Whenever my H goes on a business trip, I don't feel any differently except that I am happy he's home, and I welcome him, and hug and kiss him. Treat him like I am so happy he's home.<P>When I got home though, he didn't seem to want to cuddle. First night, I was exhausted, he stayed up because he said he wasn't tired. Last night, I went to bed at 9:30, told him to wake me up when he came to bed, so we could cuddle. He has a muscle that is inflamed and causing problems for a month, he has difficulty laying on his back. When he came to bed, he said "it's too hot" -(he says I missed a word in this statement.) I said I guess I don't get a cuddle. So I got out of bed a couple of minutes later, and went to the spare bedroom. Over an hour later, I went back into bed and shook him to wake him up. <P>During the discussion, I presented the situation where I had e-mailed him when I was on the trip, and told him I missed him, and love him. He didn't acknowledge - didn't send any e-mail back about this. During the discussion last night, he said he didn't want to e-mail back and have it misinterpreted. HOW COULD SOMETHING LIKE THIS BE MISINTERPRETED? I also told him I was sending Steve $120 for counseling. I told him I was going to leave and get a job, and I guess I'd be paying him child support. I went back to the spare bedroom, H came in, sat on the bed, and said "Is this going to solve anything". I told him, "you're killing us". He just left and went back to our bed. I'm home for two days, it is the same MO - I give all the hugs, kisses, affection - and he just seems distant and numb. He got up and went back to bed, so I went in got dressed, and left in his car (mines at the paint shop), I only drove around the block. Came back about 15 mins later, he had gotten up and was in the kitchen empting the dishwasher. We had a long discussion after - talked until 3 am - I told him I don't see any hope in our marriage. We talked about alot of stuff - he says he's frustrated too, because he isn't giving me the love the way I want him to. We discussed our household junk situation, and he said it's wrong of him to push getting rid of stuff, if it comforts me to have all this stuff.<P>The thing is - I am getting so tired of being hurt all the time. I told him, I am loving him to pieces, and he says this makes him feel so guilty because he doesn't love me back. I just can't seem to lay off - <P>But my question is - Why does one want to stay in a relationship when the other one doesn't want to love?<P>I really feel like just leaving. I just don't know what to do. I can't believe our 15 yr marriage has come to this. I am the only one who keeps saying, I'm going to leave. I just wonder sometimes about breaking this cr#p to his parents - how he's done all of this. I'm not throwing the A up in his face any longer - I haven't been bringing it up every other day like I use to. I told him maybe we'd be better apart.<P>I'm really hurting, and I hate all this cr#p - why do we have to go through all of this?<P>He told me he'd been looking at cell phones while I was gone, but he didn't get me one because he didn't want me to think he was going to be calling someone - because of a remark I'd made to him about cell phones, and the contact from OP from MB. I am not scared about that any longer. I told him, I trust him like he'd said in July 2000, if she ever calls he will tell her not to call again, and he will tell me that she called. She has not called - I've checked, and I trust that he would tell me. I know he has not talked to him, because he is not acting mad like he did last summer with the withdrawal and fog. I told him about triggers, and how I can't stand that he has postage stamps in his desk at work, because they are a trigger for me. I don't see why he has to have postage in his office. If he needs stamps he can get them at home, and mail it from home. I told him I don't like the mail order he's done from the office, because he takes more time in his office looking at the book, and ordering, and he could do that at home.<P>I CAN'T stand that he has stamps at his office, because he sent her cards, from his work, and on the road when we moved.<P>We acknowledge that this is US - and not about her. The other thing he'd said earlier is that "the problem is him".<P>While I was gone he had my front squeek in the car fixed, took the couch cushions to an upholsterer and had new zippers, and sewn on the front seams; took my car to have painted; bought a new crevice tool for my vaccum (his dog chewed up 2 yrs ago); and researched cell phone for me. He shows he cares in indirect ways, but can't extend affection or SF, to me.<P>I just want to give up. <P>Still hurting, after shock

After-Shock..<BR>Our situations sound VERY similar...actuallly scary.<BR>I started thinking maybe my H was really your & he was leading a double life...Not too far fetched after being here on MB...lol<P>I feel like leaving all the time...I feel so used for trying so hard. Not bringing up the A when it is eating me alive every sec. of every day.<P>Read my post...Get back to me if you'd like.<P>A little profile: Married 17 yrs..4 kids...41 self employed<BR>Busy like crazy..

