Have any of you ever got to a point that you couldn't even begin to communicate verbally what you are thinking... because you don't even know how to put it into words? Well, that's where I am, where I've been for weeks.. months. Too long for certain. I need to get out of this "stuck" place badly as it is wearing very thin.<P>I guess this is where I add a brief history.<BR>I am the WS, DDay was 2+ years ago. Initial shock and anger, went to counseling that accomplished nothing. I have repeatedly communicated to H (quite clearly and spelled out) what is missing or needed changed in this marriage (bad marriage before affair ever began), but H has really made no changes whatsoever on the big issues. <BR>No intimacy between us, which H pushes for and pouts/angers over almost daily. I don't feel I am anywhere near that "intimacy level" as H hasn't really shown he wants to meet any of my needs. His pushing for intimacy daily of course is a HUGE LB, but he fails to see this and pouts/angers even more. That's a vicious circle as you can see.<P>For a few months earlier this year H attempted to do Plan A with me.. but he was doing Plan A things that met HIS needs, not mine. Even when I would clearly point out that those things were rather meaningless to me, he would continue them (LB!).. or stop them and not attempt to meet any that were valid to me. And then, of course, pout/anger over my lack of response to them (translation: sex). <P>Now for the past 1 1/2 months, H has apparently stopped all Plan A'ing, doesn't care to participate in anything at home other than parenting, demonstrates zero desire to meet any of my needs, has become more and more selfish, doesn't help one bit in anything domestic. Yet, he continues to push daily for intimacy and then pouts and walks away. <BR>We've had discussions about my hoping to be able to return to the intimacy level, but it's not going to *poof* magically return without a reason for me to feel close like that again.<P>He really doesn't get it (or maybe I don't. At this point in time I'm so very confused I don't even know my own opinions anymore). He blames the affair for most of the problems, while the affair happened because I was so tired of saying over and over how things needed to be worked on and got no response. I felt hopeless, abandoned, alone .. and well, made the wrong choice obviously. <P>I am feeling again, very alone in things. He isn't working toward any kind of goals, ignores my deep big ENs, other than "reestablish intimacy" That is truly the only thing that seems to matter to him. Is that a guy thing? (I should add here that he said himself that is why he got married) Can he possibly be that one dimensional? Early in our marriage when intimacy was at all time high, he still didn't attempt to meet any of my EN, and I would say in fact that many of them he tried to make sure that I couldn't fulfill them by being very controlling.<P>He tells me now that I am being (yet again) manipulative and it makes me feel guilty for asking for my EN to be filled and unsure of my needs and their validity (apparently he thinks i have been forever manipulative, while I think that he has been forever controlling- I lost all self-esteem and self-confidence until I broke the cycle with affair. Now I feel that creeping back again.) <P>OMG I'm so confused on what to do anymore, who is being controlling, who is being manipulative. I'm so tired of everything I say being turned around to meet his need, of him making up little stories to fill in missing blanks of anything I do or say. He twists and turns around anything said or done and throws it back ... it's just so frustrating.<P>Thanks for reading my novel.. I just need to find some clarity of mind. I just can't seem to be able to think clearly anymore about any of this.<P>Kind words appreciated.<BR>

Ya know, I was about to start a really angry thread (i am the still angry BS), but reading your post, I can understand your confusion and your pain. If I were you, I think a bit of a break might be in order...no not separation, but maybe a weekend retreat with other women, or a couple of days at a relatives house and then regroup. He is hurt. He is in so much pain. He doesn't know how to deal with it either. Please give him a break and give yourself a break. Stop and think about the future and what you want. And try to factor in what he wants. And try to reach some kind of comprimise?? I feel so inadequate giving advise given my own situation, but understand, I am really sorry for the pain you are feeling now. Try to do something that will heal your soul and wellbeing... What makes you happy? What makes you feel like you have accomplished something? Do it! I'm here to listen if you want...

