This week my W has been and is going to be out/away for four nights in a row. Weds. it was an art class. I think she really did go to this class, because she brought back stuff to show me, but also think she did other things too (I'm sure you can guess what) because she was gone nearly 5 hours. Last night, same thing, only this time supposedly dinner with a woman friend, out for about the same length of time. Tonight and tomorrow night it's off to a condo belonging to a member of her women's group, in the next state. The group is supposed to be staying there together and they probably are. But, again, I suspect my W has more planned than just that. Because I know that this is her M.O. She always has legitimate errands or activities to account for her time away, but manages to work in a tryst with the OM too.<P>So when she got back from her dinner date late last night, I lost it. She was all dressed up and when I saw how gorgeous she looked, I just KNEW she'd been with HIM. I wouldn't have blown up, I don't think, if she hadn't asked me, "Is something wrong?" Well, that did it. I told her what was wrong in no uncertain terms. I did raise my voice but didn't resort to name-calling. Just repeated everything that I've told her countless times before, including that I know she's cheating on me. She didn't even really react very much to my explosion except to tell me to keep my voice down because the neighbors could hear. When I was through, I told her I wanted her to leave and stalked out. Haven't talked to her since.<P>Look. I've tried everything. I Plan A'ed it for 1/2 year, I raised the issue in counseling, I wasted an inordinate amount of time snooping on her, I tied myself into an emotional pretzel trying to make some progress on this. The plain fact is this. If a betrayer refuses to admit that she's having an affair and at the same time refuses to give up the affair, there's not a whole lot the betrayed can do other than go crazy. I guess what I finally decided was that she isn't ever going to confess her affair and there's nothing I can do to make her confess it. And our couples counselor refused to take this issue (or any of my other ones) seriously - thank God we've seen the last of HIM. Also, that I do not want to be in a relationship that's based on this kind of dishonesty and lack of respect, but at the same time I do not want to be the one to break up the marriage. She's been making noises about leaving pratically since we tied the knot, so I've finally decided to call her bluff. If you want to leave then leave. And you know what? I think it IS a bluff, because I don't see any signs that she's actually GOING to leave. But the fact is, if she does, I going to let her. I am simply, absolutely fed up with this marriage! I give up!<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

morning wex, I am sorry to read that things have not improved for you. I was hoping the end of that "counselor" would bring some positive things into your marriage.<BR>I really have no words of wisdom for you, nor do I understand your wife! <BR>Just go slow...take your time to make decisions. A cool period for a few days may be good. Should be easier with her being gone for a few days.<BR>What is up with the women's group? I think there may be more to that.<BR>Can only send you hugs and prayers wex.<BR>(((wex))) cl

Wex, I hope you find the peace you need.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Yowsa, Wex. You're worked up today. I've been following your story ... never had much advice for you cauz frankly I can't figure out what's going on in your wife's brain. She's definitely one cool cucumber ... and seems to be enjoying making you crazy.<P>But, Wex ... can you kick her out without evidence? I mean, all she's gonna do is whine to everyone "He kicked me out and I didn't do anything ... he's accusing me of having an affair, but has no evidence to back it up."<P>As usual, it's her word against yours.<P>I'm sorry you're in so much pain, and you don't deserve it. You've tried your butt off, I know that. We all know that.<P>I wish you only the best.

Aw Wex......I am so sorry!<P>I don't understand something....<P>1) You and Wife are having problems<BR>2) You have gone to counseling (albeit-not the best counseling!)<BR>3) Your wife knows of your fears of an affair (although she denies)<BR>4) Your Wife continues her social activities without you<P>My confusion is - why would she continue to feed your suspicions (fears) with this going out all the time when she knows that it adds to your suspicions.<P>Was this not addressed in counseling? How can you have any trust when she is consistantly causing mistrust by her actions.<P>Is there a problem, like you never want to do anything? I remember one time about going to a concert or something and you didn't want to go. Do you and she do things together?<P>What's the deal here Wex? This doesn't make sense to me at all!!!<P>HUGS, STRENGTH and PRAYERS,<P>Sheba

Wex -- A hug. Hope you can find some solitude over the weekend. Sorry about the turn of events.

