or anything else. It is the most eminently selfish choice a human being can make, who to bare your soul (and other parts of you as well) too, who watches your back, and you theirs, who you trust with your life."</B><P>Wow. This is where I being to diverge with you. Marriage is all about the vows when it comes down to it. And vows are steeped in ethics. You cannot have committment without ethics/standards on which to base your behavior on. And if you don't want committment, then what? Permission to drift in and out of relationships - some simultaneously - and nobody gets hurt? If you feel this way, S, then <I>why</I> did you ever get married? And why do you <I>stay</I> married? In my eyes you are still betraying your W, every day in a way that is just as bad as the cheating. Maybe I just don't understand where you're coming from here.... I'm willing to shut up and listen.<P>Marriage is about control, but more than control, it's about security. People want to be secure in the love that they share. Each wants the other to treat him respectfuly, kindly, with honesty and passion. We want to love and be loved, and in our culture the most sincere way of expressing this intense consuming love is to make promises that are meant to last a life time. <P>Lucky for us, there is forgiveness and second chances.<P>What I just can't fathom is your apparant disillusionment about marriage in general coupled with this resigned, sighing "oh I'll <I>try</I>"attitude towards making it work with your W. Doling out your affection as if it were candy. I duuno, if I were Mrs. SnL, I'd be pitchin' that candy right back at you and tell you not to let the door hit you in the *ss as you go. Especially considering she still has to share you, even if it's only in the heart. You're right, Plan A should only last so long. Some people's love isn't worth the effort. That's what I'm not getting about your approach. <P>But I'm sure you'll come around to tell me why I'm wrong. Why you should be allowed to get the best of both worlds, to have your cake and eat it too. <P>Sincerely,<P>Khyra <BR>

Khyra...When I first began to read your words here and on other posts, I wasn't quite sure what to make of you or your situation. With any luck, I am learning to be less quick to judge those who possess some knowledge that can and should be passed on to others. But there are some things that are bugging me, and I happen to think you'll set me straight (or try to at least.)<P>snl...I will try. First let me say I post for several reasons. <P>1. Cause I am a blabbermouth. I do like conversation (#2 en). But seriously, anything having to do with philosophy, rreligion, human behaviour, morality/ethics etc, fascinates me. I think it part is cause it is how I cope. I gave up years ago trying to control everyone around me, now I just want to control myself, and to do that I have to understand myself. Plus I have always been obsessed about why do we exist, and what should I do about that.<P>2. I am a helpful person, and making myself available (as a ws) seems to do some good for folks. And also helps even the books for my transgressions against the cultural standards I live under.<P>3. I am trying to understand my own train wreck.<P>k...One of the questions I have for you is - why are you utilizing this plan to rebuild? <P>snl...Because if anything works, this will. If it does not, I can look in the mirror and respect myself.<P>k...You still care for the OW, feel no remorse, how can you say you want to save your marriage? <P>snl...I don't want to save my marriage. It is gone, it ended when I fell in-love with someone else. Nor do I regret that, it was no good (hence no remorse). What I am willing to do is give my wife another chance, if it works, we will "remarry" so to speak, and it will be a new marriage. I know this is what some of the other ws are feeling, but don't articulate very well, and that some of the bs don't understand either. But I do think it is a psychological reality, and why "wooing" your spouse back is more effective than guilting/coercing them back.<P>k...How will your life be if you love 2 women? How will theirs be? Do you still care for the OW because you CAN'T move on or you WON'T move on?<P>snl.....I don't know, this is unknown territory for me. I have posted some thoughts here and there on these issues though, as I try to sort them out. I am moving on, it is how I am put together, I won't stay stuck indefinitely. I was stuck awhile in the marriage, but I moved on (the A). There did come a point in the A, when I knew I was choosing, when I maybe could have stopped. I assessed my life, knew this was going to be trouble, offered the ow a chance to stop, we both decided to continue, and I think the outcome validates it was the right choice.<P>k...I want you to understand this is not your run of the mill holy moses MB attack - I'm trying to keep an open mind - I'm not brainwashed by the plan here. Just some inquiries that have been forming as I read.<P>snl...No problem, I live to be quizzed!! And actually don't mind being trashed, long as it is sincere. The only people I avoid/ignore are trolls, and sociopaths.