It is obvious that there are many ways for one to make the transition from the person standing at the Altar, new ring on the finger and a set of solemn vows in her heart to falling for someone else, letting someone else in where before no one else's shoes were fit to tread? How did we get there? WS, did you just decide one day that you'd had enough of your spouse and would let an affair happen? DId you actively seek it out? Or did it kind of happen gradually, somewhat innocently at first? <P>What was it that made you <I>break</I> the day you did with the OM/OW?<P>Did you fully understand your reasons for your actions afterwards?<P>Two years after D-Day I am still trying to peice it all together. My H asked me "why" and to this day I have never fully been able to get to the nitty gritty of Why. I want to know if anyone else out there has figured this out for themsleves, or can enlighten me any better? <P>This is embarrassing to admit for me, so spare me creative and well thought questions like "well, silly, why CAN'T you figure it out, it was your body involved, wasn't it??" <P>Khyra

Not sure how long you've been married....but I'll take a stab at your question.<P>You reached a 'barren' or dry season in your life....or marriage. You saw little signs a long the way...but were to preoccupied to really do anything about it...so you probably dismissed it in your mind.<P>After awhile...you begin to sense the dryness...and the thirst of your empy heart and soul...a longing...begins to nag you from within. You try finding that 'well' you committed to drinking from...but it seems out of reach...or perhaps empty. And you continue on in your journey of life. <P>For many of us....we weren't 'looking' for someone else. We just stumbled across them. They were like small droplets of water...that seemed so innocent...and needed at the time. We tasted....not thinking anything bad could come of it. And my...how wonderful and refreshing it tasted. And there were more droplets...small puddles...which grew into s small pond or lake. <P>The next thing you know...in the middle of this vast wasteland, you found an oasis in another person. And you don't know how to stop drinking. This new person...makes you feel so alive...so renewed...so ....special and needed.<P>Simply said....they become a 'need' that taste deliscious.<P>But before long...you come to your senses and realize that you will die in this place. It is not healthy for you. You agree...to seperate and find your way home. But it is hard to find the road back. You start out...and come across more wasteland...and all you can think about or remember is how wonderful it was at that oasis you came across.<P>Your mind...heart...soul...scream and plead with you to go back...that you will die for sure if you leave it.<P>And you know deep within...that you never meant to end up in this place. It is scary...frightening...because you never thought it would happen to you.<P>The journy home is not an easy one. I know. I am still trying.

Lighthouse, I would say you have captured what so many of us (WS) believed. Pre and post fog. Not only do you realize that the oasis you have found isn't good for you, that you will die there. Your road back is full of guilt, anger at yourself. The easiest thing to do Khyra is to go back and jump back into the water. But doing that puts you right back where you know you shouldn't be. The truth is, the right thing, is going back to that altar you made those vows, recommitting yourself to your marriage and making it work...that is a much bigger oasis, with more of what you need. The water is deeper, sweeter, and there's lots more of it for you to discover. It will take time to get back there, lighthouse you know, I know, but its there. Sometimes right over the next dune, but even if its not, you keep searching. <P>"The race is not given to the swift, neither to the strong, but to him/her that endureth to the end"

Khyra - As a BS, I can only provide an input from the other side. I accept responsibility for helping to create the environment that allowed my family's mess to occur. It will forever haunt me. I cannot blame this entirely on my wife. I would give anything to re-live the prelude in an attempt to cure me before it started.<P>WAT

From <I>The Mastery of Love </I> by don Miguel Ruiz:<P><I>When we go into a relationship, we become selfish because we are needy. It's all about me. We are so selfish that we want the person with whom we are sharing our life to be as needy as we are. We want "someone who needs me" in order to justify our existence, in order to feel that we have a reason to be alive. We think we are searching for love, but we are searching for "someone who needs me," someone we can control and manipulate.<P>There is a war of control in human relationships because we were domesticated to compete for the control of the situation. What we call love--someone who needs me, someone who cares about me--isn't love; it's selfishness. How can that work? Selfishness doesn't work because there is no love there. Both people are starving for love. In the sex they have, they taste a little love and it becomes addictive because they are starving for love. But then all the judgments are there. All the fear. All the blame. All the drama.<P>Then we search for advice on love and sex. So many books are written about it, and just about all these books could be called "How to Be Sexually Selfish." The intent is good, but where is the love? They are not about learning to love; there is nothing to learn about love. Everything is already there in our genes, in our nature. We don't have to learn anything, except what we invent in this world of illusion. We search for love outside ourselves when love is all around us. Love is everywhere, but we don't have the eyes to see. Our emotional body is no longer tuned to love.<P>We are so afraid to love because it isn't safe to love. The fear of rejections frightens us. We have to pretend to be what we are not; we try to be accepted by our partner when we don't accept ourselves. But the problem is not that our partner rejects us. The problem is that we reject ourselves, because we are not good enough, because that is what we BELIEVE.<P>Self-rejection is the main problem... </I><P>And when you withdraw emotionally from your partner and they from you and another person 'presents' themselves and you 'attach' to someone else...Ruiz has more about this attachment process...but I gotta make dinner for the family...<P>Peace,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I><p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited August 23, 2001).]

