I read you recent replies to cali, and I feel I'm in a similar situation. D-day was 4 months ago. WW never admitted EA (possibly PA). She has been talking D ever since, but has taken no action (but I think something is in the offing). No indication of wanting to work on marriage. <BR>We're at a stalemate. I've been plan A'ing as best I can. I have made big changes in my behavior (very few LB's). I never bring up OM or A. Seldom initiate any talks about us. <BR>I feel I'm doing a good plan A, but you always question it when you aren't getting any results. I'm trying to meet the EN's I can (domestic, family and financial support; conversation), but she won't let me meet others (affection, recreational companionship, etc.). Steve Harley says I'm doing the best I can under the circumstances. <P>Here's the dilemma. I believe a separation would be best for both of us, but neither of us will leave due to divorce/custody ramifications. Plan B is not an option.<BR>I'm not LB'ing much or fighting the urge to. What can I do??? Seems I have no options.<P>sad dad

I have been contemplating your circumstances ever since becoming aware. It truly is a kinda impasse thingy. So just some random thoughts here (to take my mind off my own crap). My wife is not real good at being a bs (as in doing plan a stuff, and avoiding LB, and steering clear of accountability stuff), so she wanted me out fairly soon after discovery, and when I didn't roll over and beg forgiveness blah blah blah. But I refused to leave (for a variety of reasons, practical and emotional). She still says this everytime she gets angry (like yesterday). The thing is she uses the idea as a sort of punishment, and is all about her (as is pretty much everything in her emotional life), she can't take it, she wants to get it over with, she she she she she (wait, I digress, I said I was gonna forget my crap for a minute)..... anyways your circumstances are different, cause of kids ages (my youngest is 15). Your posts have a flavor of increasing frustration, the kind that comes from feeling you have no options but are unhappy with the current situation (which multiplied by a 1000x should give you some idea about how a ws feels living a lifetime trapped with you). But the fact is, we always have options, is simply a matter of willingness to accept consequences....so in no particular order, will lay em out as I see em...<P>1. You want a seperation, and first choice is for wife to leave, you keep home and kids and life pretty much normal, she apparently is unwilling.<P>2. You leave, she gets normalcy....you are unwilling.<P>These issues revolve around fears of losing parenting rights through legal actions. So FIRST (if not allready done so) get good legal advice re exactly how this stuff works in court. Secondarily I know you are fearful of disrupting your relationship with kids, that can possibly be addressed satisfactorily by a legal seperation agreement, who gets kids when and under what circumstances. Have you negotiated at all with w about a seperation and kid issues? Also if finances are tight, the issue of maintaining adequately 2 households arises too. Keeping all that in mind, some more thoughts. Mostly going to involve serious hardball (aka LB)<P>3. Stop paying the rent/mortgage until you are evicted, live where you want with kids, and decline to let wife move in (if legal).<P>4. Take kids and move in with someone else who will not allow w on property. <P>5. Take a job in another spot far enough away to crimp ws A, and just take kids and move, letting wife come or not as she pleases.<P>These are options that will being things to a head in one heck of a hurry, but will definitely clarify your w intent. Or you can wait as she carries out her agenda and drops the bomb on you...your call. Get good legal advice first, make it clear you are willing to work with her, but she stops the non affair first and provides extraordinary precautions. Also I realize one must factor in potential emotional trauma on kids... if you want to make that the priority, just leave yourself, give kids to wife. It interests me that the BS community feels it must be so careful of ws....that is true in certain ways, but not defending yourselves leaveing all the intitiative up to ws works against you too. You seem to be weak, and who wants a weak spouse? The problem is attitude, you are often angry, and act in anger, which belies your so-called love for us, and exposes your self-serving agenda of trying to control and bind us into the marriage. So my advice is to not be afraid to take defensive actions (after ws won't cooperate as in your case), but do it calmly, without rancor, without threats, just matter of fact, doing what you must, but are always willing to negotiate in good faith, and even moreso IF the ws does no contact. I sit here and watch/listen to so many of the bs interactions with ws, so often, far to often, they are full of anger (disguised or not), and I wonder why anyone would want to be married to such an angry person anyways. Right or wrong, (and I think it is right) a ws interprets anger as selfishness and not love. Which I suppose is why it is a LB.... duh. The single best behaviour for reconcilliation is no anger from the bs, none, nada, ever..... BUT firmness and boundaries are essential and make you very attractive (well, if the boundaries are appropriate). Likewise no crying, woe is me, gnashing of teeth, clinginess, neediness (as in I can't go on without you, not the true need of one for their mate) are major LB also, why would anyone want such an emotional wreck for a spouse? But I digress again...so on we go.<P>6. Hire a good private detective so you know exactly where you stand, and have the evidence you need for custody battles (should they arise).<P>7. Do an in-house plan b, but this is tough, and I personally think it is idiotic if ws is still maintaining contact.<P>8. Start LB yourself (not maliciously) but seriously up the pressure re contact stuff, stay in her face, interfere with her time, disrupt stuff with om any way you can, including confronting om, fileing lawsuits against om, etc. until something gives. WS don't mind being fought for, if done right, can actually be a Love Bank deposit, but you won't find it in any manual. I am convinced a fair amount of marital failures occur because of MB principles as well....not to be confused with definitely applying MB principles in a functioning marriage. This is a war, an interpersonal war (in a way), fought on many murky levels, and IMO the harleys don't always know how to fight it, having never been ws themselves. But having been a ws myself, should I ever (heaven forbid) be a bs, you can bet I will not proceed necessarily in the ways espoused here sometimes. The bs aren't nearly aggressive enough, our species rewards aggression, and stomps the meek...however it is tricky in the marital arena... the aggression must be appropriate and nurturing, not confrontational or controlling, a fine line indeed, but it is there. The biggest shortcoming the bs have, is they are afraid of running off their spouse, and that fear is your undoing in many cases. Until a bs comes to feel/understand/accept the old marriage is dead, cannot be saved, and that a new one may or may not arise from the ashes, they are paralyzed, their options limited, and indeed the ws absolutely controls the relationship, and we all know what absolute power usually results in...... Good luck sad, and sorry to subject you to my maunderings (is that a word?).<P>Oh yeah, amount me not leaveing. I just didn't do it, wife would periodically get angry/depressed and insist, I would just politely decline, reminding her it is my house too.....finally she decided she would just leave then, that had an effect cause I did not want her too. I suspect if you leave (with the kids) you will certainly get your wifes attention.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 01, 2001).]

