It's funny how things can go from great to so so over night. I'm in the bed again and things are going o.k. but the lack of affection and connection is frustrating. Mike how do you deal with the lack of affection and connection? It's like every time I hug her or touch her she has to force herself to endure it. She doesn't want to pull away but she doesn't seem to enjoy the hug or touch. I torn between stop showing affection or just persist and block out my perception of her obvious discomfort. Has any one else experienced this situation?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>It's like every time I hug her or touch her she has to force herself to endure it.Has any one else experienced this situation? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep, that is a dsrag, and my W does do that on occasion still. I remember that behavior from her was what drove me to marital counseling...she was very deep into withdrawal, and had a hard time even maintaining a courtesy smile.<P>One of the things that sort of helped me during this was when I noticed that she would occasionally snarl at one of the kids when they were seeking affection....and, damn, I know she loves them But when she was busy or harassed, she doesn't like the being cuddled. <P>Moms get an awful lot of handling, and sometimes they just need their space. <P>In your case, you are back in the marital bed, and she may be supersensitive right now to her space. You should probably tiptoe your way in...if you are getting the cold shoulder, take that as sign that you need to play it cool a little (without being perceived as sulking or angry). Let her come to you.<P><BR> <BR>

While I wouldn't <I>offer</I> to leave the bedroom, I would take steps to deal with her aversion to affection.<P>Now that she has what she said she wanted (you to return to the bedroom), she finds it less attractive. It's an ugly little dynamic for her, because affection with you leads to all the things that she has said are problematic, while lack of affection from you leads to her concluding that you are living as brother and sister ... blah, blah, blah (should I be hipper hear and use <I>Yada</I>?). <P>So she has <I>narrowed</I> the range of behavior from you that she finds comfortable, and it's a tougher job for you to remain in that range ... and the range shifts frequently up or down. And likely, trying to communicate too much about it with her ... becomes problematic in its own way. Yuck. <P>So, what you need is greater sensitivity to her nonverbal cues. And a better sense of where you stand with her. Keep track of when you last reported a good result in your business. For that matter, be sure that you're keeping good track of your business and reporting it to her ... to the extent you have determined that it is a need or want of hers. You can keep setting an upbeat tone with upbeat news ... so long as it's <I>real</I>.

Ok, This is by far the most difficult thing I have ever had to do in my entire life! I think I'm at the point where I have to disengage. I think I'm way to close to this situation emotionally. She is on a totally different street. I'm getting increasingly frustrated from the roller coaster ride. If I disengage and shift my focus totally maybe then I will be able to save my marriage. I think that my constant vigilence is counter productive. I still love her to death. I still want to save my marriage. I don't and am not going to move out, but I need to get on her street. Her street is back off, stop trying to fix the marriage, and work on myself while she works on herself. She is not feeling the way I'm feeling and that is frustrating the heck out of me. It's a impossible situation. I'm not giving up. I still have the same long term goal, but my immediate focus is a little different. I think by backing away I will give her the space and independence she says she wants and needs to see things from a non pressure, objective perspective. Does this make sense to anyone or am I way off track?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I think that my constant vigilence is counter productive.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Blatant scrutiny is counterproductive. But nothing is more helpful than <I>mindfulness</I> and <I>sensitivity</I>. Don't <I>disengage</I>, but <I>do</I> pay attention to what she wants and doesn't want at any given time. And remember what <I>was missing</I>--that needs to be kept onstage, front and center. And whatever was <I>abundant</I>, perhaps beyond satiety and all the way to nausea, needs to be pushed to the background and well out of the spotlight. <P>Is it "walking on eggshells"? Well, it sure feels like that until you either get used to it or it's not necessary anymore. Likely, there will be a bit of both. You'll be more skilled and comfortable <I>reading</I> her, and she'll be looser with her thoughts, feelings and actions because she'll be back in intimacy. Keep to a moderate course in everything but the things that were previously extreme. Those latter items <I>swap</I> places until W gets back into intimacy.<P>

