<BR>Impulsive,<P>Well, I guess it is good that you connected physically But did you note and absorb what she told you?<P>1. Give her time. Keep it up, you are doing well overall, but she needs time.<P>2. Murder your Taker. Gag him, bag him and stick him in the basement. Withdrawn spouses will always think that the changes are solely in order to manipulate them into meeting your needs. My W said the same thing "this is just about sex" You have to take that card away, and you do it by putting out no pressure on your needs.<P>3. Your snide AM sulk got you the sex, but it also was a big set back to your Plan A. You have to be consistent, giving, supportive.<P>C'mon, dude, suck it up. Show some discipline, here. You were doing so well.<P>

I KNOW MIKE, I KNOW!!! It's just so hard! I felt like we took a positve step, but I also felt the negative step back on the plan A. We talk on the way to me dropping her off to work and she said that, I'm at a place where I'm thinking let's make it work, and she is at a place where she is tired of thinking like Is this the real deal this time? Why am I always having to be forgiving in this relationship? She says that she's just so scared that the changes will only last for a little while. She is getting frustrated with me checking in occasionally asking her if she changed her mind. She says that I'm making progress but my impatience shows that I'm still selfish, and it's all about me. I don't know what to do. I plan A, she intiaties the relationship questions I answer with I love you and I hope you let me show you how much I love you one day, and here we go again she takes it like I'm pressuring her. I don't know how to be loving and supportive, show affection without coming across like I'm hopelessly in love with her. I'm trying to plan A and be passive but my passive comes across as sulking. Back to my football analogy. I feel like I fumbled but I picked up the ball and scrambled for the 1st down. Could someone give me a typical plan A day? I think I'm missing this plan A thing somehow, because my plan A is coming across like a fart in church! I'm not trying to be hard headed or stubborn, I'm really trying my hardest but I'm definetely falling short. I'm still stuck between being happy go lucky and distant and quiet. I'm really struggling with the middle ground. When I act happy go lucky she act that way and I can't take the lack of connection. When I act distant she get's mad at me for acting selfish and distant.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B> She says that she's just so scared that the changes will only last for a little while.</B><P>So what do you learn from this?<P><B>She is getting frustrated with me checking in occasionally asking her if she changed her mind.</B><P>So what change are you contemplating with this feedback?<P><B>I don't know what to do.</B><P><slap> You don't know how fortunate you are, to have a spouse giving you the map to the landmine like this. I've been working in the dark for a year, with a wife that wouldn't say "ouch" if she cut her hand off. Listen to your W! Hear her concerns. And take the logical action. <P>As far as how to "act" you have to be considerate, supportive, and avoid lovebusting, however she defines it. Right now, typically, she defines it as relationship talks and pressure on your needs. <P>Act like you are on a first date...try to be interesting, amusing, fun, courteous, thoughtful....don't take her for granted, don't impose your needs on her....<P>This may be her coming into conflict a little, and that is good and necessary. She is probing the new you. Pass the test.<P>

Well, I failed the test miserably. I'm so ashamed of myself. I was so close she was growing to like me as a person, she broke down and made love to me. She was really getting into the new me, and then I messed it all up by diving right into a relationship conversation, and then accusing her of hiding something in her email box, then she went out of her way to explain I was wrong, I walked away and pouted like a 5 yr. old. All the Love Busting she hated, came out in one swoop. She laid down today and said this takes so much energy out of me you have no idea. Then once again plan A popped up in my mind. In just 10 minutes I destroyed a solid month of misery and pain wrenching plan A because I wasn't getting my way. She said you know? Just go back to the way you were last week. Focused, mellow and so nice to be around. Then she broke my heart. She said you know I thought having sex would make things beter it seems to have made you worse. I've read on this thread that this set back is going to be even harder to come back from because she was testing me and I failed miserably. Is it to late to start from scratch and start Plan A all over again? What am I up against now? Did I blow my one chance at saving this thing or did I just make my life that much harder? She said I'm draining her emotionally. She says that she wants to go back to the way things were earlier this month, and we can have sex from time to time, because she doesn't want to go anywhere else but she needs me to stay focused on the finances and less on saving the marriage because it's making her crazy because I'm getting so frustrated, and unfocused. What do I do now? Can someone please give me a Damage Assessment please?