or<P>You give of yourself completely in your marriage see little signs of abuse along the way...but were to preoccupied to really do anything about it...and you probably dismissed it in your mind.<P>After awhile...you begin to sense the distance as you pour yourself into the marriage....a life of rejection from the one your giving yourself too pushes you away from the dock. as though your adrift in a boat attached to the dock by only a thin rope the more you pour yourself into the marraige the greater the swell becomes pushing you out to sea..soon your alone.. scanning the horizon for the dock youve commited yourself to.. seeing only the rope that binds you to it. sure that if you try just a little harder give just a little more you will be pulled back to the dock missed sure someone knows your out there.<P><BR>while desperatly looking for shore We stumbled across them. They were like small islands...that seemed so innocent...and needed at the time. We walk on the land....not thinking anything bad could come of it. And my...how wonderful and refreshing, solid, it feels. And the tide goes out and the island is uncoverd, revealing a paradise warm and welcoming. <P>The next thing you know...in the middle of ocean, you found an inviting home in another person. And you don't know how to leave. This new person...makes you feel so welcome, saved and alive.<P>Simply said....they become a 'need' that provides salvation.<P>But before long...you come to your senses and realize that you will die in this place. It is not healthy for you. You agree...to seperate and find your way home. But it is hard to find the road back. You start out...and come across more ocean and water...and all you can think about or remember is how wonderful it was at that island you came across.<P>Your mind...heart...soul...scream and plead with you to go back...that you will die for sure if you leave it.<P>And you know deep within...that you never meant to end up in this place. It is scary...frightening...because you never thought it would happen to you.<P>The journy home is not an easy one. I know. I am still trying.<P><BR>ok so its blatant plagerism so what shoot me! <P>

taken from what Chaz?<P>I believe that the new person feels like salvation...but...please look deeply at the idea of self-rejection...admiration of self...and self-respect...<P>IMHO...what we want from our spouses is what we are not able to give ourselves...<P>if we can't give it to ourselves...how can we 'receive' it from our spouses?<P>If I don't feel confident on the job...NO ONE can give confidence to me...it must come from inside me first...then with each success I feel more confidence...<P>In the beginning of relationships, we try to complete each other...but the human reality is that it would take too much expenditure of self to complete another...we must complete ourselves first...then we can love another freely...<P><I>To master a relationship is all about you. The first step is to become aware, to know that everyone dreams his own dream....Next, you become aware of the way you communicate your dream to others....Finally, if you are aware that no one else can make you happy, and that happiness is the result of love coming out of you, this becomes...the Mastery of Love. </I> (don Miguel Ruiz)<P>Peace,<BR>Cali

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustPlainCali:<BR><B>taken from what Chaz?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>uh from lighthouse this thread only minutes off the press!!!<P><BR>