Hi Sad Dad,<P>You are experiencing first hand someone else controlling your life in a negative way. You say you have been doing a good Plan A for four months. Four months in my book is a long time for someone to have negative control over your life,especially if you've done a good Plan A. If what you are doing isn't changing things, then it's time to do something different.<P>WS behavior, as all human behavior, can be analyzed and changed through the principles of behaviorism. Applied behavior analysis is a wonderful tool for explaining and providing an understanding of how to extinguish negative behavior and reinforce positive behaviors.Continuing behaviors are all tied to the benefit(reinforcement) or lack of benefit we get from engaging in them. Your wife has no reason to change what she is doing, there is no consequence( this is very different than punishment) and she is comfortable doing what she is doing. As long as she is comfortable and she does not have to deal with any consequences it is highly unlikely that she will change.<P>Enter Sad Dad. You have to change things. A separation is a reasonable consequence to continued affair behavior on the part of WS. A separation is also a reasonable consequence to WS's continuing to refuse to participate in repairing a marriage, unless of course you are willing to live in the current conditions until WS decides otherwise (still no guarantee that they will choose to participate, they may well choose to leave after making you wait and endure hell for as long as they are comfortable). Waiting is your choice. <P>I preferred to be proactive in my own life.I simply didn't want to hurt anymore, didn't want the pain of my H's indecision in my face everyday, didn't want to live like that everyday. There is something liberating(and my H says very attractive) about taking control when you are faced with a major crossroads. It felt really good to know that I didn't have to sit and wait for my H to decide if he still wanted to be married, I went on with my life, taking care of my kids and myself preparing myself and getting stronger, rebuilding my self esteem, and adjusting to life without him. Don't we have to do this anyway, if our WS decides to leave?! Yes. My thinking was that for my own emotional health and for the stability of my kids, the sooner I did this, the better. I did not want to be at the mercy of my WS's inner turmoil. He wasn't resolving that for either of us so I had to resolve it for me.<P>It is very scary to take steps to separate. However, living in fear is fruitless, you gain absolutely nothing and suffer much. If wife refuses to move out or leave the kids with you, you must protect yourself legally. Go see an attorney before you make any move to do anything.<P>Biggest thing to remember, there must be consequences to your wife's behavior in order for her to have an impetus to change. After four months you start to realize that she could go on in the current state of affairs indefinitely. When this happens you have to be the one to change the dynamics and do so in a way that is positive for you. If you change the dynamics so that you are once again living in a positive way for you ( preventing the enduring of continued pain) it will provide WS with NATURAL consequences to their behavior. You can still be caring and not punitive towards WS if you do this in a manner that is proactive towards maintaining your stability and right to live without constant pain. Just don't try to punish her and get legal advise if you can't mutually agree to the terms of separation or don't think that she will follow them.