Icky Wex...<P>Man, you've got to get some proof!!<P>Just sending you some big hugs today... I'm so sorry you're going through this.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Wex:<P>I'm sorry to hear about this turn of events, but I agree with what you've decided. One way or the other, it needs to come to a head. You can't live in this version of limbo forever. It's going to kill you.<P>We'll all be here for you no matter what happens. Keep us posted.

Hey, Wex: What's up with your wife flaunting herself to you, when she's all dolled up, and then acting confused when you call her on it? Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with her wanting to look good when she goes out, but it seems to me that she is enjoying setting you off. Is she trying to make you jealous, or what?<P>I know how you feel about giving up with the confession thing. Some people will never admit what they have/are doing, and there comes a time when we have to learn to accept it, or move on.<P>As for her constant threats to leave, well, you know, I've "been there, done that." When I brought the same thing up in counselling, my H looked astonished that I would have even considered the idea that he would have left me. I don't know if it is the mate's insecurities, or what, but some feel the need to wield a threat over their SO's head, to show a force of power. Sounds to me like she is dealing with problems of her own, and not necessarily adultery related.<P>Look, you have tried everything, and you still seem to be getting nowhere. I know the cost of a PI is expensive, but, have you ever considered renting a car, and following her yourself? What's the most if will cost you? It shouldn't put too big a dent in your pocketbook, but it should save much in the way of your sanity. Why not give it a try? Lots of luck, and go easy on the "hootch."<P>As Always,<P>------------------<BR><BR>SUCCESS STORY<P>

Wex, - boy do I know how you feel. UGGGHHH UGGGHHH twice.<P>Your stupid counselor probably was coaching her to be non-co-dependent, and probably has no regard for the Harley principles whatsoever. How in the heck can you get beyond where you are at in the marriage without honesty, is beyond me. I suppose your counselor blamed you for your wife not being honest.... kinda the same tune as out counselor.... I know EXACTLY how you feel.<P>Deny deny deny. Little Miss Perfect, huh? UGGHHH.<P>Well, if it's any consolation whatsoever, I have decided that if he wants to go he certainly can also. What else can you do? I totally understand.<P>I only wished the newsletter had been on the "predisclosure plan A" or "B", because I think this is the worst place to be when you Know that you Know, and they deny deny deny.<P>Hugs to you.<BR>TNT