Aftershock,<P>I don't know your whole story, but I'll relate a little of what I am thinking cuz you struck a nerve with me.<P>When are BS's ever satisfied? You're getting the actions that show he cares. Can't you just let it go like that? <BR>It seems to me that constantly pushing for more is a LB.<P>Shouldn't it come from him when he's ready? Rather than from you pushing it?<P>And is it EVER ok for a WS to say NO? You wanted to cuddle. Maybe he just DIDN'T....do you have to turn it into some huge rejection? <P>So just cuz he didn't want to cuddle you rag on him about e-mails and counseling and money??? Geez. <P>Just because you didn't get what YOU wanted.<P>So just keep on pushing...think you'll get what you want?<P>

Okay...I'm gonna have to go out on a limb and agree w/ Sad_n_Lonely on this one...<P>We gotta quit pushing...yet we have to set boundaries...that is the double-edged sword...<P>ONLY YOU can MAKE YOU feel bad...it is your reaction to what is said and what is done that determines how you feel...<P>The books, <I>The Mastery of Love</I> and <I>The Four Agreements</I> are helping me live my life in truth...without drama and suffering...<P>We [humankind] create all our own drama and suffering...oh it is too much to explain in just a few words...but basically when you allow another to own your feelings and give them the 'care' of you...they are bound to let you down...you take care of you best...<P>ENJOY BEING WITH THEM...when and how they let you...APPRECIATE WHAT THEY DO FOR YOU...no matter how little..<P>My H said to me, just a little over a year ago on my birthday, that he was trying to love me like he thought I wanted him to...that is the problem w/ us humans...we give each other love like we think they want us to OR like we would want to be loved...we put strings and conditions...instead of just LOVING...<P>If you are readers and can get the books they are by don Miguel Ruiz...he also has a website... <A HREF="http://www.miguelruiz.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.miguelruiz.com</A> <P>The stuff has helped my psyche immensely...am I totally 'cured.' Heck no...it is a one day, one hour, one minute at a time proposition...but I am committed to changing and to my own personal happiness...<P>That may happen w/ or w/out my H...another edge to the sword...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Thanks Louser,<P>All I can say - is it hurts - yes it is uncanny how the symptoms our WS show - <P>Time to call Steve - I told H before I went on business trip, I was calling to make appointment when I got back - he seems worse, not better, than when I left.<P>I was afraid he would not miss me - guess it proves me right. after shock

It seems to me like you set up this homecoming as a big test.<P>And of course he failed, cuz somehow he would no matter what. I'm not sure what you expected.<P>So now you get to feel sorry for yourself, and its all his fault. Think thats going to make him realize his love for you?<P>Cali made some excellent points. Why is your H totally responsible for your happiness? Why is that burden on him?

Maybe you should post this over in Recovery". You will probably get more helpful responses. <P>At some point in time the WS has to start meeting your needs your way. The affair has been over for a year so the fog has cleared has cleared hopefully Steve can help you get a plan for recovery going.<P><p>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited August 20, 2001).]

aftershock...<P>I wasn't placing BLAME on you...I don't want you to feel badly...nevertheless, for real change to occur between you and your H you have to CHANGE the old patterns...<P>S_n_L has posted to me...make myself irresistable to my H...so that is what I have set out to do...to become the OW at home, if you will...<P>Look at what draws WS to OP...listening w/out fault...accepting w/out negating...just being there...<P>I have to admit that it started out as a bit of a 'competition,' but you know what...I started to remember even more deeply what drew me to H in the first place and I hope that I am being more of the Cali that he was drawn to...I know that he is talking a bit more to me...but I can feel him waiting for the other shoe to drop...before he says I love you...or tells me that he is staying...whatever...it may be a long time...he has to feel certain that my changes are permanent...plus he said he loved another...he must be doubting that he even knows what love is...and that if he could say the words so freely to someone else...how much are they really worth???<P>My listening ears are on aftershock...email me, if necessary...InShockInCali@excite.com<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