It's only as damaging as you <I>allow</I> it to be. Your #1 problem is relationship talks where you feel compelled to <I>press</I> her. <P>Your #2 problem is that you need to stay focused on the $$$ end of things, and the other aspects of being the photonegative of the person you <I>were</I> in the marriage.<P>Your #3 problem is that physical closeness seems to trigger your #1 problem. <P>Your #4 problem is overcoming that bad history of yours.<P>All can be handled. But you keep <I>rushing</I> things, and missing that emotional even keel that you need. And while you say the too-happy stance becomes <I>your</I> problem, I assure you that if you go there, it will become a problem to <I>her</I> after a time, so middle-of-the-road is the way to go. <P>But when you slip back a little, don't panic and don't decide that all has been lost (no matter what <I>she</I> has said). She's not saying the same really <I>bad</I> things that she was, so you've obviously been moving in the right direction. <P>Eddie Murphy's moviestar character in <I>Bowfinger</I> was terribly troubled by a desire to expose himself to the Laker Girls. His Scientology-like church's head (Terrence Stamp) counseled him <I>personally</I>, turning his name, "Kit", into an acronym for "Keep It Together". That's what you need to do; Keep It Together (nevermind that Kit eventually <I>did it</I>, and was caught in the act by a waiting camera crew).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She says that she wants to go back to the way things were earlier this month, and we can have sex from time to time, because she doesn't want to go anywhere else but she needs me to stay focused on the finances and less on saving the marriage because it's making her crazy because I'm getting so frustrated, and unfocused. What do I do now? Can someone please give me a Damage Assessment please?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't let US tell you what to do, let HER. She just did. She says don't push the relationship stuff, mellow out, address the finances. Well, you and I know that Financial Support is one of her major ENs, so by focusing on that you are actually working on your marriage. <P>The occasional lovemaking, I think, may help you stay on an even keel...it did with me. <P>Don't punish yourself, imp, nobody has ever pulled off a perfect Plan A, imp...there are always setbacks and frustrations and blunders. Your W wants peace, safety, security....give her that, and a lot of the problems will go away. <P>You may want to consider some sort of anti-anxiety meds if you keep boiling over and lovebusting. Talk to your doctor. It is important for you to get under control at this stage.<P>

yes, I think control is the operative word at this point. She is very emotional right now. Our little blow up today led to her feeling completely drained today, and she vented by bedtime by saying she sometimes feels suicidal, but she would never act because of the kids. That made me feel like a real winner. Drive a beautiful, loving woman to suicide. Wow, when I graduated high school I wasn't voted most likely to drive his second wife to suicide. I'm starting my plan A from scratch tommorrow and I'm not deviating one bit. I think I can pull off the perfect plan A from here, I mean I've been butchering it for a month now. What kind of mediaction would help me at this point. I don't have a family doctor so what do i do look one up in the phone book , and say I need meds? Thanks everyone for your unbelievable support. I know I'm somewhat frustrating because I listen to advice, and I know the right thing to do but I sometimes allow my emotions to get the best of me. Well, she hasn't asked for a divorce, and she hasn't asked me to move out she just says she wants to be happy, and no pressure. So I can do that. No relationship talks, nno pressure, Just financial empowerment, and positivety!