impulsive,<P>I'm relatively new to the board, but I've read through your whole story. One thing you mentioned gives me a little cause for concern. You said you W had a rough childhood - sexually abused. My question for you is this. Has she *ever* been through therapy regarding those issues?<P>Without boring you, here's my background. My W announced in early December (out of the blue) that she didn't want to be married any more. She had an emotional affair briefly in November which I had discovered, but I now see that as a symptom, not a cause of her desire for flight. She told me she didn't want to be married to anyone, period. She withdrew, became depressed... etc.<P>I leave a lot to be desired as a husband - we have been together for 12 years, married 9. I'm 35, she's 30. I discovered Harley in mid-december and have been working on the same books you are. I have been able to make her feel a lot better about being with me because I have made some major improvements in my attitude and behavior. My W seemed like she was having a MLC too - all the signs were there - she was freaked out about turning 30, didn't like her career, felt she had "lost herself"...<P>However... she also revealed to me, after about 6 weeks, that for the past 2-3 years she would have flashbacks to her child abuse (she was sexually abused by her father between the ages of 8 and 12). She began to associate sex, and me, with her past abuse and that was one of the main reasons she felt she could no longer be married. She was so confused about her feelings for me... again, due to the memories that she had repressed. Repressed or suppresed memoried of child abuse does not mean that the victim does not acknowledge something happened. But it does mean that they never fully experienced the hurt that they received, and this can manifest itself over time and result in unpredictable behavior, including changes in personality etc.<P>All I can say is DON'T assume that because your W has acknowledged abuse in her past that she is "over it". I became aware of my W's past shortly after we married, and I thought she was dealing with it. But acknowledging it does not mean accepting it. My W is now in therapy for her childhood issues. Things with us are very difficult right now, because she is unable to get too close to me. She's afraid to "trust" me, because prior to me, her father betrayed her trust completely. These kind of scars can fester for years, and resurface during traumatic times.<P>I'm not here to tell you what to do - just recommending that you be mindful of the possibility that your W's history *may* play a major role in what is now happening.<P>How can you tell? Well, your W has to trust you with her feelings... her most private thoughts. To do that, she must feel unpressured, and be assured that you are "safe" to talk to. That you won't respond by invalidating her feelings and trying to minimize her issues.<P>I know a quick fix to this looks appealing to you. I haven't had intimate relations with my W in almost 4 months (we used to, 3 times a week, for 12 years). Yet while I, too, get frustrated and take one step back for every two forwards, I have realized during my more rational moments that a slow, long term healing both of the past, and the relationship, is likely to create a much more solid, long lasting future.<P>Keep your hopes alive, take it slow. I know all this seemed to hit you out of the blue, but it didn't for your W. She felt the way she did for a long time, but didn't tell you in ways you could understand. So for her, this feeling has been here for a long time. Don't try to get it back all at once... build slowly, carefully, and if you believe her past issues may be a factor, help her root out whether that is the case, and get her the help she needs.<P>Best wishes,<P>JD

I have come to a point where I can no longer gravel, and beg, and neglect my basic emotional needs for the purpose of saving something she does not want to save. If she was saying "I want to be married but, I need reassuring from you." I could plan a until the next leap year. However this is not the situation. I'm being loving and caring, compassionate, and focused on being the type of husband I should have been for the last 6 years. The issue is now that no matter how perfect I'm being now she doesn't care! She doesn't want to be married. All she wants to do is get her finances together, and get herself totally self reliant, and go her separate way. While I'm plan A ing, she focused on Wow, he is so nice now, I bet he'll make someone a great husband. I have to live for me and my kids. I have to maintain these changes for a lifetime. As much as I love her I can't make her love me. I respect all of the Harley's concepts but Plan A is awful close to trying to force someone to love you. I have never believed in that, nor do I now. There is a thin line between taking repsponsibility for your actions and being a damn fool for someone. I've grown and learned from my mistakes, and I'm a better man for it. I just can't continue sitting here and hoping she turns around one day. The fact that no one has commented on is what happens when you Plan A for 4 years and she never turns around? You plan A for 2 yars and some Prince