oops...missed it...musta scrolled right on by....<BR> <P>Thanks...<P>Cali

Khyra,<BR>I don't think your question is silly at all...Quite frankly, if anyone had a blanket answer that would fit every situation, we'd solve the old infidelity question once and for all.<P>I had posted on another thread about the difference in how you see things at different ages. My world was pretty black and white at 20 when I married. There were a few more shades of gray at 30 when I divorced, but not many. I was a pretty indignant, sure of exactly what was right or wrong, little priss...much holier than thou or anyone! I was betrayed and the world in general, and my husband in particular, owed me big! And that led to being someone who could not forgive or even try to understand another's choice or mistakes. Any responsibilty I had to pre A marital discord was negated by his larger sin of betrayal.<P>Well, now I'm 45, standing in the same shoes I had on 15 years ago. Have made plenty of my own mistakes, and have experienced other's forgiveness, and also, refusal to forgive. Different partner, same problem,,,better find a different approach...and age is helpful..there aren't so many black and white areas anymore..life has taught me that. It's easy to drift down a road you never thought you'd travel. If you go down it twice, you'd better have a compass. <P>People change...such a silly little phrase, but it is true. Look at how you viewed the world and relationships/love at 16 and look now. Look at what you needed the day you were at the altar, and look at what you need now. Probably very different.<P>I really think people drift into situations that are sometimes too much to handle...maybe they could've a year ago, maybe they could tomorrow. But at the time it happens, for some reason, they just can't handle it and drift right in. I think some marriages occur because people drifted into them at a time when they really didn't know where else to take the relationship...I'm not saying they weren't in love, it's just that the time seemed right and the person seemed right, and the idea of marriage seemed right. I think marriages get in trouble when people drift apart...of course we all change as we age,<BR>but we don't necessarily change at the same pace. And, we're so busy noticing our own changes, we lose sight of the changes happening to the person laying next to us.<P>So, how did it happen? Well, I'm pretty certain no one ever says "gee, now would be a good time to be unfaithful, or golly, this person meets more of my 10 basic needs than my spouse, so I think I'll try this", and I'm relatively certain no one is walking around with a couple of lovebank account registers and comparing balances. But all those concepts were probably true in a subconscious way that started the tide...eventually you just drifted into something, and at that certain time, simply couldn't or wouldn't drift out.<P>Khyra, I know some will be upset with my analogy here as it seems as if there's no responsibility..and that's not what I intended to impart...Taking responsibility for your actions..the one's that led to the marital drift as well as the one's that led to the slide into infidelity...that's where maturation occurs. I guess an easier way to express all this is ....$hit happens, you just got to clean it up before you step in it again.<BR>T<p>[This message has been edited by Twyla (edited August 24, 2001).]

missingher....<P>Something you said struck a chord with me....about 'going back to the altar where you made the vows'....<P>There is a story in the New Testament...where Jesus's parents took him to Jerusalem for the passover when he was about 12. Upon their return home...they traveld nearly a whole day's journey before the discovered that Jesus was not with them in their traveling group of friends and such.<P>They ended up going back frantically to Jerusalem and found him in the Temple discussing scriptures with the leaders there.<P>What has always struck me about that story...was how his own Mother...of all people....could travel a whole day and not be aware that her son was not with them. If the very mother of Jesus...could absent-mindely leave him behind, then how many of us...are guilty of doing the same thing. And where did she find him again?...at the 'altar'..so to speak.<P>It happens in our relationship with God...and with our spouses. <BR>Not to get 'preachy' here...but in the book of Revelation, one of the churches was 'chastised' by the angel of the Lord because in spite of all the 'good things' they were doing, they had 'forsaken their first love'. They were told to 'repent...and go back and do the things they did at the begining. <P>Hmmmm...wonder if that is where Harley got his idea about restoring the love in marriages...go back...and do the things you did at first...with that 'love' of yours.<BR>? ? ?<P>