lexxxy,<P>Thanks for the honesty, even though you are coming from the WS camp - your words really made me think.<P>But, the position in MB is about marriages.<P>A marriage should be about love, trust, etc. My H is not living up to any marriage vow. The bible even says that the H is to give himself to his W, and his W is to give herself to her H. I always thought I had a "Perfect" marriage, then to get slapped with an EA. I went through his withdrawal, fog, anger. I've seen an entirely different man than the man I married.<P>He is the one that is making choices - decisions - about how he wants his marriage, relationship to me. I just get the feeling how can he really care about me, when he treats me like dirt. I'm giving the 150%, I'm the one that has changed two-fold for the better, I'm the one that gives all the affection.<P>You are right - he doesn't want to give me affection, attention, love, SF - and he is the one that is directly responsible for changing his marriage - and it is not for the better in this case.<P>We had 5 years of neglect, I have endured 19 months of not making love, I have had 14 months of his viewpoint that he does not want to make love to me. <P>The big question remains - do they really love you - when they go out and have either an EA or PA. Could my H have really loved me when he was sending relationship cards to OW, or spending money on flowers, or telephone calls - when he could hardly afford it (I won't get into the financial situation), or telling her he loved her on AOL Instant Messenger (I walked in and saw the words directly on the screen), I saw them together for three days in MY HOUSE - and the way he treated me - wanting to go for walks with her with our dogs, and NEVER asking me - sitting on the couches in personal space - right in front of me - I KNEW what was going on - I am not stupid.<P>I have never given him any reason to doubt my love, I would never cheat on him, I have adored him for 15 years, and this is the payback I get. The payback for paying off all his credit cards 15 years ago, working, working, working.<P>It is a sorry state of affairs to live without love from the person you married, that you promised to love, honor, and obey. And to have them go outside the marriage to tell someone else they love them (in the exact same way you told them 15 years ago - you loved them - my love words to the OW - he said my love words to that b**ch.<P>I agree with you - everything you said is true - maybe he doesn't feel like doing those things. But he is directly influencing if he wants me around for the rest of his life - he doesn't want me to leave - he wants me to sleep next to him, because we've been in the same bed for the past 14 months except for the business trips.<P>Maybe its time to start packing.

Please don't make any decisions until after your session w/ Steve...Is it going to be a joint session w/ your H?<P>Has he read books? Is he committed to saving marriage using MB principles?<P>Have you sat down and had a calm discussion w/no LB's or crying about SF? Why isn't he? Why can't he? Are you sure it is not physical? Has he seen a dr. recently? Make no assumptions about what is really going on...ask him...quietly, calmly....he probably won't believe that you can talk to him w/out getting upset...you will have to prove it to him...<P>Maybe write him a letter...there is more to this story than what is on the surface...<P>Cali

Oh, my . . . . . . . <P>To everyone who responded - Cali, Lexxxy, KalGrl, etc. -<P>We are here to try and save our marriages - when I was gone for 2 weeks - I knew how it would be when I got home - I knew that he would feel/be distant - when I never received any e-mail from him telling me he missed me - he e-mailed about questions, etc. about stuff in the house - I had contact with him - but <P>the fact remains he does not feel the same about me that he did back in 1986. . . how he loved me for all those years as his wife, and the eventual falling off 6 years ago, the neglect, etc. Even though I still loved him, I thought he loved me. I don't know if I'm right about this, but I think he still loves the OW. <P>If someone loves someone - they don't treat them like this . . . . I don't treat him like dirt.<P>The only affection I get from him is our cuddle at night - and that is only habit that started last August.<P>I'm ready to give up.

Ummmmm. going to step out here and get blasted (I'm sure) but Aftershock..... here is what I see. <P>1. Your H is home with you and he is 'perform' family functions. Would he do these things if he were living elsewhere? So are they to be classified as meeting your personal needs? Only you can answer those questions. <P>2. Now to your H: Does he think he is meeting your personal needs? Does he know or want to acknowledge what your personal needs are?<P>3. Now to all the rest of us (here is where the whopper may come): Do you all think that household duties (while appreciated) are really meeting personal needs? I agree they meet family needs but personal needs? Hm..... some here seem to think that because family needs are being met the BS needs to take those tidbits and be satisfied. Are the Ws's satisfied with family needs being met? I thought the big WS gripe was that THEIR personal neesd weren't met and that justify's the A? Hm........<P>Hey just thinking again and will probably get Ws wopped again. <P>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 20, 2001).]