Charming sweeps her off her feet. You have just wasted 2 or 4 years neglecting your needs to get through to someone who doesn't want to be gotten through to. Life is way to short for that! I love her, and I won't do anything to destroy what's left of our marriage, but I also won't continue to bend over backwards trying to fight for a marriage she does not want. You can say what you want but, I believe it takes two to save a marriage. If you have two willing participates ready to work towards and sacrifice towards a common goal then anything is possible. Plan A is a low percentage, long shot, because there is only one party actively trying to save the marriage. I had self esteem issues during my depression while I was neglecting her needs. That is what got us here. Plan A does not help my self esteem issues. Constantly graveling, begging, and feeling neglected in order to secure someone elses approval is not acceptable in my life any longer.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Plan A is a low percentage, long shot, because there is only one party actively trying to save the marriage. I had self esteem issues during my depression while I was neglecting her needs. That is what got us here. Plan A does not help my self esteem issues. Constantly graveling, begging, and feeling neglected in order to secure someone elses approval is not acceptable in my life any longer. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No. It is a high-percentage shot in this instance. Every day that you Plan A correctly, she is drawn back toward you just a bit. She trusts just a bit more. Even if she still carries through with the plan to move out ... it will likely be brief, and will precipitate a quick, shocking realization of what she has lost. And you'll have her back for good. <P>Your <B>taker</B> is rearing its ugly head bigtime. But if you're groveling and begging, you're also not doing a good Plan A. The objective is to show her she'd be losing a great guy, not some gum that was stuck to her shoe. Will you have smaller self esteem issues after you <I>blow it</I>? Believe me. I've been there. I've lived it. If your Plan A is good, you will have no regrets--even for the "lost" time (it won't seem lost--it will feel more like dues <I>paid</I>). If you drop out ... you'll have <I>every</I> regret.<P>Stay the course.

Imp,<P>I feel for you buddy. I am still in plan A, and watching my STBXW pack her stuff. She is getting on with her life. And that life no longer includes me. Does the neglect hurt? Sure it does. But in the long run, I will be a better person, father, and friend because of Plan A. I know how easily it is to just give up. My STBXW has made it painfully obvious what she wants (or does not want), and the OM gets to reap the benefits. Will I quit Plan A? No. At least not right now. I feel myself becoming the person that I should have been in the beginning. <P>You need to take control of your Taker. Make him stay in his dark, dank dungeon. Focus on your self and on your kids. If your W decides that she is moving on without you, you will have to face that obstacle when the time comes. I have faith in you. Remember to take it one day at a time. Show her with actions what type of person you are becoming. You truly will be a better person in the long run because of it. <P>Griz<P>------------------<BR>Sometimes the hardest journeys in life are not the ones you embark on alone, but those that you choose to travel together.<p>[This message has been edited by Griz (edited March 13, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I have come to a point where I can no longer gravel, and beg, and neglect my basic emotional needs</B><P>Whoa, there hoss. Back up. Grovel and beg? Somebody must have given you the April Fools Plan A Manual if anything you are doing is resembling groveling and begging. First off, groveling and begging are flat out unattractive, and making yourself the most attractive mate you can be is Goal One of Plan A. And a major rule of Plan A is don't exhibiti any behavior that you wouldn't commit to for the rest of your life. <P>As far as "neglecting your basic emotional needs"...well....it takes two to get them met. I wouldn't say you are neglecting them...you are embarking on a much needed campaign to safeguard that they get met for the rest of your life. By this woman. <P><B>I'm being loving and caring, compassionate, and focused on being the type of husband I should have been for the last 6 years.</B><P>Sort of like she was for six years?<P><B>The issue is now that no matter how perfect I'm being now she doesn't care! She doesn't want to be married.</B><P>Probably correct. <P>We are all here because of that problem. Plan A isn't a tactic for a sunny day, it is a strategy to give your marriage the best chance it has to recover and thrive. There are no guarantees. And, as the saying goes, it isn't for wimps. Most of us are here trying to make up for years of neglect. <P>Yes, it s#$ks that our spouses have lost that loving feeling for us, but in most cases it is a self-inflicted wound. It sounds like the seriousness of the situation is crowding you today. Giving up is always an option. But the realization of your dilemma should reinvigorate you to try harder.