snl,<P>Thanks for your reply. Some real non-MB ideas.<P>I have consulted with a lawyer. Neither she, Steve Harley, friends, family or those here have rocommended leaving. Legally, leaving has ramifications. If I leave, my W can get a court order preventing me from returning. Also, it can be seen by a judge that I abandoned my family and can hurt me in custody proceedings. As far as leaving with my daughter, I don't know that I can do that legally, and talk about an LB.<P>I am not angry at my W. I was, but am past that point. I understand why and how this happened. But I am frustrated by the "fence sitting". I probably should have hired a PI before d-day. Not for legal/divorce/custody reasons, but so that I could have presented irrefutable facts to her on d-day so we could avoid the whole "he's just a friend" merry-go-round.<P>I do agree that maybe I need to be more pro-active. Maybe I should present her with all the info I know (or most of it), not in a "here, you're lying" kind of way, but more like "this is what I know, what would you think if you were me?". The A is part of the problem, but not really the problem. I just want to get it out in the open, then try to address our marriage and if there is anything we can do to go on from here. <P>I'm just so tired of the stalemate. I wish I knew what to do to break it. I've got to do something, not in a manipulative or coersive way to elicit a reaction or response, but so we can both take a step forward in one direction or another. I just can't do anything hurt my daughter or jeapordize her relationship with either of us.<BR>I'm going to make an appointment with Steve to get his advice.<P>sad dad<P><BR> <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited September 01, 2001).]

mthrrhbard,<P>I must have been replying to snl's post while you were replying to mine. I aggre with you completely. Please see my reply to snl.<P>sad dad

snl,<P>snl - Your posts have a flavor of increasing frustration, the kind that comes from feeling you have no options but are unhappy with the current situation (which multiplied by a 1000x should give you some idea about how a ws feels living a lifetime trapped with you<P>sad dad -<BR>If my W feels so trapped, why not file for D? Im not forcing her to stay with me. We both make a comfortable living, she's not staying for financial reasons. <P>snl -<BR>You seem to be weak, and who wants a weak spouse? <P>sad dad - <BR>Isn't my W equally weak for not following through on her <BR>desire for D?<P>snl -<BR>Start LB yourself (not maliciously) but seriously up the pressure re contact stuff...<P>sad dad - <BR>Please refer to my earlier post about presenting her with more of what I know. Maybe it will help her realize that in spite of her denials, I really do know the truth and there is no need to pretend that the truth is not the truth.<P>Separation is not an option, but filing for D is. Maybe I should file. Not to force her hand, but to let her know that the current situation is not acceptable and although I don't want a D, something has to change. <P>sad dad <BR>

I don't get it. Why is a separation not a viable option and divorce is? If finances are not much of an issue I would think a separation would be a very viable option.<P>I would lay every bit of info and proof of the affair I had out on the table. You are not accomplishing anything by letting her think she's effectively keeping some little secret.