Light: what a fitting analogy. Very well described. Especailly the part about the Droplets of water, seeming innocent at first. That's getting pretty close to how it all begins. I thoughly enjoyed reading your post, and I thank you for helping me to shed some 'light' on the matter.<P>Missing: I've already jumped back into the water and swam to shore awhile back I'm very glad I did, now I am reflecting on just how I was able to allow myself to wander out to begin with. <P>WAT: Heartfelt words from you, as usual. I'm sorry it's been so long since I have replied to one of your posts. I sure hope things begin looking up for you soon - you are a wonderful, rare and unique man.<P>JPKali: Hey girl, thanks for the therapy Ruiz makes a LOT of sense, I am fitting his words to my situation still. Hope all is well with you, PS thanks for your post on In Recovery <P>Chaz: exactly - 'looking back to see only the rope that binds you' you hit it too, that's part of it.<BR> "Your mind...heart...soul...scream and plead with you to go back...that you will die for sure if you leave it." FUnny thing is, my H told me he was sure I'd be dead soon if I'd decided to stay where I was doing what I was doing at the time. We can never know for sure and I thought he was full of it when he said it, but now... it sends shivers down my spine to think... Again, I'm damned glad I'm back. I really appreciated your plag ..er.. post lol really I did <P>JPCali: "if we can't give it to ourselves...how can we 'receive' it from our spouses?" I believe that is what someone means when he says "you complete me." For example, there are days when I look in the mirror and despise what I see. With a kiss and a sweet comment from my H, he mysteriously makes the zits or the goofy hair or puffy eyes not matter so much anymore ... Not that I EVER <I>have</I> those afflictions ...<P>Twyla: Love your nik I have often thought that once there was more time between me and my actions I'd understand it all better. Everytime I say 'I don't get why I did this" I feel like a fool because it sounds like a cop-out. You know, the kind I have been known to try to point out to others... ugh. Anyway, I agree with you about age making a difference - you realize as you get older that you didn't know as much as you thought you did even 2 years ago. Thanks for your hard earned wisdom, Twyla. <P>I was hoping Lexxy might have something to say here, since she is so close to it all still (as in it's fresher in her mind). Don't know if she's gone off the board again tho... And SnL, where's your big nose in all of this, huh? lol<P>Khyra<BR> <P>

Well I pretty much keep my mouth shut when there are questions posted to the WS. Why? Because a few years ago I was the WS that left my husband and married the other man. Twyla I think sums up part of the reasons for my affair. Sad and lonely has made some very good points too. I first visited marriage builders and do still read some because I stumbled on the emotional needs section. My first thought was what great things were there and how I could apply them to my second marriage to keep it strong and never make the same mistakes that I made my first time around. In all honestly, I do not regret my marriage to my second husband and I love him with all of my heart, but I do and always will regret the way I handled getting out of my first marriage. In regards to Twyla's post....I agree with the age thing. I married the first time at the age of 21. He was my high school sweetheart and now 20 somthing years later from the time I met him I wish so bad that I would have been a "kid" instead of getting married to my one and only. It's really tough to get involved with one person at the age of 15-16 and never date another soul. We married when we had not experienced life and before we grew up. We just grew into adults that didn't fit well together at all. He wasn't a bad husband, there was no verbal/physical abuse....he just was not a man that I could spend my entire life with. He grew up to be a man that I would have never picked 15 years later. I know there are couples out there that meet young and marry and live forever happy together. But for me, it didn't work.

I am the BS. For us, my H had been taking me for granted and treating me with little honor or respect for a long time. I began to speak out about it. Then, I began to SCREAM out about it. I think my H lost all loving feelings for me. Here's where it gets interesting. In December of last year, my H's dad gave him a letter from an old high school girlfriend. This letter had been written 23 years earlier, and my H had NEVER seen it. My H's dad hung onto this letter for 23 YEARS! Well, I was upset by the letter, but my H acted like, it was a LONG time ago, so no big deal. Well two months into our separation, when I realized my H was having an affair, my H's sister said, "I wonder if the letter that my dad gave to Scott was from her." Guess what folks, IT WAS!!! So basically, my H got this old LOVE letter from a girl who was 16 at the time, and he had JUST broken up with her. This letter talked about how he was the love of her life. After thinking about that letter for 2 months, he looked her up. They started things up all over again, and I think where he is right now (even though he moved home 7 weeks ago) is I think he thinks she IS the love of his life. I HATE HIS DAD FOR THIS!! Of course, his dad has NO idea that this is who my H's OW is. I know if it hadn't been her, maybe it would have been someone else, but the two of them share something very painful...at 16, she was pregnant with his child. She had an abortion. Maybe part of this is he's trying to make it up to her??? Just writing this down right now, hurts me so badly, I want to cry.