Hey Impulsive,<P>I think that you are on the right track. Believe it or not, you do have a few things working for you:<P>1)You are both still under the same roof. Might not seem like much, but at least you can work on the things that you have been lacking at, and she gets to see these things.<P>2)There is no OM involved<P>3)You know what you want to do to save your marriage<P>Stay positive. I wish I could give you more advice then that, but considering that my marriage is crumbling daily, regardless what I do, I don't have much insight. I wish I was where you are now. When you start getting down, Ask yourself one very important question: How much do I love My wife. Look deep within yourself for this. From what you have written, I believe that you love her dearly. This is plenty of incentive to continue the path that you are on, and make everyday count. There will come a day that she will fall in love with you again. Just keep working on it. My prayers are with you. <BR>

"When one's expectations are reduced to zero, one really appreciates everything one does have." <P>Stephen Hawking<P><BR>Your reaction to sex is similar to what my H used to do. Every hope, wish and expectation he ever had of me came roaring out of the bag after SF and his Taker would go on a rampage. Any wonder why I have spent years in sexual aversion?

Griz, you just hang in there and things will brighten up sooner or later, I know it does not seem like it. Kareena you are absolutely right she gave me a little sex after 34 days and I lost my mind. Considering I haven't went that long without since my 16th birthday, I certainly lost perspective. My taker came out and kicked the crap out of my giver. Now my wife is sitting back saying boy, maybe I shouldn't have given him any. Well people I'm on a new journey starting today. Super Top Secret Plan AAA, I have my taker gaged, and duct taped in the trunk of my car, and I forgot how to talk about relationship, and feeling sorry for myself is a memory. I'm moving forward and refuse to be side tracked anymore by emotions. I need to ignore my emotions and focus on the mental discipline neccassary to turn this boat around in the other direction. The biggest challenge is going to be that she leaves for California for a week and I have to stay on even ground because the prospect of her leaving makes me want to establish some type committment from her, but I know I can't so I'm relaxing that was just my taker mumbling something stupid.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I don't have a family doctor so what do i do look one up in the phone book , and say I need meds? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I would be more concerned about your wife talking to someone, if she is having suicidal thoughts. <BR>

Impulsive,<P>Mike is right again. But it is <I>very</I> hard to question a wife's mental state. And statements like wife made <I>can</I> be used to manipulate <I>you</I>. My XW once asked me if I "want[ed] [her] to start cutting [her]self again or kill [her]self." It was a devastatingly effective tool to paralyze me from doing <I>anything</I> to keep trying to save the marriage. But it shouldn't have been.<P>If I had it to do over again, I think my tack would be to say that I loved her very much, I would never want that to happen, and since feelings about me were part of what was driving it, I <I>couldn't</I> be the one to talk to about it. But then I would be <I>insistent</I> that she talk to a doctor or at least a close friend (hopefully, a different friend than the one who is undermining your marriage) or relative (ditto). <P>I think there are natural desires to deny to yourself that you are any part of the problem, and also moments where you want to take <I>all</I> of it on your shoulders. As with almost everything else, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Don't expect her to see the truth now. But <I>do</I> expect that she will talk to someone other than you about those feelings, regardless of whether she feels close to acting on them. <P>This may be the lever you need to get into counseling. It is certainly a red flag. And I think it is one of the ultimate tests of a marriage, because there are extraordinary pressures on <I>you</I> now to go in all sorts of unproductive directions. <P>I ran the question "How can I help a person who is suicidal" on ask.com. This was the key link that came up: <A HREF="http://www.afsp.org/about/whattodo.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.afsp.org/about/whattodo.htm</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 07, 2001).]

The last couple of days have been pretty quiet, All of my energy has been directed toward no love busting, no relationship conversations, and earning income. I thought I was coming across calm and mellow, just before she left for work today, she asked me very seriously, "Have, I done anything to upset you that I don't know about?" I said why of course not, she said you just seem very quiet, like you only talk when spoken to. This may be a lovebuster, she always hated when I get ultra-quiet. I don't be trying to be quiet it just assures me I won't give in to my impulsive nature and start saying or doing something that would jeopardize my plan A somemore. I know that fun loving, and the first date persona is more attractive, but I really struggle with that because it's like a trigger. The more fun and closeness I feel I get sucked into I love you, and can we make this work, conversations. Same with the back rubs and affection. Am I jeopardizing or compromising my efforts by being quiet and non affectionate? Is it ok that I'm this way because it makes the probability of me talking relationship and pressuring her very, very low.

