Kathi mentioned there was some recent talk at this forum about this subject. I"m re-posting it here from another thread. Enjoy [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>From session with Steve Harley - 02-20-02<p>The Rule:
Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement between both parties.<p>The subleties:
Doing nothing means just that. If H wants to go fishing and W wants to stay home and finish the gardening, AND they cannot agree on an activity that both would enjoy they do nothing. Nothing means just that, they sit on chairs and stare at the wall.<p>This was enlightening for me. H has been accused by 3 wives of being quite happy doing nothing. But what he really is happy with is staying at home and puttering with machinery, remodelling, etc. while wife is bored silly.<p>Under the rule, they would do NOTHING until they agreed.<p>Second sublety, POJA is a way of gathering information in order to make decisions that take each spouses feelings into account. It is not a way of asking for permission. Saying, "Can I do.......?" Can lead to feelings of resentment or of being treated like a child.<p>Instead, one should ask, "What would you think of....?" or "How would you feel about....?"
This way, you are gathering information about a decision that needs to be made.<p>Steve said to think of POJA as a stop sign. Before making the decision, you stop, gather information and them make the decision that follows the rule as written.<p>As Hoffs said, it seems so easy on paper, or when taking about it theoretically, but when put to use it gets cloudy. Some of this is because we get emotional about things and some is due to the need to work a process that is unfamiliar.<p>We had an assignment, which really made me laugh after P's comments on FW's thread. Cerri was to make up a grocery list, at least 20 items, non kid related. And then using the following procedure negotiate each item on the list.<p>It took us over 90 minutes to buy 20 things. for the most part it was pretty fun. We laughed quite a bit....on a good day we have a similar sense of humor.<p>Here's the process:<p>Guidelines:
1. Remain pleasant and thoughtful throughout negotiations
2. Do not threaten to cause pain or harm, even if your partner threatens or causes pain.
3. If you reach an impasse, stop and come back to it later.<p>(We had to read these out loud, before EVERY item on the list was discussed)<p>ID the problem for each person's perspective:
(This is where it really forces respect and listening....I hadn't read this anywhere, and I LOVE it.)<p>1. Person A (whoever initiates the discussion) says, We have ________issue/problem/whatever, what would you like to do about it?<p>2. Person B MUST give an answer. I don't know or I don't care do not qualify. This is a starting point. Then person B must say why his/her answer is appealing. (very important)<p>3. Person B now invites Person A's input.<p>4. If Person A likes what B said, then you take it and off you go.<p>5. If not, then A says what he/she would like and again, why it is appealing.<p>6. BOTH those ideas are temporarily set aside, and you move to brainstorming.<p>Brainstorming:<p>1. Using the WHY's from above, each person MUST come up with at least 2 solutions or ideas.<p>2. One should NEVER propose an option that is knowlingly unattractive to your spouse (use the why's)<p>3. Now, add back the 2 original choices.<p>4. DO NOT criticize any ideas during this time. It is meant to be a time to let creative ideas flow.<p>5. From the resulting 6 ideas, pick one that appeals to both people.<p>6. If there is nothing that both are ENTHUSIASTIC about, go back to brainstorming.<p>7. If you cannot come up with something, take a break and come back to it later.<p>
Guys, this was sooooo cool. The fact that the one initiating the discussion needs to ask his/her partners ideas FIRST really makes that person feel as if his/her ideas/feelings are important.<p>I was amazed at how different it felt even with something as non emotional as grocery shopping.<p>AND we learned some things about each other that we didn't know before. We had a little tense moment when it came to what to get H for breakfasts. He wanted to throw out the rule and get whatever he wanted, but we held fast and actually found something that we could both be happy with.<p>We also found that if someone criticizes during the brainstorming part, it could make that solution seem to the other person, suddenly more appealing than it did originally.<p>It was cool. We are supposed to keep our notecards with the guidelines with us and use them as things come up. I hope we can do that.<p>Cerri

<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Nicole321 ]</p>

bump

that does sound pretty cool, I guess I missed it somewhere though, what does POJA stand for??