I have been contemplating this Khyra, and I really liked lighthouse imagery. If I was smarter it is what I would have written, it was very very good. However, imagery is just imagery, and as you know I am compelled (maybe even obssesed) to understand the actual psychology involved, and to discover (as best I can) the fundamental assumptions re marriage and human bonding. So in no particular order (and stuff I have posted here and there) here are some more of my thoughts.<P>1. The basic driving force of human beings is survival. If it wasn't, your genes would have left the gene pool long ago, so this is true for us all (yes, Virginia, we indeed are all the same). We tend to think of this one-dimensionally, physical well-being....but that is not quite correct, there is a psychological component too, and if you mal-nourish it..... you die. We have empirical evidence for this, cause stress, depression, and unfulfilled (but physically comfortable) marriages lead to shorter lifespans....fascinating stuff when you approach human relationships from a scientific standpoint, and with survival as your filter. One may say...nah, I don't care about that, I believe XYZ, so I am motivated differently....well, maybe you are not human I dunno, but if you are, no one escapes their genetic programming. And it behooves all of us to understand the driving forces behind our so-called choice, "right" or "wrong" ones.<P>2. Saying love is a decision implies it makes no difference who you marry, that if you "religiously" apply MB type principles you will achieve a fulfilled marriage. One can skip dating alltogether, and just marry the next person off the MB aseembly line (say they start a school or something). Think of how much more efficient that would be, and wow... that elusive commodity.... a love GAURANTEE, no more anxiety, no more worries, secure forever in your spouses undying love for you. If only it were that simple. Our gut, and our empirical observations re human interactions reveal (IMO) it does make a difference who you marry....a HUGE difference. <P>3. I have quizzed Jennifer long and hard on this, and when pushed the Harley's will acknowledge, it does make a difference who you marry....but they hedge (hey they have an agenda too), and suggest yes, but you must have made that assessment so ARE married to the right person, and just need to clean up your acts. This is patently self-serving, cause it implies we will not make marital errors in mate selection (yet humans are capable of screwing up everything else we do, so how can that be?), not to mention the masks people wear, so often we don't even marry who we think we are marrying (and at young ages have very little skill or experience in pierceing those masks, interestingly those who have experience with previous marriages and/or failed relationships seem to do a better job at mate selection....duh). Not to mention our own self-deception, and not knowing who we are, then trying to "change" ourselves to meet someone elses image of who we need to be.<P>4. 1-3 gaurantee marital errors, lots of marital errors. One may ask, what is a marital error though, hey as long as no one is beating anyone, and remains faithful, any marriage can work.....well, yes....and no. That is the first point of departure in the social debate over marriage. On one side we have the absolutists (often religiously based) who say you get 1 chance, and that is it, no refunds. On the other side we have sociopaths who marry solely for how they benefit, and they are gone the instant the marriage no longer serves their needs. The rest of us are scattered in-between from one end to the other. Because we all draw the line at different places we are forever squabbling over what marriage is, and when we can leave it. <P>In the ignorance of youth, and irresponsibility of not doing my homework, and by default, I was a more or less absolutist by default, it was the ethic I was raised with. Realizing now that marriage is a complex interpersonal condition, and has very real impact on the drive to survive, I have applied myself vigorously to understanding all the components of (as best I can) marriage, so I can figure out what the heck I am supposed to do (and be reasonably comfortable I am making choices consistent with who I am, and not some picture of who I think I should, or want to be). So how does one assess this? It ain't easy, that is for sure. But IMO happy is not a 4-letter word. It is the label we apply to our psychological health. It is in part influenced by our internal filters, so of course, if our filters are messed up, we may be happy for the wrong reasons, which leads me (all of us) to conclude that it is in our best interest to see reality checks too from our peers. This sounds complicated, and it is, as many of you know. We tend to careen through life, being essentially reactive, then some life altering event occurs (wakes us up), and we start becoming proactive and contemplating all this stuff. We try to uncover who we are, and what happy really means.<P>5. So what is an affair? I think I now know. It is not any one thing, but can be maybe boiled down to 2 things. It is either the selfish (in the true sense of selfish) act of someone with a personality disorder (of many differnt kinds), a person who by definition is incapable of making marital type committments (and yes, many of these people are nice, likable, decent human beings, not monsters, some of you are married to them), and seeks only to meet their needs, Such people should never marry, and they will have serial affairs. The other group, for one reason or another, feels (even if they don't articulate it to themselves) they are dieing in their marriage. Their affairs arise out of emotional survival, they literally believe they are dieing, and the op will save them (and vice versa)....lighthouse's imagery. The only successful way to deal with that, is to uncover why they feel that way, coupled with convincing them such is not the case.....aka as plan A. Maybe, just maybe, plan A intervention will provide the relief, the ws needs to reconsider their affair choice (which is also subject to the same survival assessment the marriage is, but is clouded, cause no history yet, and hope springs eternal, another human characteristic). Discovery, or the continuing breakdown of the marriage (whether other spouse knows or not) precipitates the crisis...it is not a crisis of conscience, not the remorseful I am so sorry the bs hope for, it is not that at all, it is a crisis of survival. Because the ws has to choose, the risk of loss, coupled with the protestations of spouse that they will change, is usally enough to stop the affair....for a time. But the issues do not go away, and will not be solved with guilt, or remorse, they will only be resolved with an in-depth understanding that both choose the marriage. Many times the individuals can and do "love" each other sufficiently well to meet the standard of "happy"....but other times they won't, and you have the painful reality of living with someone who cares about you, and is ethical, so stays, but doesn't really want to be there. Or you get to be that person, and wake-up everyday next to someone you don't want to hurt, can't really bear hurting, but who can never make you happy in that special way one who fits you will. You look ahead to years, decades of denying the truths of your feelings, and wonder how you can ever do that. But again, Harley makes sense. He requires radical honesty, and if such exists in a marriage, most of the time, after the work is done, people can divorce amicably, realizing the marriage is not going to "work". This is really annoying usually, cause most often one of the partners thinks it could work, or is willing to settle for less, or is not as willing to fix something, a lot of things....but the point is...a marriage must be the enthusiastic desire of both parties, or it should end (cause it doesn't really exist anyways, is just an accomodation, more like roomates). This is the risk you take when you marry someone, that they may come to a point they no longer want to be there, and there is no way to fix it, that only leaves sacrificial marriage (aka vows) which does not work (ie someone, or both, is unhappy, and suffers the physiological consequences of that unhappiness. People often take great umbrage at this point, saying life is not about happy blah blah blah...they are wrong. The question one needs to ask, is do I want my spouse to stay with me if they don't want to be here. Is really a simple concept, but people avoid it like the plague, instead going to great lengths to convince each other to "feel" differently..... something we know is impossible. Then we say feelings don't count, that is also absurd, we have feelings cause they are essential in guiding our actions. It is impossible to live life by pure reason....right? <P>There is more Khyra, lots more, but I must get going, maybe will add to it later, but the answer to your question about what happens is simple....it is about survival, and that is why it is so powerful, and so confusing. I know when I chose to continue with the ow (when I could no longer deny to myself I loved her), how I felt, a lot of stuff was going on, but the dominant emotion was I wanted to live, and as well, I wanted to save her too. That is why I have no remorse or regrets re the love, it was for the right reasons.....my regret is that others were hurt, but I can live with that cause I understand that is the risk we take when we marry, that it might not work, it is one of the more unplesant realities of life, but it is not evil. My goal was not to hurt anyone, but I cannot and will not let myself be the source of someone else's happiness or well-being. We are each responsible for our own well-being, and are expected to act on it. If someone truly loves their spouse, they would not be angry about an affair, or their spouse choosing another, IF that is truly what their spouse needs. My wife has asked me how I would feel, I knew long ago, even while dating, that I never wanted anyone who did not want me 100%. I told her if she thought the marriage was not working, and needed someone else, I would help her find them and let her go with my blessing. I do not believe in owning, or oweing someone. She owes me nothing for 23 years of marriage, I gave it to her freely, she can do with it as she will. My regret over the affair, is the unhappiness it has caused my wife, and my failure was in not telling her first I no longer wanted to be married. But I do not regret the capacity to be able to love.