Cali,<P>I've given him lots of love cards, I've written, written, written letter after letter. When he's written me, it is nothing but negative - you should see the love cards he use to send me back in 1986, 1987, and even in 1997, when he was away for three months - I can even show you in person. <P>I have a banker's box of love cards - I got upset one night and dragged the box out, and read him love passages - <P>You should have been there when he use to cry - because he had to leave me for a trip where he would be gone for a couple or three months. The love he professed, how he would love me forever - same old love song. How the first 10 years of our life was love. We made love, and love, and love, and even when I was pregnant with our daughters, and I had a FAT BELLY, how we still made love every night.<P>Now, he doesn't want sex - he's not interested.<P>He's read SAA, and has HNHN. We discussed last night, how his dad would make him mow the lawn and how he would hate mowing - but if he did it on his own he didn't mind - same thing - he feels the same - pressure that he has to read HNHN. He hasn't hardly touched it in a month - I'm the one reading all the time - all the books - I just got Power of a Praying Wife - hoping that would help me.<P>Thing is he is killing our marriage. It is his direct involvement to do this. Since I'm the BS, I'm giving the 150%, he gives little - in his own way - he shows me by doing things around the house - helping with laundry. But his attention is tied up on the computer, he comes home from work, and he goes to the computer, and stays on it, I'll come sit by him, but he tunnels at the computer, hardly acknowledging that I am there.<P>I guess this is just the way he wants it - I guess he just wants to keep hurting his wife, and his daughters, and reject my affection.<P>Like I said, I'm getting the picture, that it is time to move on - if he doesn't love me - he doesn't love me, and why should I stick around to be treated like his door mat. <P>I am getting tired of trying to keep this marriage together. What more can I do? I've planned A, I've LBed back before MB principles, now I know - so I completely take everything differently than my last summer's blow ups. But I can't go on too much longer, with his indifference, non affection, non love, no SF. He doesn't treat me like his wife - all I am is a woman in a house, taking care of the kids, doing the laundry, cooking. And dying inside, because my marriage is dead.

We signed a Marital Recovery Agreement on July 13th.<P>Nothing much changed for my 5 needs - my first is affection, my third is SF. Yet, I rearranged the kitchen counters, cleaned them all up, cleaned up the laundry room, and the living room, and threw away alot of paper, worked in our computer/office. One of his EN's is domestic support - I could have done better - but my emotional state is limiting to my production - he had my cushions fixed, my car painted (decided on these financial things alone while I was gone). I have worked on his EN's - I've not received any support on my EN's. <P>It just seems for the past 14 months since D-day, he's been distant, aloof, we started doing some family stuff.<P>Like I said, how much longer do I go on without Affection, Sexual Fulfillment. Conversation is there, but recreation is not. His recreation is the computer - my recreation is reading right now to try and figure out why. Why would he be so weak to accept the advances of OW - her cards, telephone calls - and invite her into our home when he knew she was in love with him - and . . . he fell in love with her -<P>so what is left? <P>He'll only regret the way it is when I'm gone - and that's not too far around the corner.

Put a password on the computers so he can't get on them when he comes home. I can help you with that if you want. Start making it harder for him to ignore you. Take away his toys for awhile. Don't enable him.<P> In my opinion you have made all the threats about leaving. How long has he heard this? The reason I bring it up is that if you have said it enough times and haven't done it then why should he believe you? I won't say to leave your H but you must either do that or STOP saying it.<P> I would suggest thinking about Plan B or seperation. No one can/should expect to have only cuddles in a marriage. I could see it for maybe a couple of months but 14, 19, longer...no way lady. You deserve much more than that. No marriage should be without affection for this long, not to mention SF.<P> Now considering where I am in my own marriage I probably should be the last person giving advice. But....your story breaks my heart.<P> jdmac1<p>[This message has been edited by jdmac1 (edited August 20, 2001).]