Maya, I have no plans to "kick her out." That's just something I would never do to my W. If she wants to stay, she can certainly stay.<P>Everyone - But here's the status. If she stays, I really am going to insist that we move to something like an open marriage. Don't like the idea, but don't really see any alternative if she's going to behave the way she seems to want to. I feel that would be better than her sneaking around and lying. I have a feeling that we probably will stay together. If we were going to split, I think we would have a long time ago. I've blown up at her like this before and said much worse things, though not in quite a while. Last night I didn't call her any bad names (like I did before) and didn't slam doors. Just told her in emphatic tones what was on my mind and then went down to my basement cave for the rest of the night. I am glad she's going to be away for a couple of days even if it means she's seeing the OM. (More to say on that subject in my individual responses.) And this just in. I just talked with her on the phone as she's getting ready to leave for the weekend and said I was sorry I blew up. (I'm not sorry for what I said, which is true, just for the loud voice in which I said it.) So, we'll see. W and I have a museum date for Sun. afternoon when she gets back.<P>Distressed - Thanks. Well, I've been racking my brains for the past year trying to figure out how to live with this situation and either her leaving or making it an open marriage seem to be the only ways. And it doesn't look like she wants to leave, God knows why not....<P>Janie, NB and FHL - Thanks for the hugs, prayers and well wishes. I can always use plenty of those. I probably made it sound worse than it is, but you never know. I sure am not feeling great right now.<P>Sheba (warrior princess!) - We do go out together to things like movies, concerts, museums, etc. Not a lot but mainly because we can't afford it, not because I'm unwilling. I did tell my W she was free to go out without me, because there are things she likes to do that I don't. It was just the 4 nights in a row and spending most of the weekend away that pushed me over the edge. I tried to raise all these issues in counseling but my W just used these sessions to validate her own viewpoint and our couples counselor pretty much just went along with her to my total disbelief and horror. That's why I really feel we'll do better without it.<P>Maya again - That's the thing though. I DO have evidence. I've seen her with OM, I've found semen stains that couldn't have been mine on her panties (not proud I did this, but I had to know), and I have records of her making phone calls from a motel other than the one she was supposed to be staying at and from a motel room other than the one she was supposed to be staying in. To say nothing about a whole heap of circumstantial evidence. Once when I spied on her from the bushes in town last summer, I saw her walking along in an outfit that included some VERY sexy hot pants. (She looked like a hooker, frankly.) But then when I got home, she'd changed outfits and she lied and told me that the outfit she now had on (non-sexy) was the one she'd worn when she went out. Once when I came home early, she was standing naked in the bedroom and hadn't just gotten out of the shower. (OM may even have been hiding in a closet or under the bed, I didn't look.) And so on and so on.<P>cl - Thanks for the hugs and prayers. It actually does make me feel better to know people are beaming their well wishes in my direction. I don't understand my W either. She's been in this women's group practically since I met her. She and friends organized it a few months after I met her. I've met all the women in the group. We've even socialized with some of them. They spend these weekends together every few months or so and my W did tell me that on one of these weenends they smoked joints and danced around naked, so it sure ain't no Bible study group!<P>R & B,<P>--Wex

Instead of torture yourself about this affair you suspect your wife is having (but never seem to get any proof about), HIRE A PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR!<P>At least then you will know for sure if she is having an affair or not, and you will have the proof you need to confront your wife (if she is having an affair) and move onto the next step!<P>If you don't do anything to find out you are leaving the ball completely in the other person's court. You have to take control SOMETIME and find out for yourself. Just go out and hire a PI, at least for your own peace of mind if nothing else.<P><P>------------------<BR>~~ Elixir ~~<BR>

why me, TNT - Didn't mean to leave you all out! I think we must have been posting about the same time and yours just arrived ahead of my (long-winded) one.<P>TNT - Yeah, I think it's good to compare counseling experiences. Helps us both to realize that we're not crazy. There do seem to be some people like your H and my W who are just bound and determined never to admit that they done wrong in any way. Yes, my W does try and present herself as Little Miss Perfect even though she's far from it. (At one point in her life she was a drug dealer, for God's sake! And I know that she lies whenever it suits her purpose without feeling the slightest bit of guilt. I lie sometimes but feel guilty as hell, even when it's a little white lie.) But you'd think a professional like a couples counselor would have the sense and training to see through this routine. In our case, I think she simply turned on the charm. Once, when he wanted to charge us for a missed session, she actually talked him out of it. (Bullied him is more like it!)<P>why me - I know she enjoys setting me off. Also knows that she likes to dress up as sexy as possible just to torment me, when she has no intention of seducing me. She's done this more times than I care to think about. So I end up being a weird combination of turned on and p1ssed off! As to counseling, yes, she constantly denies things she's said and that amazes me to. We'll be in a session and I'll repeat to our counselor something she said and she'll look amazed and deny that she said it! No wonder our couples counselor ended up thinking I was a pathological liar! The heck of it is, some very guilty people are also very skilled at playing innocent. Well, I am planning on renting a car and following her at some point. I'm also saving up to hire a P.I. I took so much heat during our last two (and final) counseling sessions, that put a big dent in my snooping activities. But I'm starting to recover now. If I can, I am going to get photos of her and OM together. Let her try and deny that!<P>R & B,<P>--Wex

elixir - As I told why me, I am saving up to hire a P.I. Make take awhile, as one that I consulted estimated 40 hrs or surveillance at $50/hr. The thing is I actually do have plenty of evidence to satisfy myself (see my response to Maya) but nothing I can actually confront her with. For that, I would need either pictures of her and OM, or confronting them when they're together. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Hey, Wex....<P>What did/does your wife do as a job/career? Just wondering, as I ponder the way she thinks.<P>You mentioned staying together with an "open" marriage. You're probably just blowing steam? While your W may be fine with that, would you be? <P>Hang in there. I've been keeping up with your story too.