In some states seperation is not a legal option (does not exist), so one has to file for divorce, and I agree sad dad, you may have to do that, only you can decide. Letting a ws wander without consequence is a choice with diminishing returns. I am in the plan a first camp, but a few months (without a negotiation re A) seems sufficient, beyond that I think the bs starts appearing weak. If no contact is accomplished, I can see long term plan a'ing all situationally dependent of course.<P>saddad...snl said- Your posts have a flavor of increasing frustration, the kind that comes from feeling you have no options but are unhappy with the current situation (which multiplied by a 1000x should give you some idea about how a ws feels living a lifetime trapped with you<P>sad dad -<BR>If my W feels so trapped, why not file for D? Im not forcing her to stay with me. We both make a comfortable living, she's not staying for financial reasons.<P>snl..I dunno, probably she is an emotionally cautious individual, and recognizes the possibility she is confused...she is waiting until she fully processes the changes you have offered, she is assessing those changes against a potential future with om, she is a conflict avoider, take your pick, you know her best, but give me 5 minutes with her and I will tell you exactly. This is not rocket science (although it is confusing, it is understandable). <P>snl -<BR>You seem to be weak, and who wants a weak spouse? <P>sad dad - <BR>Isn't my W equally weak for not following through on her <BR>desire for D?<P>snl... No. She is doing exactly what she wants, that is strength, you on the other hand are "reacting" which is always weak. Proacting is much stronger, when done right of course, But was not trying to impugn you, was a general statement about BS behaviour of some sorts. I think you have done pretty good (from your own self-reporting), but I think your feeling that something needs to be done is correct, and you should listen to it.<P>snl -<BR>Start LB yourself (not maliciously) but seriously up the pressure re contact stuff...<P>sad dad - <BR>Please refer to my earlier post about presenting her with more of what I know. Maybe it will help her realize that in spite of her denials, I really do know the truth and there is no need to pretend that the truth is not the truth.<P>snl...That would be my choice, the carrot being will continue to plan a (if no contact starts), and agree to let her amicably go after some reasonable time or effort (like a year or so)...the stick being (and don't do it till you are fully prepared and committed), that much as you hate too you will file for divorce, contested if need be.<P>Good Luck<BR>

Sd- how come you say that you think your W might be ready to file soon? Do you think she has been to an attorney recently? My H filed on me at the 3 mo point after d-day. I think he was pressured by OW, thought he couldnt ever forgive himself enough to get his feelings back for me, and also he perceived me as weak and needing him more than loving him. He also had lost respect for me which Plan A did not really help with. If I were you I wouldnt stay in plan A beyond 6 mo without taking some proactive step after that. Affairs should have consequences even if they arent admitted affairs by the cheater.(in that case the lack of honesty about admitting the A makes it all the worse!)I think that my H secretly did respect the fact that I asked him to move out when he wouldnt end his A with OW. Your wife may actually end up respecting your taking a more firm stand with her. What do you think? Listen to your gut. Often power imbalances between the spouses are at the root of marital problems in affairs. I know that was the case with my H and I. Take care- good luck ! lifeismessy

mthrrhbard,<P>The reason that separation (me leaving) is not an option in that it will hurt my slim chances, as a man, for custody. Filing for a D will not. Let me clarify something, I don't want, nor could I get, full custody. What I want is joint custody with my daughter living with me. Our situation is not common. We both work and our daughter is in daycare. Due to our schedules I spend more time with our daughter. I have always shared ALL parenting duties equally.<P>snl,<P>I agree that at this point I may seem weak and I need to be proactive. I didn't take offense, I know you were mking a blanket statement about BS's. IMO, my W has three options. <P>1) Break it off with OM and recommit to our marriage. <P>2) Divorce me, to be with OM or just to be out of the marriage.<P>3) Do nothing.<P>Option 1 & 2 have risks and consequences. It she chooses option 1, she may be giving up someone who can truly make her happy. Also, she will have to make herself emotionally vulnerable of getting hurt again if nothing changes. Risky proposition. If she chooses option 2, she could be making a huge mistake and the guilt of tearing her daughter's family apart may haunt her forever. Option 3 is safe. <P>I think I will lay all my "proof" on the table and simply ask her what she would think in my position.<P>My assessment of my plan A efforts has been right on, at least from my perspective. In fact, I have handled myself so opposite of how anyone who knows me would have expected, that I think she may wondering what I'm up to. I've done a complete 180 from how I used to be.<P>lim,<BR>A few days ago my W asked me if I knew where her stock certificates were. I didn't know. This is pure speculation on my part, but I think she may be thinking of cashing some in to have money for a retainer.<P>At this point, the lack of admission and continued lying bothers me more than the A. It shows a complete lack of respect, trust or faith in me. <P>You've all given me much to think about. I'll see what Steve has to say. <P>sad dad <P>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited September 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited September 02, 2001).]