breaks mine, too....<P>I don't know if you have posted so much about yourself aftershock...all that you have written has given me a better perspective....<P>My H has said the same...the more I push, the more he withdraws...<P>It really is up to you, aftershock...I don't know what else to say...Power of a Praying Wife helped me...but then I started to wonder if he would pray for me in the same way...<P>I wonder why WS's say if we (BS's) had had an affair they would have just let us walk? <P>I am a firm believer that Steve can help...he's the professional in all this...we are just amateurs... ...<P>As for living 14 months without SF...you are a strong woman...especially if it is your #3 need...I don't think I could go 1 month...and haven't ever had to...well except the six weeks after having a baby... ...<P>Why does H say he can't? or won't have sex with you? Has he seen a dr? Could it be something physical?<P>Cali

Cali,<BR>It's worse than that - actually 19 months since SF - February 2000. Before that maybe 3 times during the period June 1997 to February 2000. Before that - maybe 10 times between March 1995 and June 1997 - could have been alot less - probably was.<P>What I've been saying is true. I just figured out after posting this thread is that I believe his 2nd EN is Domestic Support - he helps around the house - but that is because it is his EN. Is it really showing me that he cares? We moved in June 1997, he ordered the internet very soon after - either right then, or in July - then he proceeded to spend all his spare time on the internet - at night, on weekends. If he wasn't working. We watched a little TV together, I asked him to go for walks with the kids, after dinner. For the next three years, we never did go on any walks, and limited family outings - it wasn't important to him. I did not support him, going to see him at work functions because it was way too humid, especially for kids, and the bugs bit like mad - very uncomfortable. So everytime he had a job, we stayed home. I got involved in non-profit org work, and went to alot of meetings. I took some classes from 1995, and in 1997 - I am 15 classes away from my BA - which if I'd been smart - back when my emotional and mental condition was better I would have gone to school to complete my degree - now I'm in the position of 2 kids, and no degree; and a crummy career field to boot that I have no desire to go back to even though I was making $33,000 before I left.<P>About the threats - on Nov 9th I was ready to leave - the only thing I can do at this point is contact my parents to come home until I can get a job. I don't keep threatening - I'm just frustrated that he won't and doesn't love me as a husband should love a wife. He always gives anyone else the benefit of the doubt - but when it comes to my viewpoint he has always made disrespectful judgments that I am in the wrong. He doesn't back me up. Too long to get into here.<P>I'm not perfect, I know it, all I know is that I need someone to love me, I thought I'd found my life mate back in 1986. Our love story was so funny, little did I know we would turn into this tradegy. He just doesn't seem to want to try - my trip was only the icing on the cake. I didn't get any fuzzy from him while I was gone (like we use to), even when he goes on trips - when we were first married he would call, and both of us never wanted to get off the phone - just to know that the other was connected on the other side of the line.<P>Okay, somewhere along the line it has changed - my return home - the sentiments in the house changed none, as they were exactly the same when I left on August 4. I am sorry he is hurting from his muscle/nerve thing - but if a man wanted to be a husband, this would not prevent him from doing what he wanted to do.<P>I am sorry to say, I've been broken up all day over posting this - my eyes are red from crying - yet wiping away the tears so the girls do not see me. Been thinking the action to take - it is not like this came on all of a sudden - since he claims this has been coming on all along since 1995 (which I don't see because of all the love cards and love words he wrote) , yet later his tune changed, after the fog started wearing off.<P>The fact is I need to leave to repair this damage in my heart and soul. So, I am looking at contacting employment agencies in the city I plan to move to. I am tired of trying to get him to love me again. I guess it is time to start packing to go. This has been going on for 6 years, he just never told me, until the EA happened - which he lied profusely about - and I had to catch him red handed. I can't believe that all of them can be so down and dirty about this stuff. I'm dealing with the pain of the EA since June 2000, and the pain of limited SF since 1995. And then finding out June 2000, d-day the pain of dealing with him. It is all him - he admits that. In June 2000, he told me he was not interested in sex. I have poured my heart, my love into him even since the EA (can one believe), only MB was able to teach me why. I still cannot believe he was so weak to fall - that his marriage vow between us wasn't stronger. He doesn't want me to leave, he wants me to sleep in our bed, yet he is not willing to extend himself to give me any affection whatsoever. We went to counseling from Oct to Dec. I found another counselor that would take us for 1/2 the fee, and twice a month - he didn't want to devote the time to it. Call Steve? would it really help? He knows about the 4 rules, POJA, Marital Recovery Agreement, EN's, etc. He's read SAA, won't get into HNHN, I think he's in the second chapter or so, but has hardly picked it up - he'd rather play on the computer on his precious no where e-mails from e-solicitors that mean squat, or respond to consumer questionnaires - at least that is when I can get him home - because he doesn't come home from his job until 7:30 or 8 pm - most nights. And he's been doing that since about 1992. I have usually been the one to call him at work to find out a ball park when he'll be home. He chooses to stay at work rather than come home. So he really doesn't care about coming home, or loving a wife - AND its TIME I wake up and realize what has been going on all these years, since about the 6-7th year of our marriage.<P>Wake up - he doesn't care - and I've been subjected to the abuse of neglect. I won't even go into the financial picture.<P>If I stay it will be a miracle. <P>I just know he doesn't care - why stay around for a few more years. If he loved me he would break down a door to be with me, I just have to come to the realization he didn't break down any doors, I always had to open them for him. My crime was loving him. Our crime was acquiring stuff - meaningless - that now I have no place for. Stuff I don't care about that much.

