Thanks for the referral K, Jo, I am going to call tomorrow morning. the books can't arrive quickly enough. Communication with W is good, we are addressing EN's, have both begun the ENQ. W just sent an email that will push me thru the rest of the day...says the physical attraction is there and can see that I am trying to change. Hearing that is good, it'll keep me in the right bedroom tonight, at least.<P>I've read a lot here, but one thing I'd like to know from WS's and BS's is how long did the A last? Mine is almost 2 yearls old, and I think that's a lot considering it's 1/4 my marriage. Two years carries with it a lot of terrible lies and deception. Does anybody think there's a correlation between the duration of the A and the recovery period?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Bad Hubby (edited September 06, 2001).]

Hi Bad Hubby:<P>Congradulations...five days...without OW....and I know that much seem like an eternity to you. <P>My general impression of this thread so far is that you had a problem with SF in your marriage...you either failed to make your wife understand how important it was to you...or maybe she did understand but didn't know what to do...maybe she is exhausted from her life...maybe she had a physical problem...maybe it was something you were doing or not doing....these are a lots of maybes...but there was a problem and neither of you has dealt with it....in an appropriate way, i.e. counseling, talking it out, therapy, whatever it might take. <P>SF is a hard subject for partners to deal with due to its effect on self-esteem...especially if it is not going right....but if it's not dealt with then the problem just gets worse. You said you told your wife she could not satisfy you before you were married....that must have been a real confidence builder....and apparently she lived up to your prediction. Wonder how much better she would have been if you had told her she was wonderful...and then gently helped her to please you more. I'll bet all these years her apparent disinterest has been her way of turning off so that she doesn't have to deal with the frustration of not being able to please you. <P>Well, whatever the problem it existed and it didn't get fixed and you felt the problem lay with her...so when the opportunity came along with OW you were vunerable to what she had to offer...which apparently was SF...just what you were looking for. That was a mistake...but it's made.<P>Your OW may be a wonderful woman...just like she appears to you...but unfortunately you still have unfinished business with your wife...a previous commitment. And at least you can see that she deserves better then you have been giving her. And, as good as it seems to chuck it all and run off with OW and live forever in a bliss of unbridled SF...you know that it won't work...not until you've fulfilled your commitment to the past.<P>In two years time you have not move the relationship with OW past the "love-struck" level of involvement...is this due to guilt or is there some reason you have waited all this time while indulging yourself in an orge of SF. Inherantly you may know that if this relationship was to change and evolve to a more marriage like level then it would not hold the magic for you that it does as an affair.<P>I'm not trying to blame you...there is really no one to blame here (except for the affair...that really was your choice) but things could and should have been done that weren't. Probably everyone on this board has failed to do what should have been done...maybe because it was just easier to ignore and hope it would go away or fix itself.<BR>Or we self-medicate with alcohol, eating, affairs...whatever...so that we can go on....what a shame!!! <P>If you can do what needs to be done...end the relationship with OW...then tell your wife what a mistake you've made...about assuming how she felt without asking her...about taking a selfish way to cure the problem for you alone (because you have no idea how alone she has felt)...about failing to ask for her help in dealing with a problem you both had...about taking a chance on throwing away your family and forsaking your integrity.<P>Please take my advise and take all the blame for this affair squarely on your shoulders...for now...for the affair was entirely your mistake...no matter what happened in your marriage...you had other options. The time for assigning wrongs and rights will come later...now you need to concentrate on what a mistake this was and how sorry you are that she has to go through this. This is the only approach that has any possibility of saving your marriage.<P>This will be hard...but not as hard on you as it is on her....remember that...and accept her pain as justified and appropriate. This will help her move past the pain eventually.<P>I sorry I don't have much to offer you to help with letting go of the OW...but sometimes we just have to do what is right...no matter how much it hurts. A long time down this road you will feel a greater sense of pride and you will have regained your respect for yourself in the meantime.<P>I think you have made a good start...but a bad time is coming and you must steel yourself not to use OW as a way to make yourself feel better about yourself. Don't give in<BR>...you're on the road to finding yourself again...and you've been lost but you didn't know it.<P><BR>Faye