Thank you for your reply, another owl! Didn't think anyone would still be awake.<BR>You know what bothers me the most is wondering if I'm wrong in thinking that he's controlling as he insists that he is not ... could I be dillusional in this thinking? See what self-confidence he erases in me? It's just horrid.<P>I agree that a break would be great, but with "life" going on it isn't possible to get away for any length of time. <P>And as for going out with "the girls"... well, H gets in a real bind over that one, plays little possible scenarios in his head before I go out with the girls (manhunt, ya know) and gets in an overall pout from it for about a week. So I have stopped going out altogether with my friends, haven't been out with them in 9 months. Tried to make some new friends that were more local, but both turned out coincidentally to be single and H said that he didn't want me being friends with them, that when they went out they would have an "agenda" (manhunt) that I shouldn't be a part of. Sigh.. so I just gave up on spending time with the girls for now.<BR>We actually do get much time apart and alone, as he travels internationally 1/2 of the time. Of course, that isn't time to relax, it's single parenting and having ALL the responsibility.... but it does provide me a break from his emotional behaviour.<P>

Re-reading the post and thinking that maybe it's pretty obvious.. to make this marriage survive it's simple.<BR>Meet H's EN of SF x-times per week, irregardless of my feelings about intimacy (close my eyes and pretend it's someone else) and accept every other part of this marriage as a given, cause it's quite obvious that everything I deem most important is way down on H's list. <P>I am no longer supposed to ask or remind H to do anything (domestic, home repairs, upgrades) because he feels it's nagging and that's a LB to him. I am supposed to accept how and when he does things, since that is part of accepting him. (Who cares that the back door has been off the hinges for a year, the yard is run amuck with weeds and the grass is taller than the dog's back anyway? I'm still patiently waiting and waiting without asking) <P>Who cares if I single parent now half of the time? <P>Who cares if my words and actions are twisted around in disrespectful judgment by him? Surely that would end with a roll in the hay. <P>Happiness is right around the corner. (tongue in cheek)<p>[This message has been edited by Waiting2Exhale (edited September 01, 2001).]

Hi WaitingtoExhale:<P>You would think that the A would have jolted your H out of the rut he has been in for so many years...but apparently it hasn't. But I also think you are making a mistake in not at least trying to bridge the intimacy gap between you and him. <P>I know that is a mistake I have made throughout my marriage...not that I was aware that I was making a mistake...but for whatever reason my emotional needs were left unfilled and having no one else to blame I had to blame my H for that lack...and as a result I tended to withdraw from him and our intimacy suffered greatly.<P>This kind of thing feeds on itself and resulted in his finding someone else to fulfill his needs....the affair.<BR>But I've come to realize (mostly though reading some of the male responses on this board) how differently men view intimacy (SF) and its priority in their lives. For most of them it is #1...and it's their way of expressing their love for their wives...and if is not there in the marriage then they have no starting point to build express their love from. <P>You have betrayed your H...there's no getting around that..for whatever reason....and the hurt is there...even if he is not showing it...and to heal that hurt you have to be willing to overlook your EN's and begin to built the intimacy with your H in the way he feels most comfortable expressing it. Lay a foundation of intimacy...and I know this is hard when you have been distant for months or even years...by giving yourself to him with no thought of return...until he is comfortable once more in your love...then you can begin to work with him on understanding that even greater intimacy could be acheived by his being willing to work with you on meeting your ENs.<P>Its sad in so many marriages that we lack the skills to reach each other...until its too late. I hope its not to late to save your marriage.<P>Faye

Ok - so you don't need time apart... maybe more time together? sans kids? I don't know where you are, but maybe a shopping trip, or to the ocean, mountains? Have you two had any time together, to try to stop feeling so angry at eachother?

Gosh Faye, your wisdom astounds me! Here I am posting about going out, and you have such great advice to give. Please don't leave anytime soon (although I wish none of us had to be here...)<P>Deb