AFTERSHOCK<P>How are you? I've missed you and been worried about you. Well, it sounds like things are going as well as for you as they are for me. <P>My H has been still giving me 1/2 truths. We've both been to counseling and even the counselor told him he keeps lying and that we're not going to get better until he is completely honest with me and what the A was all about.<P>He's also been very angry at himself about the A and last week I ended up on the bedroom floor and he broke his hand. He didn't lay a hand on me but it was close. I asked him to leave so he lived at Motel 6 for a few days. He would call home crying and said he was sorry. I told him he can't live her if he is going to be angry.....<P>It's been really bad lately. I thought after almost six months we would be getting better but we have really bad LB days and I say VERY NASTY things to him about the OW. I tell him to go and be intimate with her....and it pis_es him<BR>off and he gets angry. But...the therapist told him that I have alot of anger in me and it needs to come out and if he can't handle it he should leave. Well, he's trying harder now...because I told him next time he can leave and go live with his parents and tell them about his love A!!<P>Please write back...I've missed you. I'm working full-time now and slowly thinking of becoming VERY independent if you know what I mean here.<P>I think of you always....take care and stay strong.<BR>Your H needs to really TELL you how he feels. My H never opened up to me about his feelings until after the A and now he tells me how he feels and what helikes and doesn't like. He never used to be that way. Somehow men don't really express their feelings. I keep asking him questions about the A...and somedays he gives me half truths and this is killing me.<P>We are still struggling and I've talked about separation but I know it would just kill my two daughters if we did that.<P><BR>SHOCKER17<P>TAKE CARE....

Can't talk long. Just wanted you to know I'm praying, praying, praying for you after shock! Hang on, woman! God's help is near...

aftershock I gotta wonder, it sure sounds like he is still involved with ow, you said something about ea, but your posts sound like pa too. Cali has given good advice, and far be it for me to assess you...but you have a flavor of expectation, quid pro quo, re his behavioiur. Have you truly given up expectations?, just been the best you you can be? Let him freely choose his behaviour, and freely choose you? If so, you may have to seperate to see whether you really no longer fit. Just so maybe you won't feel so bad, my w and I have had problems for decades, we only made love a dozen times or so in last five years, and I slept in a different bedroom as well. I had no ow until a year ago, this was just about us and emotional withdrawal. I am a man who has no interest in physical sex, it is all emotional/psychological for me. Sex was the last thing to go, as we came apart, but go it did. If your husband is the same, and if the ow is out of the picture, then the answer may be that simple, he feels disconnected from you, if so, it will take time, but it will come back.....but not as long as you expect it in any way, it has to be freely given to someone you emotionally trust (well for some of us anyways).