OK Buffy,<BR>Your assesment was pretty accurate. There are many details I have left out of my many posts, but I think you came about as close as anybody could. As I have said before, the support I've received from all the loving and caring freinds here has been incredible. I think we WS's deal with our own private hell (one which we have created for ourselves) and the moral support I have found in the last week has made such a difference. <P>As far as a dead-on analysis (one to which I will not refute) you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. W has admitted that her withdrawal from sex was a proximate result of her EN's not being met. So in your analysis, you are somewhat correct in that there was something I was doing or not doing that caused her to become withdrawn.<P>OW is out there, wondering what has happened to us, and I feel badly that I have left her hanging. W wants me back badly, although she hasn't received the bomb that will become D-Day. She said to me in an email today that we need to forget the past. I will remember that when the time comes for me to reveal the dark secret I have carried for two years. I only hope she really means that.<P>I've hurt my family and the ones I love most, and it's not going to stop there. I fear for those who will suffer the pain I'll cause when I do come clean. My two loves, my family, and my freinds; those who have trusted and supported me in my time of need. When they find out what I have been hiding and the lies and deception to which I have subjected them, I'll stand to lose a large part of my support group. <P>I take full resposibility for this, and as you said, I made the choice to have an affair. I don't blame OW for this, and I am slowly accepting the fact that W was not responsible for it either. For a long time blamed it on her. Two years ago I half jokingly told her that I needed a girlfreind. Four months later, I was in a full blown EA/PA with OW. Funny thing about self fulfilling prophecies...<P>W wanted me to stay tonight (it was my night to see the kids). I declined, I know she is trying, and she confesses that she has physical needs now, which haven't been there for a long time. I resisted. The guilt is taking its toll. I can still smell her perfume on my shoulder from our embrace before I departed, and I wish she were here. But now I am struggling with my inner need for SF and the EN;s of my W. Sex right now just doesn't seem as important. Funny thing... <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Bad Hubby (edited September 07, 2001).]

This one is for you, too:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CaringAndLovingIndividual:<BR><B><I>Every relationship in your life can be healed, every relationship can be wonderful, but it's always going to begin with you. You need to have the courage to use the truth, to talk with yourself with the truth, to be completely honest with yourself. Perhaps you don't have to be honest with the whole world, but you can be honest with yourself. Perhaps you cannot control what is going to happen around you but you can control your own reactions. Those reactions are going to guide the dream of your life, your personal dream. It's your reactions that make you happy or unhappy.<P>Your reactions are the key to having a wonderful life. If you can learn to control your own reactions, then you can change your routines, and change your life. </I><P>from "The Mastery of Love" by don Miguel Ruiz<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Cali<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

I have to admit that I often did not want to have sex with my H, although I enjoy making love.<P>It's really hard to want to make love to a man when you feel like it doesn't really matter that it's YOU in the bed with him...that any available orifice would do. It's really hard to want to make love to a man who has crawled your butt up one side and down the other that day, yet gets all lovey-dovey when he wants SF. Oh, let's don't forget that his idea of SF didn't include my SF. After all, it takes "too long" and is "too much trouble" to get you going. Yes, my H has actually told me this.<P>It's hard to want to make love to a man who acts like he can't stand to kiss you except during sex, whose idea of seduction is to reach for you when you get into bed. It's also hard to want to make love to a man who insists on you performing in ways that aren't comfortable for you and totally turns you off. I'm talking about continuing to demand after being told that I didn't want to do that particular thing.<P>I'm not saying that you have behaved in these ways at all; but maybe it's your approach that turns your wife off. I know I got to feeling like sex was just one more chore I had to do for H. The fact that he DEMANDED sex only turned me off even more.<P>Now, I WANT my H to make love to me; and, to give him credit, he does so as much as I guess he's able. However, I still don't feel like he's in love with me, and he still doesn't make any effort to seduce me...and yes, I've told him that I crave real romance from him. However, my desire to have sex with my H is once again diminishing...because I want him to really want ME, not just his own SF. Does that make sense to you?<P>Find out what makes your wife feel sexy. It may be that she would just like to be told that she's beautiful. I would give anything to have my H tell me that I'm beautiful. The best he's done over the past few years is to tell me a couple of times that I look pretty when I was dressed up, and once told me that I was an attractive woman. We've been to a few formal parties where I went for broke in terms of dress and appearance. He didn't even notice. I wore one outfit one year, and a year later wore it again. The second year, he did ask me if I had a new dress. I know I looked good, because all his friends told me so. A couple of them even told me that they especially liked the body glitter on my cleavage. <P>Let your W know that you think she's "hot" without necessarily trying to get her into bed at that particular time. Give her a full body massage without expecting her to "reward" you for it; let it be all about her. Act "as if" your W is the most beautiful, sweetest woman you've ever known. Give her genuine compliments. Call her "Sweetheart", "Darling", etc. in general conversation. Take an interest in her activities. <P>WOO your wife!<BR>LC

Morning BH!<P>Whoa! You've now heard from Mthrhubard, K, Faye, Bramble Rose and Cali ... they ROCK, don't they? <P>How are you doing today, Bad Hubby? Have you received your books yet?<P>Did you make your appt with the Harley's?<P>Nosey Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<BR><B>Morning BH!<BR>How are you doing today, Bad Hubby? Have you received your books yet?<BR>Did you make your appt with the Harley's?<BR>Nosey Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>The MB bookstore didn't give me any special shipping options, so I am not sure when they'll arrive. I haven't made the call..but it is the first thing on my list after I take care of work. <P>W just called, she's excited because we have a date tonight. I am too, but a bit apprehensive about it. She knows the issue of my SN and really wants to make it work. So do I. But as I am sure you've all gathered from my earlier posts, I am a bit of a ****-dog, and I don't want to end up using her for sex tonight.<P>Thoughts anyone?<BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Bad Hubby (edited September 07, 2001).]