<P><B>Plan A is a low percentage, long shot, because there is only one party actively trying to save the marriage.</B><P>Whether it is a long shot or a sure shot is situation specific. In some cases it is too late. Personally, I don't feel that is the situation in your case. Do you?<P>Yes....having an enlightened and motivated spouse brings things further and faster. Most of us don't have that advantage. I don't, and that was the subject of my talk with Steve Harley this week. It is a longer road, and more of a burden, but it is still a viable strategy. And, unless you are willing to give up on your family, which I am not, it is the best strategy, and best investment of your time. <P>AND....on a monthly basis, charted out, I have gotten more of my needs met every month by my spouse. You've come a long way since you first posted...you have to perfect a consistent pattern of loving behavior, and then your W has to come to trust it. Then her attitude will change.<P>Look.....72 hours ago you were posting on here reporting that you were back in bed for the first time giving her rollicking orgasms, and she was happy and you had the Plan A vision nailed down. You seem to be flying high and crashing hard on a regular basis. It is fine to come on here and vent, but if this pattern is extending to your behavior at home....well....you pessimism over your chances is accurate, unless you can show more discipline. You have to put forth a CONSISTENT front....she can't be wondering whether it is Jekyl or Hyde next to her in bed this morning, not if you want to coax her heart out of its shell. <P>And, I hate to break the news to you, but if you can't master the discipline of a pattern of consistent loving, attractive behavior, your next relationship is unlikely to fare any better.<P>So get back with the program! You can do it, hang in there.<P>Mike<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 13, 2001).]

Imp,<P>A couple other things I forgot to mention. I wrote once that you had to honestly ask yourself how much you loved your W. The other question that you have to honestly ask yourself is:<P>Have I done everything possible, and I mean <I>everything</I> to save my marriage?<P>Unfortunately, I believe that when we are faced with the situations that we are faced with, we run the risk of depleting our own love bank, which would put us in withdrawal as well. You can not allow yourself to become withdrawn. You need to be able to look back on this time and you need to be able to tell yourself that you did everything possible for this marriage. If you can’t do that, then I agree with Sis, you will have <I>regrets</I>. My own Love bank has been seriously jeopardized these last few weeks. But I can look back and honestly tell myself, that I did everything possible to save my marriage. The choices that I now live with are hers alone. <P>I also agree mith Mike. Plan A is not for <B>wimps</B>. You need to be consistent. This is some of the hardest stuff you will probably ever have to do. Don't throw in the towel yet.<P>I will keep praying for you. Ask God for strength my friend. And if you need to chat, email me: Griz1973@yahoo.com<P>Griz

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I have come to a point where I can no longer gravel, and beg, and neglect my basic emotional needs for the purpose of saving something she does not want to save.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You'd better <I>not</I> neglect your basic emotional needs, or you'll run out of the emotional resources you need to continue wooing your wife. What you need to do is find ways to get these needs met that don't depend on your wife.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I need to get on her street. Her street is back off, stop trying to fix the marriage, and work on myself while she works on herself.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You got it! But you keep forgetting it. You can't <I>make</I> your wife see that she's better off with you, and that shouldn't be your goal. "Fixing" your marriage shouldn't be your goal either. To do that implies that you are in control, and not only are you <I>not</I> in control, but you shouldn't <I>want</I> to be, since the only way your marriage can survive is if your wife commits to it <I>of her own free will</I>. <P>So work on yourself, encourage her to work on herself, stop looking for instant results, and concentrate on loving her, <I>no strings attached</I>.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I respect all of the Harley's concepts but Plan A is awful close to trying to force someone to love you. I have never believed in that, nor do I now. There is a thin line between taking responsibility for your actions and being a damn fool for someone. I've grown and learned from my mistakes, and I'm a better man for it. I just can't continue sitting here and hoping she turns around one day.