The below quoted by sadnlonely caused my jaw to hit the floor. It is as if it were my husband's life in his first marriage. He said his respect for her was gone as soon as she told him she'd be willing to settle in a marriage where he didn't love her and was not happy. After more discussions she did state that deep down that was not what she really wanted and they did eventually divorce.<P>Discovery, or the continuing breakdown of the marriage (whether other spouse knows or not) precipitates<BR>the crisis...it is not a crisis of conscience, not the remorseful I am so sorry the bs hope for, it is not that at all, it is a crisis of survival. Because the ws has to choose, the risk of loss, coupled with the protestations of spouse that they will change, is usally enough to stop the affair....for a time. But the issues do not go<BR>away, and will not be solved with guilt, or remorse, they will only be resolved with an in-depth understanding that both choose the marriage. Many times the individuals can and do "love" each other sufficiently well to meet the standard of "happy"....but other times they won't, and you have the painful reality of living with someone who cares about you, and is ethical, so stays, but doesn't really want to be there. Or you get to be that person, and wake-up everyday next to someone you don't want to hurt, can't really bear hurting, but who can never make you happy in that special way one who fits you will. You look ahead to years,<BR>decades of denying the truths of your feelings, and wonder how you can ever do that. But again, Harley makes sense. He requires radical honesty, and if such exists in a marriage, most of the time,after the work is done, people can divorce amicably, realizing the marriage is not going to "work". This is really annoying usually, cause most often one of the partners thinks it could work, or is willing to settle for less, or is not as willing to fix something, a lot<BR>of things....but the point is...a marriage must be the enthusiastic desire of both parties, or it should end (cause it doesn't really exist anyways, is just an accomodation, more like roomates). This is the risk you take when you marry someone, that they may come to a point they no longer want to be there, and there is no way to fix it, that only leaves sacrificial marriage (aka vows)which does not work (ie someone, or both, is unhappy, and suffers the physiological consequences of that unhappiness.<BR>People often take great umbrage at this point, saying life is not about happy blah blah blah...they are wrong. The question one needs to ask, is do I want my spouse to stay with me if they don't want to be here. Is really a simple concept, but people avoid it like the plague, instead going to great lengths to convince each other to "feel" differently..... something we know is impossible. Then we say feelings don't count, that is also absurd,we have feelings cause they are essential in guiding our actions.<BR>It is impossible to live life by pure reason....right? <P>