<P>k...I am somewhat amazed in the insightful way you sized up the situation here: "Frankly I see a lot of confusion (IMO) by bs. They try to plan a, but regularly LB, and keep the pot stirred, then they are reluctant to do a plan b (or spouse won't cooperate with plan b) and they just kinda get stuck in limbo." ......That is exactly why I don't feel inspired to respond to many of the posts I see here. Not because I don't care but because it's the same mess repeated. <P>snl...It does make you feel like beating your head against the wall sometimes....but people are hurting and struggling in their own time and ways. That they are here at all, risking public censure is a validation they (we) are all trying, so have that commonality. It would be really helpful though if this forum could somehow be indexed, cause it does get repetitive, and one can only repeat themselves so much, before getting worn out, and moving on. I am seriously considering writing a book from the ws viewpoint, this experience here has been a real eye-opener for me, and I can see the ws is seriously misunderstood sometimes. Yes it can be about a stupid mistake, and a little fog, and selfishness, but oft times it is much more serious than that. I am coming to believe that there is a whole (fairly large) class of affair that is about controllers and controllees (and escape), and that this is poorly understood from the ws standpoint.<P>k...Granted, no two situations here are identical, but there are astonishing similiarities once any person's situation gets to this stalemate. <P>snl...I agree, I think all marital relationships derive out of 1/2 dozen or so basic temperaments/behaviours. Undrstanding and identifying your underlying basis is the key to resolution. <P>k...IMO, Plan A is there for the BS to be able to say that s/he did all that could be done, regardless of where the WS ends up. It may or may not work. <P>snl...Exactly, I agree. I almost long to be a bs, the way to proceed is so clear, so elegant, so full of promise, being a ws is very confusing, plus you are a low-life loser to boot, with a dismal future, and forever dasmaged goods.<P>k...I agree that Plan B maybe needs to be instated sooner than I see it happen many times. But people move onto that step when they are ready to, and it's easy make a call like that when it's not your heart that is breaking. They aren't weak or pushovers, they just don't want to let go of something that has been their world for so long.<P>snl....Weak, pushover etc. are derogatory labels, people are what they are of course. But people do make poor decisions if we judge by results. And living your life based on fear is a recipe for disaster. The goal (one of them) of MB, psychology, and self-help is to give people the tools to overcome fear, and thereby set THEMSELVES free. I don't think a fearful person can love. Just as a controller is about themselves, so is clingy and needy about themselves, is just a "nicer" way of contol.<P><B>"I do not believe that marriage is about vows, children, ethics, or anything else. It is the most eminently selfish choice a human being can make, who to bare your soul (and other parts of you as well) too, who watches your back, and you theirs, who you trust with your life."</B><P>K...Wow. This is where I being to diverge with you. Marriage is all about the vows when it comes down to it. And vows are steeped in ethics. You cannot have committment without ethics/standards on which to base your behavior on. <P>snl...Hmmm...In a way I wish it were so K. But if what you say is true, then all one has to do for a scuccessful marriage is make a vow. Many do, I would guess most failed marriages start out with heartfelt vows, yet they fail anyways. We can blame the people, or we can theorize that marital psychology is not about vows, observation tells us this is true. Vows (IMO) are a societal effort to regulate human bonding (via peer pressure), they have failed miserably, cause vows do nothing, provide nothing, to deal with the psychological issues of bonding. I started with vows, strong Christian vows, Catholic Church, the morality I was raised and steeped in, and I clung to them for years as my desire to remain married grew less and less, until ultimately they failed....and I left. I know who I am, I am not a bad immoral unethical person, something else happened, and it is that understanding I seek.<P>k...And if you don't want committment, then what? <P>snl...That is part of the problem, misapplication of ideas, one cannot commit to marriage, one can only commit to making a good faith effort to be honest, or participate in marital type conflict resolution.<P>k...Permission to drift in and out of relationships - some simultaneously - and nobody gets hurt? <P>snl...No, there are rules. Marriage incurs exclusivity committment (as opposed to lifetime you own me committment). I violated those rules. My failure was telling my wife as soon as I realized I loved another. But that is a very hard standard to live to. If you are that much together, you are probably together enough to have first either divorced, or reconcilled in a dysfunctional marriage in the first place....an affair is in part a life learning experience. But only once.