POJA = Policy of Joint Agreement. It is the heart of the MB concepts...the process that protects the "Giver" while making sure the "Taker" is also taken care of. How you and your spouse make sure both have their needs met, without creating resentment. Oh, and for those like me who have trouble implementing it, its that darn PB&J thing [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] !!!<p>Hit Concept link at top of page for more info.<p>I was bumping it for a newbie from another section who I pointed over here, but it is good info for all!<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kam6318:
<strong>POJA = Policy of Joint Agreement. It is the heart of the MB concepts...the process that protects the "Giver" while making sure the "Taker" is also taken care of. How you and your spouse make sure both have their needs met, without creating resentment. Oh, and for those like me who have trouble implementing it, its that darn PB&J thing [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] !!!<p>Hit Concept link at top of page for more info.<p>I was bumping it for a newbie from another section who I pointed over here, but it is good info for all!<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Hi Kathi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It never ceases to amaze me that here on the forum, the first response to any conflict in marriage is to "do a good Plan A." Where did that come from???<p>Give and Take, Fall in Love/Stay in Love, Love Busters, etc. all are geared toward POJA, and negotiating to get one's needs met in marriage.<p>Plan A is to create the conditions that would convince a spouse to end an affair and leave a lover. And perhaps to pull one's spouse out of deep withdrawal. <p>Thanks for bumping this, I wish there was more emphasis on POJA as the way to work toward restoring romantic love in marriages.<p>Cerri

bump

bumping...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>As Hoffs said, it seems so easy on paper, or when taking about it theoretically, but when put to use it gets cloudy. Some of this is because we get emotional about things and some is due to the need to work a process that is unfamiliar.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Just browsing through and noticed this paradox. The intent of the POJA is to take both partners feelings into account. Hence, "getting emotional" is part of the POJA. If you do not reveal emotions, then how can the feelings behind them get taken into account? If resentment is one of the feelings then the POJA rules aren't being met- someones real feelings are being ignored - either by the OS or by the [erson with the feelings. <p>W and I do not conscsiously apply the POJA to the things we do from day to day. But it is a vital tool for making relationship decisions or setting our marital boundaries. For us, this is where the POJA is a MUST.

Cerri, I understand that your grocery shopping was only an exercise, but it brings up something that troubles me about POJA. What should it apply to? In real life, I can't imagine that Dr. Harley would say your husband must eat only foods that you also eat. If I want new clothes, is it reasonable to use POJA on every article of clothing? Or on the amount of money I spend? Or on the idea of getting clothing at all? <p>Or does POJA only apply to areas of conflict within a marriage?<p>I can understand using POJA for conceptual matters (how to raise children, for example) major decisions (whether to have children, career choice, what house to buy), or for things that a couple engage in together (what to do on a date, when or how they have sex). But in real life, there are many things that we do on our own, or for ourselves, and if POJA must be applied to those things, it allows one partner to control the actions of the other through non-action, and that seems to me to be counter-productive in marriage.