Forgive me, Wex, but I have to ask.....<P>Is it possible that your wife could be hooking?<P>Just a thought, since you said that she looked like a hooker in those hot pants..

Wex,<BR>Why don't you just go with her, no matter where she goes ? For her art class, give her a ride and either wait for her there or go get coffee. Make it difficult for her so that she either tries other ways or confesses.<P>Can you just put your foot down and say NO you are not going out tonite. You say you can't afford thinsg but it doesn't seem to effect her.<P>I don't know what else to offer.<BR>At least my w didn't lie(that makes me feel a lot better !) about her affair when I confronted her.<P>Sorry man, this really sucks!!!

RWD - I can't tell her what to do. I've tried, we just get into a fight, and then she goes out and does what she dmaned well pleases. (Went out one night after one of our fights, said she was going to a movie, but couldn't tell me what it was about when I asked her the next day.) Yeah, reading your posts about your situation, I would always think, well, at least his W is telling him the truth and admitting her affair. My best guess is that my W actually does want to stay married. Why, at this stage, except for finances, I really don't know. I'm guessing that she needs the security and OM isn't willing to provide it.<P>Sweetpea - LOL! But you know, the thought HAS occurred to me. She has had sexual experiences with a LOT of men (and that's just the ones she told me about). No, she just likes to wear sexy outfits when she goes out, whether it's "by herself" (aka to tryst with OM) or with me. She likes the looks she gets. She went to a wine-tasting and dance last week, ostensibly with a woman friend, wearing a double-slit miniskirt that should have gotten her arrested! My problem is, I love it when she dresses up like this too! I also think that, in her own way, she tries to be "faithful" to the OM, disgusting as that concept is. Plus, if she were hooking, I think we'd be in a lot better financial shape that we are!!<P>Lucks - Thanks for the encouragement. My W is a consultant who works out of her home office and does pretty well at it. Our children (none together) are grown, so she certainly has a flexible enough schedule to make her affair work. I figure they see each other for a couple of hours in the late afternoon or early evening (before I get home from work) maybe 2 or 3 times a week, have "dates" maybe 4 or 5 nights a month and meet in other cities when she travels professionally, which is 4-5 times a year. The "open marriage" idea is partly a way to make her feel safe about admitting her affair, but I don't think she's going to admit it anyway, because she knows that then, she'd have to give it up. So I'VE given up on the idea that she's ever going to confess. She just ain't. So I'll just have to catch them, I guess.<P>R & B,<P>--Wex

hi wex,<BR>I admit that the open marriage issue came up here too. Have many of the same thoughts as you do about it. Why would it not work? I think that it might have something to do with my own insecurities....and traveling bugs! <BR>If I could have some guarantee and have total confidence that it was sex, not making love, then maybe it would work? At this point it is a moot issue here, but have spent many hours pondering it. There was a time in my life when sex was just that-sex! But my values changed, probably as I became such a good responsible mom and citizen? <BR>I understand your point about the sneaking and lying. My same points made to h in favor of the open marriage ideal. But the bottom line was he could not do it! I never had to actually accept, then admit, that I doubted I could either.<BR>I said I could not understand your wife at all, but think I am getting a clearer picture. You do not say how old she is...guessing in her 40s since no kids live with you. Is this an age related issue? She is getting more bold with her dress, style, and flirting to retain the youthfulness? She still needs the strokes, so she seeks it out using her sexuality? <BR>hang in there wex. Enjoy this time you have to think, relax, read, etc.

Sorry I'm late, Wex. Haven't posted a lot this week. You REALLY have your hands full, now, don't you?<P>Hang in there. You'll get your proof. <P>Lori