It looks like you've been right in the groove. If it took her two days to ask the question, you might be lying a little low, but she may also just be seeing the contrast to your usual ebullience.<P>I'd tell her something to the effect of "I'm sorry if I'm not paying enough attention to you. I'm focused on my work right now, but I need to remember to make time for you when you want it." That lets her know you're simply turning more serious, and puts the ball in her court for whatever other needs she wants met. With practice, you'll be able to get closer without overstepping. Meanwhile, she'll be opening more toward you.<P>She needs 5 hours of quality time a week, minimum. Try to give that without uninvited physicality, or letting the conversation turn toward long-term commitment questions. In time, you'll even get the hang of <I>"no strings"</I> sex, which is apparently a need of hers so powerful it can override whatever bad things she feels about the relationship. Again, for the most part you project that photonegative image of your former self, but if she's looking for something specific in you that she likes, you can let it out of its cage for just the amount of time it takes to satisfy her need.<P>As for that old depression question, you might look at <A HREF="http://www.copewithlife.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.copewithlife.com</A> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 08, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>"Have, I done anything to upset you that I don't know about?" I said why of course not, she said you just seem very quiet, like you only talk when spoken to.</B><P>Yeah, I've been there too. Sometimes you follow the golden rule, and when you can't think of anything nice to say, it comes off as surly or offended. My W said I was whipping between sulking and "walking on eggshells" and both of them soaked her in guilt, because she felt the blame for my unhappiness. I'm sure that is part of what you W is feeling.<P>This part takes a lot of strength. Again, I think the date analogy works well. If this was an early date with a girl you wanted to impressive, you wouldn't be lapsing into silence or dissolving into teary lovey-doveys. You would suck it up and be fun, make interesting conversation, be a fun date.....MAKE YOURSELF ATTRACTIVE <P><B>Am I jeopardizing or compromising my efforts by being quiet and non affectionate?</B><P>I think we are getting to the point where you can answer a lot of your own questions, young jedi.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 09, 2001).]

Well we are back to the bed issue again. I talked to her last night and told her that my entire body is sore like after a intense workout from sleeping on the couch for the last 40 days or so. She invited me to sleep in the bed reluctantly. I got the feeling that she really didn't want me there so I told her I don't feel comfortable sleeping somewhere I'm not wanted. Before you say STUPID get in the bed, understand that on several occassions she has mentioned that she has grown to like sleeping alone, and that before she started feeling sorry for me she had no desire for me to sleep in the bed. It is not a matter of pride, like she thinks it is, it's a matter of feeling like you only got asked to go to the dance because you had a broken leg, and the homecoming king's mom is friends with your mom so you get asked to go not because he really likes you but because of the symapthy factor. Can any of you girls relate?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I got the feeling that she really didn't want me there so I told her I don't feel comfortable sleeping somewhere I'm not wanted.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm starting to really feel sorry for your wife <P>You guilt her into inviting you into bed, which is what you wanted by complaining about your back, then you rejected her invitation because it was coerced....by you, of course. She must be wondering what she has to do to get it right.<P>C'mon, quit setting up lovebuster opportunities. <BR>

Impulsive, you are treading on the most dangerous ground. The really <I>huge</I> blowup in my now-long-gone marriage was prompted by a dispute over who slept in what bed.<P>You need to be cool here. The alternative is Chernobyl.