^^^

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Charynne:
<strong>Cerri, I understand that your grocery shopping was only an exercise, but it brings up something that troubles me about POJA. What should it apply to? In real life, I can't imagine that Dr. Harley would say your husband must eat only foods that you also eat. If I want new clothes, is it reasonable to use POJA on every article of clothing? Or on the amount of money I spend? Or on the idea of getting clothing at all? <p>Or does POJA only apply to areas of conflict within a marriage?<p>I can understand using POJA for conceptual matters (how to raise children, for example) major decisions (whether to have children, career choice, what house to buy), or for things that a couple engage in together (what to do on a date, when or how they have sex). But in real life, there are many things that we do on our own, or for ourselves, and if POJA must be applied to those things, it allows one partner to control the actions of the other through non-action, and that seems to me to be counter-productive in marriage.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Dr. Harley's advice is that "you don't so much as brush your teeth without your spouse's enthusiastic agreement."<p>I believe however, he was speaking in the context of a couple who had become very incompatible over the years, and one of them, the wife was on the verge of leaving.<p>To answer your question more realistically, let's get to the heart of why this rule exists as THE foundation of Marriage Builders philospphy.<p>Everything we do, every decision we make, every choice effects our spouse either negatively or positively. It therefore effects the balance in our spouse's love bank. <p>Things such as getting a drink of water, going to work as scheduled, eating lunch, etc. can probably be considered to be well within the boundaries of POJA. BUT if one spouse does have an issue with something minor it should be addressed using the formula above for conflict resolution.<p>No, Dr. Harley doesn't say you must eat the same foods.....where would be the fun in that??? But I think he would say that you should be in agreement on the things you purchase and bring into your home, feed to your children, and for that matter, eat yourself. The grocery store exercise is a way to practice this process that should be safe and fun. As I said, it becomes mpore difficult when the issue is something near and dear to your heart.<p>Yes, yes, and yes... to your questions about clothing purchases. Go back to the basis for this rule.... everything you do affects how your spouse feels about you. <p>No, it is not just for conflict. POJA is a way to be thoughtful when making decisions, even when you don't feel like doing so. <p>POJA is a way to assess how your choices will affect the person you have vowed to honor and cherish all the days of your life. <p>So, you don't say, "Honey, I'd like to go shopping and buy some new jeans. Is that ok with you?" Such a statement is asking for permission which will leave you feeling like a child.<p>Instead you say, "Honey I'd like to go shopping, and buy some new jeans, they will cost about $___. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?"<p>Now, you are asking a question that will give you valuable information on how your spouse will feel about something you do. (Of course you will need to ask the same question about the timing of the trip, and where you plan to shop [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) The rule says that unless your spouse is "Fine! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] " with your plan, you don't do it.<p>As to your question about control. First let me say that according to Dr. Harley, control is forcing or coercing someone to DO something that he or she finds offensive or is reluctant to do. Control is not about vetoing something. <p>POJA gives you the power to say "No," to things that make you uncomfortable, unhappy, or that you think is not in your best interest. <p>You are right about the idea that one person seems to have control by stalemating the process. However, this is where the greatest misunderstanding about POJA (IMO) comes in. It's not just about one person not doing something. It is about continuing to negotiate until BOTH parties are enthusiastic about the outcome.<p>This is where I made the biggest mistake in my M. I just gave up more and more as my H didn't feel good about things I wanted to do. But instead of us negotiating to replace those things with a lifestyle that made us both happy AT THE SAME TIME, I became miserable while he went about his life thinking everything was fine because he was getting what he wanted. <p>I hope this helps to clear it up for you a little. If I have time tomorrow, I'll post some links to this subject from the articles and QA columns here online.<p>Blessings,<p>Cerri

The "doing nothing" part bothers me. So, if H wants to live in our current house and I want to live someplace else, and we can't agree, then does doing NOTHING mean we should camp out in a tent until we get it figured out???