Hi SD:<P>Generally speaking I prefer to make actions involving the A or WS which will result in making it easier for me to deal with the consequences of the A as they impact on me....and not for the effect they will have on WS or OP. <P>I believe we as BS have a right to have a life too...free as much as possible from the turmoil that the A is causing in WS's personal life. This A was their choice...freely made...with an option not to have been made...and once made because of the tremendous amount of hurt involved they need to proceed with their choice to its culmination...whether it is to leave or stay.<P>The choice made...they no longer have the right to sit back in the arms (so to speak) of BS and leisurely decide "who it's going to be"....this decision has to be made without the support of BS...because they didn't consider BS when they made their decision to go outside the marriage.<P>As long as your wife is not trying to work on the marriage (and from your description she isn't)...in other words putting as much effort into trying to heal the marriage as she is in trying to leave the marriage...then she needs to be elsewhere...yes...a separation. <P>I personally think that this process of deciding what WS wants is really unaffected by much that BS does...the fog is just too deep. Changes will be noticed..but they won't affect the decision...only exposure to the negatives of what is wished for can do that. So only living with OM or at least more exposure to him can acheive what is needed...and that will probably require a separation.<P>I think you for your own sake need to consider taking some steps to limit your wife's comfort level right now...make her aware of all the "proof" that you have...totally honesty with her...give her the option of working on the marriage or getting out...not as an ultimatum but as a necessity for your emotional health...the time for indecision is over...if she can't decide then she needs to leave...because you can't be with her under these conditions any more...because if you continue as you are this situation will kill what love you have left for her. <P>Consult with your attorney about the legal ramifications in your state but generally Judges don't care about all this separation stuff...or abandonment. Lots of people get separated and don't lose custody of their kids. Getting sole custody of the kids is difficult unless the mother has problems that are effecting the health and safety of the children or is generally a flake...and having an affair is not considered flaky. You can reasonable expect to get shared custody if you like...in fact that is the route that most parents are taking these days. Oh, I forgot to mention that I deal with this stuff everyday in a law office.<P>Sorry there's not a better way...but some WS cannot reach a decision in the marriage...they have to miss what they had before they realize what they stand to lose.<P>Faye<P>

buffy,<P>I asked my W to leave about a month ago. She refused. I will consult with a lawyer to see what my legal options are. I do not believe my W will leave under any circumstances. If she could, she would have already. I won't leave. Why should I give up my home and seeing my daughter everyday when I am willing to forgive the A and do whatever it takes to save the marriage? If I leave,it won't really change the dynamics of things. She'll have everything she wants, our home, our daughter, freedom to be with OM, no accountability to me, and I'll be gone. A win-win situation for her. No consequences to face. It's not right for me to leave. I know, "do I want what's right, or do I want to be married", but woth no gaurantees, I simply can't leave. I wasn't the perfect H, who is, but I've lived up to my failings, have mades changes and want to work on the marriage. I've done what I can.<P>I've got to do something for my emotional well being. I'm just not sure what that is. <P>Do I have any legal options to get her to leave?<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited September 03, 2001).]

SD- I know in my state Ohio, my attorney said that he could make my H move off the couch within a few wks with some legal paperwork. I probably would have had to file for D to start it off though.I would have if things had dragged on much longer. Why not do that? File on adultery charges and have your lawyer put in an order to make her move out- now THAT would get her attention. Believe me my H was convinced he would never have to leave our couch during the D process because we owned our house jointly, but that was not true according to my lawyer. When I told that to H I told him he better start looking for an apt to move into, but that if I were him I"d be more worried about his 'permanent home.' (I am very religious)Harsh yes, but it took effect.In fact I found out later he secretly respected me for taking that firm a stance with him.He could no longer take me and my love for granted. Take care- lifeismessy

lim,<P>Food for thought. I will talk to a lawyer about whether I have any legal options to get her to leave. I don't want a D, but she is unwilling to work on our marriage and something has to give. Before I do that though, I will diclose most of what I know. There some things I know, but I will keep them to myself as they are my only current lifeline to the truth. I don't know much more than what she already knows about, but if she continues to deny continued contact with OM, she can proof it rather easily. All she has to do is request copies of her cell phone bill. If she has nothing to hide, this shouldn't be too much to ask. I will again ask her to leave since she is unwilling to work on the marriage. I already know she won't.<P>At that point, I'll have to consider my options and D is about the only one. I'm not sure I'm ready for that, but I guess you never are. I've taken plan A to such an extreme that I'm no longer being myself. I've got to take control of my life back. If it costs me my marriage, so be it. I've done what I can, she's done nothing, which is exactly what she wants. She has the best of both worlds now. There's a price to be paid for the choices we make in life and so far she hasn't had to pay a price. I have a right to be happy too and I didn't choose another person to make me happy. I may sound vindictive, but I'm really not. It's just time to put myself first.<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited September 03, 2001).]