Bad Hubby,<P>As of late, a few of the WS's here have said their A lasted approx 2 to 3 years. I know that's a long period of time that carries lots of deceit and lies, but how does that matter now? It really shouldn't IMHO. <P>And as for a direct correlation of the duration of an A to the Marriage Recovery time, I would ask Steve or Jenn Harley that question in your counseling session. <P>I hope you are well.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 07, 2001).]

If your wife is feeling amorous, I think you should romance her to a point. However, since you feel being intimate with her is not right for you at this time, I say you tell her that. Be honest. Start the road to Radical Honesty now. <P>Example:<BR>Tell her you have a lot on your mind, you love her and want her (if you indeed do) but you want to approach the exploration of your marriage recovery very carefully because it is so very important to you. <P>How's that???<P>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<P>Example:<BR>Tell her you have a lot on your mind, you love her and want her (if you indeed do) but you want to approach the exploration of your marriage recovery very carefully because it is so very important to you. <P>How's that???<P>Jo[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with you, in fact last weekend I told her something very similar when I got the impression she wanted me to stay over the second night.

Bad Hubby:<P>Your wife needs to be told what's going on...it's unfair for you to continue to keep this from her....please get an appointment with one of the Harleys so that they can help to prepare you so that you can do this with as little hurt to your wife as possible.<P>I agree with Jo about sex with your wife right now...she knows SF is high on your list of needs and she's trying to reconnect with you...impossible if you still have all the guilt about OW and the affair....she will know and sense that things aren't right and will think it's her.<P>For her sake....please tell her soon....right now it is the kindest thing you can do....even if it is the most painful thing for both of you. The air needs to be clear...no more secrets....it's the only way to make a new start. <P>Faye <P>

Bad Hubby:<P>I've been in & out of the site now for a couple days...WOW have you made progress. {{{hug}}}<P>My only advice as a BS is please don't tell her you are or were "in Love" with the OW. Because I don't think you really were. If you were in real true love you would not be here and you would not be trying so hard to save your marriage. Think about it...I know that if my H confessed tobeing "in Love" it would kill me. I would never trust or believe him when he told me he loved me.<P>D-Day advice......<P>Get the kids away..if you can be alone for a couple of days that would be better. Your W is going to be hurt in an undescribable way. <P>Tell her how special she is, how much you love her, how marriage is so difficult & you want to really work at having a wonderful marriage & friendship with her and only her. My H hinted about an A and then went on a business trip I went crazy calling him, my friends etc. He finally said over the phone "Calm down it's not as bad as you think"<P>First I thought Oh my God it's really bad. Then I said it's probalbly something that happened years ago at bachelor party or something.<P>Then the night he was to come home a dozen roses get delivered....I knew it was going to be bad then (he never sent flowers before)<P>Long story short...it has taken my H over 6 months to admit to 13 years of cheating...1 Long Term<P>It has been torture. I begged him from the beginning to tell me everything. He only told me what he could handle.<BR>Again, he was being selfish & putting himself ahead of me. It only made it worse & made the recovery for me a living hell. When you don't tell the truth from the start she will never believe you.<P>It will be hard, but it will be easier for her to handle. Don't drag it out. Answer her questions honestly (but always stop & put yourself in her shoes) Be careful..<P>example: If she asks for specific details..<P>Give them to her....But don't make it sound better or wonderful..Look at your relationship w/the OW for what is..<BR>"Wrong" The feelings weren't real or wonderful they were a fantasy. <P>As far as the OW...the no contact letter should be enough. Don't lead her on & tell her you can't stay w/ her because of your commitment to your wife & family. Tell her it is over because #1 You love your wife #2 You want to make your marriage better #3 the A was wrong #4 Don't take all the blame she never should have entered into a relationship w/ a married man & you should stress that the whole affair was wrong Who's feelings are more important right now ? Who's got more to loose ? Who is going to be devasted beyond belief ? Your W not the OW...she will get over it..probably quicker & better than your W WHY? Because there never was any guarantee given to her, regardless of what you may have said...She isn't wearing your wedding ring she has made no wedding vows to you. She has always had the threat in the back of her mind that the A would end. At least she knows that. <P>Your poor W knows nothing or probably only suspects. All she knows for sure is you are her H & you made a promise to love her, cherish her & foresake all others.<P>Good Luck....<BR>Once D-Day comes. Please tell your W about this site. Also<BR>you can change your name to "Better Husband".<P>Please tell your W that there are others out there feeling what she's feeling & she's not alone.<P>