<P>k...If you feel this way, S, then did you ever get married? <P>snl....Same reasons everyone else does, my dna commanded it.<P>k...And why do you stay married? <P>snl...I won't if we don't find passion for being married (as opposed to a comfortable quid pro quo basis).<P>K...In my eyes you are still betraying your W, every day in a way that is just as bad as the cheating. Maybe I just don't understand where you're coming from here.... I'm willing to shut up and listen.<P>snl...Don't know what you mean. I will do no contact, I will tear down my emotional barriers, I will do the work. None of this has anything to do with my feelings re ow. But I will be honest with w re those feelings, that is all one can do.<P>k...Marriage is about control, but more than control, it's about security. <P>snl...Ah but that is the problem. Too often it is. But I have come to believe that is a mistake. A successful marriage is about no control at all. You are 100% vulernable everyday, your life (well-being) is literally in the hands of your spouse, and they have your blessing to do with you as they will, even throw you away if that is what they need. Is the completeopposite of control, and is also the nature of true love. Is this unrealistic? (statisiticaly yes)...is it possible...yes. Just depends on where you set the marriage bar in your life. If two people marry and have set the bar (expectations) in different places you will have problems...the greater the height difference the greater the problems.<P>k...People want to be secure in the love that they share. Each wants the other to treat him respectfuly, kindly, with honesty and passion. We want to love and be loved, and in our culture the most sincere way of expressing this intense consuming love is to make promises that are meant to last a life time.<P>snl...As you can see, I disagree. People do want to love and be loved, and feel secure....but you cannot achieve that by design, you can only achieve it by giving up any effort to control...and promises are all about control.<P>k...Lucky for us, there is forgiveness and second chances.<P>snl...you bet.<P>k....What I just can't fathom is your apparant disillusionment about marriage in general coupled with this resigned, sighing "oh I'll try "attitude towards making it work with your W. <P>snl...Sorry I come across this way. It is not my mindset. I am actually a staunch proponent of marriage, to the point I don't believe the base unit of the human species is the individual, but is the couple. A properly mated couple will out perform by every measure of success the results of life over living it as 2 singles.<P>k...Doling out your affection as if it were candy. <P>snl...No way. I don't dole, that would be disgusitingly manipulative, I act on my feelings (and tempered by my reason).<P>k...I duuno, if I were Mrs. SnL, I'd be pitchin' that candy right back at you and tell you not to let the door hit you in the *ss as you go. <P>snl....That has happened on occassion.<P>k...Especially considering she still has to share you, even if it's only in the heart. <P>snl....That is a hard place for sure. Tell me k, have you figured out how to make yourself feel whatever you want?<P>k...You're right, Plan A should only last so long. Some people's love isn't worth the effort. That's what I'm not getting about your approach.<P>snl...Is not an approach, it is about emotional honesty. I don't want to be manipulated, nor do I want to manipulate. I am trying to be as honest as possible so my w truly knows who I an too, it is not only me deciding it is her choice too. She married (by choice, and something she says she values) a highly analytical person, also one who feels deeply, and won't settle for "comfortable", or "content". We (my kind) are very difficult people to bond with, we question everything, all the time, but you always know where we are too (usually). She knows I am here, and I will give it my all, cause anything less would violate my standards of emotional honesty. The trouble getting started was getting myself to the place I could honestly say I was willing to try....but once I say that, (and have) you can stake your life on it. The affair was not cause I am untrustworthy, or dishonest, it was cause in my estimation the marriage was over, and had been for some time. I won't make that mistake again (clarifying our status with w). Keep in mind she had told me many times I was unworthy and she wanted a divorce. Now she says she didn't mean it, admits it was an effort to control me. But the thing is, you point a gun at someone, they are crazy to believe anything but that you intend to shoot them. It was not up to me to discern her intent. Don't ever tell anyone you want a divorce unless you mean it. I only told my wife that once, and I meant it. She declined, and here we are.<P>k...But I'm sure you'll come around to tell me why I'm wrong. Why you should be allowed to get the best of both worlds, to have your cake and eat it too.<P>snl....Now now Khyra a little gratuitious bashing? No one is wrong per se, we (I) only seek truth, an elusive animal in human relationships...You may be right, I may be seeking the best of both worlds, a wife fearful I will always leave, and carrying a torch for ow (also helpful for keeping w in line). I worry about that too, and can only hope if it is true God strikes me down, and sets my wife free. I don't think I am that evil, but who knows what really lurks in the depths of our souls. Thank-you for your comments, and good luck in your relationships.<BR>