cerri,<p>I've always had problems with POJA. I would love to live by it, but it seems so far out of reach for me.<p>Start with this fact: My W does not agree to use POJA. Therefore, by POJA, we cannot use POJA.<p>Great. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But I try anyway and the problem I have with it is that everything has two sides and sometimes it is hard to say what is doing something and what is not doing anything.<p>An example...<p>One year, my W invited my Mom to Thanksgiving dinner. I was very pleased. It was W's idea. Mom lives in the same town - and at that time lived with my brother. Brother was going to be with his wife's family that year and although they had invited my Mom to go with them, she was pleased to be invited to come to our house. A couple of Mom's friends invited her too and she turned them down - bragged on what a good cook my W is - told them she was coming to our house for Thanksgiving. So far, we seem to be in enthusiastic agreement. W invited Mom - and she didn't have to even ask me - but knew that I would enthusiastically agree.<p>Then, on Thanksgiving morning - W announces that Mom can't come. I was totally blown away. My brother and his wife had already left town the night before. Mom had already turned down all other invitations. Never in her life had my Mom been alone on Thanksgiving. So, where is POJA?<p>Was reneging on the invitation "doing something" or was bringing Mom over for dinner "doing something"? The best I could do was go to a restraunt (never could spell that word), buy a box dinner for Mom, take it to her and stay for awhile while she ate - then return home to my W (and her niece - who lived with us at the time) who had prepared a whole turkey and all the rest for the three of us to eat while Mom sat alone - with the embarrassing burden of answering her friends' questions about how her Thanksgiving went.<p>Many times I have looked back on that occation. I did what I did because I believe in POJA - that if my W didn't want my Mom to come, it was my duty as a husband to tell Mom that she can't come for Thanksgiving dinner. I believe that was a mistake. I don't know what the solution should have been, but I still regret my compliance on that occasion.<p>The truth is POJA helped us not at all. Even if my W believed in POJA, she could have said "I don't enthusiastically agree to having your Mom over for dinner" and I could have said "I don't enthusiastically agree to leaving Mom alone on Thansgiving after we have already invited her". Oh, just in case you wonder if Mom did something in order to be disinvited, No, she didn't do anything at all. As far as I know, she had not communication with my W between the invitation and the withdrawal of the invitation.<p>So, I prefer the boundaries model. All POJA is is two sets of boundaries stitched together. If each spouse respects the other's boundaries, you end up with POJA. Boundaries is something one party can do by themselves. Of course, the marriage is flying on one wing and it still doesn't work, but it may be better than nothing.<p>Maybe POJA could be clarified to say that once a commitment has been made, breaking the comittment is "doing something" which requires your spouse's enthusiastic agreement. But if your spouse is like mine, (s)he will just do whatever (s]he wants to do.<p>-AD<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AbandonedDad:
<strong>cerri,<p>I've always had problems with POJA. I would love to live by it, but it seems so far out of reach for me.<p>Start with this fact: My W does not agree to use POJA. Therefore, by POJA, we cannot use POJA.<p>Great. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But I try anyway and the problem I have with it is that everything has two sides and sometimes it is hard to say what is doing something and what is not doing anything.<p>An example...<p>One year, my W invited my Mom to Thanksgiving dinner. I was very pleased. It was W's idea. Mom lives in the same town - and at that time lived with my brother. Brother was going to be with his wife's family that year and although they had invited my Mom to go with them, she was pleased to be invited to come to our house. A couple of Mom's friends invited her too and she turned them down - bragged on what a good cook my W is - told them she was coming to our house for Thanksgiving. So far, we seem to be in enthusiastic agreement. W invited Mom - and she didn't have to even ask me - but knew that I would enthusiastically agree.<p>Then, on Thanksgiving morning - W announces that Mom can't come. I was totally blown away. My brother and his wife had already left town the night before. Mom had already turned down all other invitations. Never in her life had my Mom been alone on Thanksgiving. So, where is POJA?<p>Was reneging on the invitation "doing something" or was bringing Mom over for dinner "doing something"? The best I could do was go to a restraunt (never could spell that word), buy a box dinner for Mom, take it to her and stay for awhile while she ate - then return home to my W (and her niece - who lived with us at the time) who had prepared a whole turkey and all the rest for the three of us to eat while Mom sat alone - with the embarrassing burden of answering her friends' questions about how her Thanksgiving went.<p>Many times I have looked back on that occation. I did what I did because I believe in POJA - that if my W didn't want my Mom to come, it was my duty as a husband to tell Mom that she can't come for Thanksgiving dinner. I believe that was a mistake. I don't know what the solution should have been, but I still regret my compliance on that occasion.<p>The truth is POJA helped us not at all. Even if my W believed in POJA, she could have said "I don't enthusiastically agree to having your Mom over for dinner" and I could have said "I don't enthusiastically agree to leaving Mom alone on Thansgiving after we have already invited her". Oh, just in case you wonder if Mom did something in order to be disinvited, No, she didn't do anything at all. As far as I know, she had not communication with my W between the invitation and the withdrawal of the invitation.<p>So, I prefer the boundaries model. All POJA is is two sets of boundaries stitched together. If each spouse respects the other's boundaries, you end up with POJA. Boundaries is something one party can do by themselves. Of course, the marriage is flying on one wing and it still doesn't work, but it may be better than nothing.<p>Maybe POJA could be clarified to say that once a commitment has been made, breaking the comittment is "doing something" which requires your spouse's enthusiastic agreement. But if your spouse is like mine, (s)he will just do whatever (s]he wants to do.<p>-AD<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think in the Thanksgiving situation, what was called for was doing nothing unless you could come to a joint agreement. To me, that would mean no Thanksgiving dinner, Mother or not.<p>Then, go back and try to follow the guidelines as posted by Cerri.<p>Does that make sense?<p>Can't say that I am an expeert on this because my H says he will follow a mutually agreed upon solution, then does whatever he wants. So I understand the frustration.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>POJA is a way to assess how your choices will affect the person you have vowed to honor and cherish all the days of your life. <p>So, you don't say, "Honey, I'd like to go shopping and buy some new jeans. Is that ok with you?" Such a statement is asking for permission which will leave you feeling like a child.<p>Instead you say, "Honey I'd like to go shopping, and buy some new jeans, they will cost about $___. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?"</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think in my own case: If we are tight on money I would say something like "Honey, lets sit down and update our budget for the next few months. I really need some new jeans." If I am not sure W would agree with purchasing new blue jeans I would say "I was thinking about getting some new jeans, what do you think?" (I say "think" but mean "feel" - W doesn't like the word "feel" but answers to "think" as if I had said "feel"). <p>Generally, if I am withing a budget I wouldn't say anything and it wouldn't be a LB to come home with blue jeans. The issue isn't making joint decisions it is taking each others feelings into account. You only need to explore your spouses feelings when you aren't sure about them. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>As to your question about control. First let me say that according to Dr. Harley, control is forcing or coercing someone to DO something that he or she finds offensive or is reluctant to do. Control is not about vetoing something.
You are right about the idea that one person seems to have control by stalemating the process. However, this is where the greatest misunderstanding about POJA (IMO) comes in. It's not just about one person not doing something. It is about continuing to negotiate until BOTH parties are enthusiastic about the outcome.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>POJA is about two people approaching the issue from the same side. The question isn't "how can I get what I want" but rather "how can we both get what we need". In order to do this you have to know what your spouse needs. In the case of blue jeans I know my W needs me to stay within my budget for new clothes which is reached using the POJA. Having control over spending limits is part of finaincial security for her. She feels more secure when she knows there are limits and the limits are respected. <p>Another spouse may have a different need. The need ay be an attractive spouse and blue jeans may not meet that need. In this case, when shoping for clothes it might be appropriate to find an alternate or compromise to blue jeans. The catch is to meet your need AND your spouses needs at the saem time. When your not usre what they are - communicate.