SD- When I was in the spot you were in, both my therapist and pastor counseled me that its not emotionally healthy to let your spouse's immoral actions go on and on because it will wear down your own sense of self- respect and that is damaging. They need to be accountable for their actions. Please check with your attorney about all the ways you could get W out of your house and you might need to consult more than one attorney on this to be sure you have all your possible options. Usually the first consultation is free so take advantage of that.I found a really good one from a referral from an attorney who goes to my church. Believe me I am adamantly opposed to divorce but in the good ole USA sometimes thats what it takes to get a WS to get off the fence. I think your W cashing out those certificates is a big red flag that she is paying a retainer to an attorney to file on you by surprise.My H's attorney charged $1500 up front as a retainer.He got the funds out of his personal biz checking account so I wouldn't realize what he was doing. You may want to 'surprise' her instead by filing first. If you feel in your gut she's getting ready to file youre probably right. My H never told me but I felt like he might and he did. I was extremely ticked off that he filed on grounds of irreconcilable differences- that was all he could come up with on me. Hardly what was really going on at the time.I could have found out before the process server came to my house if I had gone online and accessed our domestic county court records. See if yours are online- you could find out what day she filed by doing that. They are public records and usually easy to access if you call the county court and get their website address. Just because either of you files doesnt mean you will necessarily end up divorcing. Many a process has been dismissed as ours was. It did shine a bright light into H's life and expose the dark dusty corners he was hiding in with OW. It definitely led to the end of his waffling. Keep posting! lifeimessy

lim,<P>I plan to set up at least one appointment this week. I'm sure your right about the "red flag". About 5 months ago I did the same thing. I cashed in some mutual funds and set up my own checking account, just as a precaution. <P>I just finished a letter to my W detailing everything I know about the A. I decided to write a letter instead of telling her so that I wouldn't leave anything out and I could not be interrupted. I ended it by asking "...if you were me, what would you believe?". Everything in it is fact, not speculation. I plan on giving it to her and asking her to read it in front of me. Most likely she'll continue to deny, but I won't need to tip-toe around the subject anymore. I know talking about the A or OM is an LB, but I think that pertains to situations where the A is admitted to and some effort is being put towards reconcilliation.<BR>Pretending the truth isn't the truth is pointless. I'm giving her a chance to come clean. If she chooses not to, I will do what's in my best interest.<P>sad dad<P> <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited September 04, 2001).]

just bumping

Sad dad,<P>You are correct about leaving your place. If you leave, your wife can get a court order on you so that you can't come back. She will say you "left" the family.<P>You can't force your wife to leave. My lawyer said that I may want to suggest that she finds her own place so that she can have her freedom, them get a court order on her so that she can't come back. She left on her own. <P>As far as your W having a affair, the judge will say "AND". Unless your wife is a VERY BAD PERSON, very bad, it will be tough to get the kids in a divorce.<P>I fully agree with mthrrhbard and LIM on that four to five months is a resonable time for plan A. Something needs to change. Basically, the WS has the best of both worlds and that needs to change. Why suffer. I have been for four months, but no longer. Protect yourself and your kids. I have my retainer money ready and my paperwork complete. Do I want a divorce? - No. But, I can't live the way I'm living. She made this choice, not me.<P> I am in that same boat. It's been four and a half months since I found out about the EA maybe PA and finally over the past two weeks my W is acting like the woman I married 9 years ago. She is communicating and treating me like I am her husband again. I hope she found the light, but I take it day by day. The fog can make WS do crazy things.<P>This was a great post with great replies.<P>Take care Sad Dad

Dino,<P>We don't live far from each other. Maybe we can get together for a beer. Let me know.<P>sad dad