<BR>Dumplin<P>I would not pay much attention to SNL. He's is NOT trying to restore his marriage. All his posts are about justifying his affair and vilifying his wife. ( Who by the wayhas posted here and gets very little support). SNL does not want to be the bad guy yet he wants a divorce. So what to do? Continue to pine away over the OW, use OW to keep his wife in line ( his own words), go to counseling so he can say he tried to save his marriage but ignore all advice continue to paint his wife as the villian. His goal is to eventually force his wife to divorce him by this prolonged emotional torture. And volia he gets his divorce and he gets to be the good guy and say I tried to save my marriage.<P>Does anyone notice how he has consistenly blamed 100% of their marriage problems on her? How he paints himself as the victim? Read over on "Recovery" where you will find repentant WS posting who are truly interested in "Marriagebuilding"

yikes kal....emotional torture?...well, I quite disagree with your assessment of my motivations (even my wife would disagree with that), but thx for the comments anyways.....i think.<P>btw while one could conclude (although mistakenly) some of what you say....I am not vilifying my wife, she has her strengths and weaknesses as do we all.....what I am doing though is questioning my marriage, and why do I (or her) want to be married. Because of the issues we all say "negative" things re spouse, cause we are talking about what we don't like. If we were all happy with our spouses we probably wouldn't be here. True, I have mostly talked about "her" as I see it. But for the record (and buried somewhere in my posts) I acknowledged I am by nature a conflict avoider, and stopped communicating pretty much with wife (gave up) some time ago...that is my failure. I also by choice stopped meeting some of her EN. And I have my share of temperament/habits that grate on her (compatibility issues). But there is no denying, by counsellors, or herself, the overriding roadblock to marital resolution is her anger and control efforts.<BR>

SNL you are so textbook passive-aggressive! You are just too easy to read.<P>There you go again blaming your wife. Gee your never get tired of it. Could it be is is just possible that the roadblock to your marital recovery as you call it (this is a joke right?) is the fact that YOU ARE STILL IN LOVE WITH THE OW! That you are putting 0 effort into recovering your marriage. That you are continuing contact with the OW. Hmmm nah, can't be 'cuz we all know everything is your W fault.<P>Why do you continue to post here? You are not trying to recover your marriage. Is it some ego trip like you think you have something of value to offer those here? No need to answer these are just rhetorical questions. But you are not fooling anybody here eveyrone is more than aware of your true intentions you are not the first WS to try this tack there have been others before you.<BR>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited August 21, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited August 21, 2001).]

your comments are noted kalgrl<P>perhaps you missed the numerous places have said am in no contact status now.<P>the "blame" mentioned was not mine, was my w and counsellors observations....but she posts here, she can refute if she wishes.<P>re my feelings toward ow, I know of no way to "choose" what my feelings are or are not...do you? Are you aware the harley principles require me to make these feelings known to my wife (or by proxy, own up to them here on the board).<P>Obviously I um.... annoy you in some way, I would like to know why if you wouldn't mind saying. Your post indicated you think I am some sort of phoney, could you express why more specifically? May be nothing more than bad chemistry, and the volatile nature of this site and it's subject matter, so may be no real reason, just displaced anger, or what have you. But for the life of me, if you have read most of my posts I cannot see how you arrived at the opinions implied in your rhetorical questions.<P>btw do you (or anyone else) post here cause you think you have something of value to offer, and if so is that an ego trip for all who do so?<P>anyways, not offended, but you sure have puzzled me today, and I do appreciate your taking the time to tell me how you see me.

The only truth you have every posted here is when you stated that you are a liar. <P>There is a post from Khyra on this thread. She posted about you over on recovery board. I suggest you go read it. You won't get it because you don't want to get it. The bottom line is you are not trying to rebuild your marriage and this is a marriagebuilders site. But the bigger issue is that BS here are taking advice from you which is the part I find frightening.