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Plan A is <I>not</I> about forcing someone to love you. And there is no line at all between taking responsibility for your actions and being a fool. Respect your wife's ability to choose. What she chooses is <I>her</I> responsibility. And if <I>you</I> choose to be a "fool" and invest so much energy into your relationship with your wife without any certainty of getting anything in return, then you had better take responsibility for that choice yourself. When you make a choice, you are implicitly accepting the consequences of that choice. If you know what the costs may be, and you make the choice anyway, then you have no one to blame but yourself.<P>I don't mean to be harsh here. There are plenty of people who would tell <I>me</I> that <I>I'm</I> being a fool for maintaining hope for <I>my</I> marriage, and I'm in a much more dubious position than you are, believe me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The fact that no one has commented on is what happens when you Plan A for 4 years and she never turns around? You plan A for 2 yars and some Prince Charming sweeps her off her feet. You have just wasted 2 or 4 years neglecting your needs to get through to someone who doesn't want to be gotten through to. Life is way to short for that!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your name really <I>should</I> be "impatient", shouldn't it? Your roller-coaster has only been going for a few weeks, with unbelievably rapid progress, and here you are already talking about Plan A-ing for years.<P>Well, OK, it <I>could</I> take that long. It could take longer. It could take the rest of your life! In spite of my teasing, and even though things appear to be going far better for you than you seem to feel, it is not inappropriate for you to be aware of this possibility. So be prepared to dig in, and don't neglect your own needs.<P>Assuming, that is, that you are still willing to give your wife a chance, instead of doing unimaginable additional damage to your wife by abandoning her now, after all she's already been through.<P>For myself, if I spend the rest of my life living alone and "waiting for" my wife - who refuses to have anything to do with me (except for extorting money) - I will not consider my life to have been wasted. Not many people get everything they want. But <I>I</I> have my faith, my hope, my love, and my integrity. Life is too short to give <I>that</I> up, and no one can take it away from me. As long as I have all that, I trust that God will find ways for my life to count for something.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I had self esteem issues during my depression while I was neglecting her needs. That is what got us here. Plan A does not help my self esteem issues. Constantly graveling, begging, and feeling neglected in order to secure someone elses approval is not acceptable in my life any longer.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good. Don't grovel, don't beg, and don't allow yourself to feel neglected. Instead of depending on someone else's approval, do what you know is right and find strength in <I>God's</I> approval.<P>I'm not making light of this, and I'm not saying it's easy. I too have wrestled with self-esteem issues and depression, largely due to a failure to differentiate between what was my responsibility and what was actually out of my control.<P>What may help, what certainly helped me, was to focus on understanding my wife's experiences and perspective. You are <I>way</I> too focused on your <I>own</I> feelings and reactions to what is going on in your marriage. Don't get me wrong: it is very important that you do keep aware of your feelings and reactions, but a bit more empathy for your wife would probably do you a world of good.<P>For starters, you might start trying to learn about how your wife's early experiences with abuse have affected her. As isitme suggested, these experiences may be far more significant than either of you realize. If <I>I</I> had understood the difference between acknowledgement and acceptance ten years ago, my own marriage might have gone very differently...<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>So what's the glory in living?<BR>Doesn't anybody ever stay together any more?<BR>And if love doesn't last forever, tell me<BR>What's forever for?</I> - Rafe Van Hoy

Wow... really awesome advice on this post! All of you have stood to the plate and hit homers in my book! I've learned a lot. But...<P>When you've been in Plan A for a while without obvious response of your spouse, at best - at worst, spouse happy you've changed, soaked up all the ENs your dishin' and still decides to leave - doesn't Harley say the NATURAL consequences to this is that you will fall out of love with your spouse? <P>One cannot make the spouse stay... if an unbeliever chooses to leave, let them go... God is a God of peace (1 Cor)? Maybe I'm wrong here but in my situation, I really can relate to DCope and Impulsive here...<P>Forgive my pessimism/skepticism... I do agree that Plan A should be no strings attached and it ultimately will make us better people but why do we have expectations that something will change!? They say "hope floats" and it's so hard to keep it down yet there are times when ya just want to give up! Sooner or later our own ENs will go belly up and then what? Yes, love is a choice... <P>What's the right thing?<P>------------------<BR>Doing what you like is freedom... Liking what you do is happiness