snl...<P>Quite an essay here you wrote! We share a common drive to understand how we got in this place. Interestingly...you seem consummed with the psychological aspect...and I think I'm wired more in the emotional vein. Nothing wrong with either. <P>But...I would have to say...IMHO ...that the component we are overlooking...has to do with the "spiritual" element.<P>I believe God created us as spiritual beings. His intentions were for there to be a relationship with him on a spiritual level. Yet...he gave us emotions and placed us in a physical body. If the spiritual aspect stayed "in tune" with Him...everything else would sort of 'hum along' nicely. But "sin" messed that harmony up.<P>I believe that all humans...are born into this world with a 'defect'. Because of our sinful nature, inherited of course, we were seperated from God. That part of us...deep within...that only God could fill...was left void.<P>Human nature, being what it is...is consumed with filling that void. That need to be loved....REALLY loved...can only be met by God Himself. But we search high and low trying to fill that void through every imagineable avenue. If we are not careful, we can even expect or depend on our spouses to meet that need. And they cannot.<P>A close study of the scriptures reveal that Jesus came...to serve....not BE served. And he demonstrated this by the love he showed...a love...that is geared for 'giving'.<P>Then...he instructed his followers that they were to love one another in the same way he had demonstrated. And added that we could only do this if enabled by the power of his Holy Spirit.<P>I don't believe we can truly love in this manner...until we recognize and know for sure...that we ARE loved by our creator. It is only with this assurance that enables us to then go...and love others the way He desires us to.<P>I heard recently about how the divorce rate among orthodox Jews is about 1% or less. And these consist of arranged marriages. Yet...they have been taught all their lives...that marriage is about ...serving..and giving...not getting needs met. <P>We've all heard the song that some writer sang years ago. He was right on when he sang about "looking for love in all the wrong places'. Even Mick Jagger about how he couldn't "get no satisfaction". <P>One thing I know....nothing...in this world will ever satisfy nor fill the void in our lives....that only God himself can fill. No matter how hard we try.<P>End of sermon! <p>[This message has been edited by lighthouse (edited August 24, 2001).]

Amen, Lighthouse...Amen...<P>You wrote what is so close to what Ruiz writes about...that we must first love ourselves...and that love comes from God...<P>Then we give that love, we practice that love...and practice and give...and give and practice...<P>Then we are happy...<P>Now here's the rub...humans also analyze how much love they think they are getting...if they feel that the other person isn't doing it like them...or isn't doing it right...or enough...instead of just enjoying being with the other person...enjoying the gifts of that person...then more dissatisfaction...<P>If you can't find love in yourself...you don't see that you are getting the 'right' kind of love from someone else...you feel empty...so that when another shows interest or you click in some way...it fills you up in a way that you desperately feel you need....but it is false...<P>It is false because you have to love yourself...and you can't fault the love another gives you...after time we are all doomed not to 'love' another correctly...it is our human condition...<P>It is up to us to change our mindsets...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>