<B>"we can theorize that marital psychology is not about vows, observation tells us this is true. Vows (IMO) are a societal effort to regulate human bonding (via peer pressure), they have failed miserably, cause vows do nothing, provide nothing, to deal with the psychological issues of bonding. I started with vows, strong Christian vows, Catholic Church, the morality I was raised and steeped in, and I clung to them for years as my desire to remain married grew less and less, until ultimately they failed....and I left. I know who I am, I am not a bad immoral unethical person, something else happened, and it is that understanding I seek."</B><P>Perhaps vows do not make a marriage, but certainly they do serve as a guide, or code for behavior in a marriage. Marriage vows are along the same lines as the pledge a Nurse takes upon graduation, the Hypocratic oath a Doctor takes, the Non-Commissioned Officer's Creed in the military. These are all credos/vows that people in those professions swear by and live by. If they don't, there are consequences. Of course it is a form of control, there does need to be a certain extent of control over the actions of those in trusted positions. Marriage is no different - in marriage, you are in a trusted vocation as well. Just because the vows failed to serve as a regulator for your actions and mine does not make the instiution flawed, it maked US flawed in that we chose not to live by our word. <P><B>"one cannot commit to marriage, one can only commit to making a good faith effort to be honest, or participate in marital type conflict resolution."</B><BR> <BR>You're getting caught up in semantics here. Marriage is <I>about</I> honesty, fair conflict resolution, etc. Ideally, when one commits to making a marriage work, they do so out of love for their spouse, and a wish to have a better future together. <P><B>"My failure was telling my wife as soon as I realized I loved another."</B><P>How was this a failure? It is one of the things you did <I>right</I>. Typo?<P><B>"k...If you feel this way, S, then did you ever get married? <P>snl....Same reasons everyone else does, my dna commanded it."</B><P>Would it kill you to take responsibility for your own actions? Come on, you are smarter than this crap. DNA indeed.<P><B>"You are 100% vulernable everyday, your life (well-being) is literally in the hands of your spouse, and they have your blessing to do with you as they will, even throw you away if that is what they need. Is the completeopposite of control, and is also the nature of true love. Is this unrealistic? "</B><P>YES! Your spouse's behavior may be disappointing to you, or even hurtful, but ultimately YOU are responsible for your own well being, not your spouse. It's up to you to communicate your needs if they aren't being met. <P><B>"People do want to love and be loved, and feel secure....but you cannot achieve that by design, you can only achieve it by giving up any effort to control...and promises are all about control."</B><P>No, <I>promises</I> are not just about control. Promises are about trust, honor, integrity. Promises are your spoken contract to do what you voluntarily say you will do. Control becomes the central theme in a promise only if you feel incapable of keeping it, if you wish to escape your own verbal contract. For instance, if someone you think is better in some way comes along....<P><B>"Tell me k, have you figured out how to make yourself feel whatever you want?<BR>"</B><P>That should be obvious. I wouln't be with my husband if I couldn't. It's called self-control, it's called discipline. All part of that terrible promise stuff you say you are adverse to. Initially, when I made the decision to end the affairs, you bet I went thru a period of withdrawl. I thought about the OM, wondered if he thought about me, etc. But I limited myself to a timeframe of this pining and whining. I shut it off, pure and simple, same as you do when you have to pee but can't, or want to say something but know you shouldn't, or want to buy something you don't have the money for. Discipline. Control - over your own actions and where your thoughts and feelings take you. Even dogs can do it! (sit, STAY....) So can we, unless we convince ourselves that we are victims of our own wild wind-blown hearts. <P>So? Poor, poor you. You let it get too far and fell in love. You poor thing, such a rotten thing to happen to a good guy like you. And poor poor me - I thought I'd indulge in another man's fawning affection. Now it's all gone and I have to settle for my soulmate, oh waaaa. Please. I got over it, so can you if you choose to. <P><B>"You may be right, I may be seeking the best of both worlds, a wife fearful I will always leave, and carrying a torch for ow (also helpful for keeping w in line). I worry about that too, and can only hope if it is true God strikes me down, and sets my wife free. "</B> <P>I really hope you are being facetious here. If not, then I don't think there is anything more I have to say to you. <P> <P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Obviously I um.... annoy you in some way, I would like to know why if you wouldn't mind saying...anyways, not offended, but you sure have puzzled me today, and I do appreciate your taking the time to tell me how you see me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear sad-n-lonely, I have to agree with KalGrl. She came down on you straight and to the point and explained to dumplin from the start why you are annoying to her, and yet you pretend not to understand. She said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KalGrl:<BR><B>I would not pay much attention to SNL. He's is NOT trying to restore his marriage. All his posts are about justifying his affair and vilifying his wife. ( Who by the wayhas posted here and gets very little support). SNL does not want to be the bad guy yet he wants a divorce...Does anyone notice how he has consistenly blamed 100% of their marriage problems on her? How he paints himself as the victim? Read over on "Recovery" where you will find repentant WS posting who are truly interested in "Marriagebuilding"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Everything KalGrl said, I have also noticed and I'm finally ready to say that while I don't doubt your sincerity, I do believe that sometimes with the best intentions, we can be sincerely wrong. I have already said this in other threads today, but I don't believe you are sad and lonely for the same reasons most people are out here feeling sad and lonely--that was your wife's original screen name... so give us all a break, please!<P>It seems to me that you are sad because you cannot be with the OW that you love so much and you are lonely because of the same reason. You are sad because you don't have the guts to just leave your wife since you said you married her in order to take care of her and rescue her, NOT because you loved her. So now, you feel completely responsible for her emotional/mental health. THAT's why you are lonely--because you tried to play God and it backfired. I could be wrong, but these are my gut instincts.<P>And OMG, if you ever write a book, please, please, please let us know the title so I can tell all my friends to be sure to avoid it!!!!! YIKES!