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>Forgive my pessimism/skepticism... I do agree that Plan A should be no strings attached and it ultimately will make us better people but why do we have expectations that something will change!? They say "hope floats" and it's so hard to keep it down yet there are times when ya just want to give up! Sooner or later our own ENs will go belly up and then what? Yes, love is a choice...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We have <I>hope</I> (not necessarily expectations) that something will change because something <I>did</I> change. Plan A is about restoring something that once existed, about changing something <I>back</I>. Of course, a successful Plan A must then be followed by <I>further</I> positive change if the marriage is to thrive, but that's another story...<P>I don't see how one could execute a successful Plan A if one wasn't getting most of one's emotional needs met. To make it work, you just (ha!) need to find ways of meeting those needs that do not depend on your wayward partner.<P>If this is not possible, if the funds in one account can no longer cover the overdraft in your partner's account, then I don't see how you can continue.<P>Perhaps this is the point where you "naturally" fall out of love. Or perhaps that happens earlier, and this is instead the point of emotional collapse. Perhaps it differs for different people and for different situations. I really don't know.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>What's the right thing?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can speak only for myself. Everyone has to make their own choices, and often the choice is among several justifiable alternatives.<P>Some people tend to choose paths with the best possible outcome, however unlikely that outcome may be. Other people tend to choose paths that avoid any chance of the worst possible outcome. Still others tend to choose paths that maximize the probability of <I>some</I> acceptable outcome. And yet others just react without thinking.<P>Just remember that whatever you choose, you will have to live with the consequences.<BR>

I will take some time and decide what is the best way for me to proceed with my life. I'm very, very lonely right now. I need to be close to someone and that is not possible with the one I want to be close to so what you going to do? I'm having a difficult time dealing with the guilt from the devestation I caused in my marriage. That is why it seems more feasible to get on with my life and except the reality of the situation.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I will take some time and decide what is the best way for me to proceed with my life. I'm very, very lonely right now. I need to be close to someone and that is not possible with the one I want to be close to so what you going to do? I'm having a difficult time dealing with the guilt from the devestation I caused in my marriage. That is why it seems more feasible to get on with my life and except the reality of the situation.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Once again, you are allowing short-term pain to eclipse long-term progress. You are periodically allowed to be close to your W. Don't hold the guilt. You have confessed your wrongdoing and been cleansed already. If you recognize that fact and live accordingly, in time your W will likely be moved to join you. Accepting the reality of the situation and getting on with your life are not the same as accepting defeat and moving on with your life. <P>Stay where you are. Do the things you need to do. Let time heal the wounds. If you received <I>instant gratification</I> for your changes, how deeply rooted do you think they would be? Let the change take root, and let her see it and feel it. <P>Right now, your silver ball is looping lazily around the board, and you're ready to abandon the flippers and let it drain just because it's not slamming crazily among the triple-bonus bumpers. More calmness, more patience, are called for here. And go easy on the body english.<P>

Two points:<P>Definition: <B>EN's are the things you need to see and experience in order to feel head over heels "in love."</B> <P>But it is certainly possible to do a 100% Plan A when none of the EN's are being met by spouse or anyone else. That is almost ALWAYS how it is done!<P>How do you perfect Plan A when spouse is a LB'ing SOB? Or totally withdrawn WS?<P>You have to CENTER yourself. BE the person of honor and integrity. Give love without expectation of receiving. If you are too emotionally dependent on your spouse or on having the relationship, you will fail. <P>Many writers have addressed this. They call it different things. Basically, you have to adopt your own core values, not based on selfishness or materialism or other people. From your core, you can stand firmly and make good decisions. Then you can soothe yourself, set appropriate boundaries, and practice a winning Plan A!