I was in the bed when she got home from work. I woke up and started to massage her. She resisted at first. She said that my massages were to expensive. Meaning that she enjoyed them but they cost a price later. I told her that would not be the case and she allowed me to give her a full body massage. During the massage she became aroused, (not my intention of course and we embarked upon a two hour sexual journey that took us places we haven't been in years. We fell asleep spooning in each other arms. When we woke up she asked me did I take advantage of her sexually last night or did she just have the most beautiful wet dream of her life? I told her the former. She said WOW! Thank you she hadn't had a orgasm that strong and forceful in years. We had a very light conversation. She said that her intention was to come home and tell me that if I didn't come back to the bed she and the kids were moving out. She said that she felt that the roller coaster ride of my emotions was way to much for her. She said that the night that we were watching T.V. in the bed, and she invited me to stay was the day that she said to her self Wow! maybe these changes are real. She said she felt closer to me that day then she had in years. However when I got out the bed she said it all came crashing down on her. She said that everything can be going fine. We start talking she'll say something I take as negative, and I withdraw and that makes her feel sick to her stomach, and gives her immediate headaches, and she feels like crap. She says that I have way to much emotion running through me and it's emotionally bankrupts her. So the bottom line is my plan A worked but I sabatoged it by being impatient and prideful. We decided that I move back in the bedroom, but I don't put any sexual pressure or relationship pressure on her, and that I keep focused on the positive changes I made and we take one day at a time. No relationship talks and no MOOD SWINGS! I've come to learn that the mood swings are as big love busters as the financial, trust, and attractive spouse issues. I finished HNHN and I came to the conclusion that over the course of our marriage I forsaked 9 out of the 10 of her main emotional needs. So the lesson learned is that there are consequences to actions and the type of pain I inflicted did not happen in a vacuum. She felt like I thought just because I changed I wanted her to put her feelings behind my feelings of fixing the mess, and that was exactly how she felt she got in the mess we are in by always putting her feeling on the back burner. So me dealing with my issues of insecurity, impatience and wanting a quick solution is paramount in us repairing our marriage. She didn't want sex at first because in the past we would have problems but we would talk and then have sex and then act like the problems disappeared. I'm learning alot about her needs and thoughts, but more importantly I'm learning about how my needs and thoughts are impacting on our future and her perception of me and us. So after everything is said and done, I guess I'm in alot better shape then I was 6 weeks ago. I just have to be patient and don't self destruct. Is this a accurate assessment?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<P>Okay, I had to go be by myself in the bathroom after reading your post It sounds like a breakthrough, impy buddy.<P><B>She said that her intention was to come home and tell me that if I didn't come back to the bed she and the kids were moving out.</B><P>Interesting...both that she was ready to take it to Defcon 4, AND that it was over that issue. On the one hand disturbing that her thoughts would include that alternative, on the other hand, it is nice that she feels strongly about getting you back in bed. <P><B>However when I got out the bed she said it all came crashing down on her.</B><P>Yeah, I think everyone here saw that one. Remember to consciously accept and reward any effort by her to reach out in the future. I think it takes a lot for her to summon the strength to reach out...to get the hand slapped is devastating.<P><B>No relationship talks and no MOOD SWINGS!</B><P>Yep. Although....you tell me, but it does seem like this was a pretty productive talk. What I miss in my own marital recovery is that when we were in formal counseling, once a week we could take each other's temperatures, and I learned a lot in those sessions about her likes and dislikes. The feedback was important. So, even though I've been harping on NO relationship talks....maybe, since things are getting back on track, she might be amenable to some sort of scheduled time once a week or every two weeks to give you feedback and make sure you stay on track. If you decide to suggest this to her, I would make sure that she understands that this is to be a talk focused on HER needs and how you are doing fulfilling them, and to discuss and lovebusting you might have done. <P>Maybe this is a concept that has to wait a little while...but I was struck by this thought when I read this comment from you: ""I'm learning alot about her needs and thoughts, but more importantly I'm learning about how my needs and thoughts are impacting on our future and her perception of me and us.""<P><B>I finished HNHN and I came to the conclusion that over the course of our marriage I forsaked 9 out of the 10 of her main emotional needs.</B><P>Before you have an aneurysm trying to address 9 unmet needs all at once, remember that not everyone has all ten...and Harley recommends identifying 5 and initially targetting he top 3. <P>All-in-all, it sounds like you are doing very well in such a short period of time. <P>Mike<BR>