Hey Bad Hubby,<P>You know what ... I wept last night thinking about you and your wife. You know why?<P>Because I wish more than anything in this world that my husband would have done what you are about to do, would have felt what you are feeling for your wife, would have given like you are going to give. Would have looked at the A and the state of our marriage as an opportunity to make things better, for a new start, to love each other in a way that no one could ever come between us again. Where no one would ever own our hearts but one another.<P>You and wife will have a rough time ahead, but I would give anything to be in your shoes.<P>Bless you both.<P>Love,<BR>Jo<P>

Isn't that the truth Resilient...even with my H home...even with the renewed kisses...I am not trusting...he has not said the words...that he wants to repair us...<P>TALK TO HER WITH RADICAL HONESTY...be open with her...the hardest thing is watching my husband struggle with his thoughts...and then not talking to me...<P>CUT OFF CONTACT AND KEEP IT CUT OFF...the second hardest thing is opening a cell phone bill and seeing her number dozens and dozens of times...or pressing redial and...there it is....<P>HOLD HER WHEN SHE CRIES...my H was so cold when I cried...all I wanted was for his arms to be around me...comforting me...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Bad Hubby Wrote:<BR>"W wants me back badly, although she hasn't received the bomb that will become D-Day. She said to me in an email today that **we need to forget the past**. I will remember that when the time comes for me to reveal the dark secret I have carried for two years. I only hope she really means that."<P>Okay BH,<P>Your wife has said that and I believe she was referring to the bad parts of the marriage. To start anew and forget what happened or didn't happen in the marriage that drove you to leave.<P>Now altho, YES, you both need to forget the old marriage, she isn't going to forget the affair right away. It will take time. You do know that, right?<P>I'm just a wee bit concerned that you are thinking of reminding her of her "**we need to forget the past**" statement on D-Day. <P>Timing is everything, BH.<P>Jo<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<P>Okay BH,<P>Now altho, YES, you both need to forget the old marriage, she isn't going to forget the affair right away. It will take time. You do know that, right?<P>Jo[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes. I suppose it was wishful thinking that we could forget the past (especially the A), but that isn't being fair or realistic.<P>BTW Jo, thanks for sharing that thoughful message earlier. It's a good feeling knowing that there are people like yourself and others who take this to heart, and really do care. It means a lot to me. Now I feel like there's someone else out there that I don't want to let down; that's everybody here who's supported me this entire week, including the unspoken ones who've kept my family in their prayers.<P><BR>Thanks again all.<P>It's been a long day, gotta go home and get ready for a date. (with W) I'll keep you all posted.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Bad Hubby (edited September 07, 2001).]

Hey, Jo & Cali:<P>You know I was thinking that a man would have to be crazy to trade either one of you for a million rolls in the hay or a chance to find themselves...you are both such compassionate women...and if they never say those words you want so much to hear...the fault will not have been with you...it will have been with someone who has failed to appreciate what a wonder he has in each of you.<P>I was responding to louser's thread the other night and she is in so much pain that she has lost much of her belief in the goodness of life...and I thought...what can I say?....in a way, she's right....sometimes things happen to people that they don't deserve...good people do get stomped on...the takers take without giving...and the ruthless seem to do just as they please without punishment...but who am I to question God's plan...and he does have a plan for each of us and it may not always be what we want....but it's what he knows we need. With that in mind I wait for tomorrow, step aside and let him have his will, and know that he will take care of me.<BR>And I know and pray that he'll take care of you too.<P><BR>Faye<p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited September 07, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<BR><B>Morning BH!<P>Did you make your appt with the Harley's?<P>Nosey Jo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Jo,<BR>I called MB today but found out that the appointment center closes at 2 pm. I know you'll help me make it thru the weekend, so I'm not worried. Monday will be here sooner than I think. <P>Heading out the door to wine and dine W.<P>I've no bombs planned for this weekend. Going to make the best of it, especially for her. <P>

Thank you, Faye. I needed those words tonight more than you'll ever know. Guess you are right about God giving us what we need, because I read your post above just when I needed to hear compassionate words from a friend. Been feeling very alone lately. <P>I just really needed to hear that.<P>Jo

Received my books today, SAA and "His Needs, Her Needs". Got the free tape and listened to it already. Missed the return phone call from MB counseling line today, they've got short hours, and being on the west coast only makes it more difficult. So I'll try tomorrow. <P>Time's short, I wish I had more to spend and unload & inform. Tomorrow's another day.<P>Hope all my pals are doing well.