I say this with all due respect to Dr. Harley and to Cerri-- anyone who can say with a straight face that "control is not about vetoing something" has never lived with a passive-agressive.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jmv:
<strong>The "doing nothing" part bothers me. So, if H wants to live in our current house and I want to live someplace else, and we can't agree, then does doing NOTHING mean we should camp out in a tent until we get it figured out???</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, this is the part that gets us all. The answer is you do NOTHING.....about moving. It doesn't mean that the one who doesn't want to move "wins" by default. Let me repeat...that was the BIG BIG mistake I made. <p>So, in your scenario, you want to move, he wants to stay put. As soon as you bring up the issue with him, under the rules of POJA he is obligated to work with you to find a solution that makes you both happy at the same time. You continuing to be miserable living in your house is NOT an option. Every day that you live there without negotiating to find a mutually enthusiastic solution is a day that he is MAKING A DECISION (about where you live) that does NOT take your feelings into account.<p>The party who is confronted (for lack of a better word) with their spouse's unhappiness in a situation is obligated to negotiate in good faith to find a solution that takes both parties' feelings into account.<p>Cerri

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Charynne:
<strong>I say this with all due respect to Dr. Harley and to Cerri-- anyone who can say with a straight face that "control is not about vetoing something" has never lived with a passive-agressive.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh....honey!!!! Au contraire...my friend.
My H is as passive aggressive as they come. Borderline personality disorder is suspected. And you are absolutely right. POJA works when you have two people who are able to set aside their own selfishness and take into account what the other person wants and needs. Both MUST be able to negotiate in good faith. Read what I wrote to JMV about the do nothing issue.<p>Cerri