<P>This is quite different from getting most of your en's met! It is about personal growth and character developement. Not easy, but worth it.<BR><P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I will take some time and decide what is the best way for me to proceed with my life. I'm very, very lonely right now. I need to be close to someone and that is not possible with the one I want to be close to so what you going to do? I'm having a difficult time dealing with the guilt from the devestation I caused in my marriage. That is why it seems more feasible to get on with my life and except the reality of the situation.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good idea. Give the matter a good think. And while you're thinking, consider this: although it <I>seems</I> more feasible right now to put everything behind you and just "get on" with your life, and although that would indeed be easier in the short-term, how do you think you're going to feel in long run?<P>You're already suffering from feelings of guilt from dragging your wife down once. But now that you have gone a long way toward restoring her faith in you, now that you have given her reason to hope and trust again, you are talking about shattering that hope and trust all over again.<P>Do you think that's going to make you feel good? Hmm?<P>Things are going better for your you than <I>anyone</I> in your position has any right to expect. I would be thanking God constantly if my wife were giving me the opportunities your wife is giving you, and I don't even have anything to be ashamed of with respect to my relationship with my wife. But your emotions keep bouncing up and down.<P>That's not a criticism. Your emotional crashes are understandable and probably inevitable, especially given the way you have thrown yourself into your restoration program. You are right to be concerned about burning out. So <I>take steps to prevent that from happening</I>.<P>First, decide whether you are committed to your marriage or not. If you are (and in my personal opinion you would be a fool not to make that commitment), then <I>find ways to replenish your emotional resources</I>. Don't look to your wife for this, but <I>don't neglect it</I>.<P>I have had many friends and family members step up in support of me. They were more than willing to do so, but I had to reach out to them before I could get that support. If you're worried about being needy, spread your needs around so that no single person is burdened with everything. Don't neglect your goals, such as improving your physical condition and boosting your business, but be sure to give yourself some rewards on occasion too. Sometimes the more selfless you are, the more selfish you need to be. You can't give what you don't have, so make sure you've always got something to give.<P>Remember, if you want your marriage to succeed, this is not a short-term campaign that you can let up on if and when your wife decides marriage to you is actually something she wants. Whatever decision you make, you'd better make it for the long haul. Fortunately, if you can stay the course during this crisis period, both you and your wife will have every reason to be confident in your ability to stay the course indefinitely. It will become far easier once you and your wife are feeding each other.<P>Your chances look extremely good right now if you don't throw in the towel. The missteps you have made thus far are all minor. But if you give up now and blow it, I wouldn't care to bet that you'll ever get another chance.<P>So think <I>very</I> carefully, won't you?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B>But it is certainly possible to do a 100% Plan A when none of the EN's are being met by spouse or anyone else. That is almost ALWAYS how it is done!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm. On reflection, I believe you're right. I can't imagine going through this kind of situation without ample external support, but I'd guess that that support doesn't generally come via the kind of things Harley lists as ENs.<BR>

You made some very good points. I don't want to throw in the towel, but I think the strain of plan A is draining me emotionally. It's not that I don't want my marriage but the lack of tangible evidence of progress is a bottomless pit. It kills me everyday. I don't have the emotional energy left to sustain the plan A long term under the present circumstances. Something has to change. My up and down moods drains her just as much. She hates my roller coaster moods. I don't want to be that way because i see it as a love buster and I'm not doing any other love busting but the mood swings are uncontrollable. If things are going good, or positive I'm the nicest person in the world. When she says something negative I don't react angry, I just feel so depressed and hopeless that I get so quiet it frustrates her and me. I don't like the situation but it's not like it's just a discipline thing. It's chemical, or mental or something because I don't have any control over it. So when people say suck it up, or be discipline that's not it because I'm very discipline in all other aspect of my life that I changed.