Kathi mentioned there was some recent talk at this forum about this subject. I"m re-posting it here from another thread. Enjoy [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>From session with Steve Harley - 02-20-02<p>The Rule:
Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement between both parties.<p>The subleties:
Doing nothing means just that. If H wants to go fishing and W wants to stay home and finish the gardening, AND they cannot agree on an activity that both would enjoy they do nothing. Nothing means just that, they sit on chairs and stare at the wall.<p>This was enlightening for me. H has been accused by 3 wives of being quite happy doing nothing. But what he really is happy with is staying at home and puttering with machinery, remodelling, etc. while wife is bored silly.<p>Under the rule, they would do NOTHING until they agreed.<p>Second sublety, POJA is a way of gathering information in order to make decisions that take each spouses feelings into account. It is not a way of asking for permission. Saying, "Can I do.......?" Can lead to feelings of resentment or of being treated like a child.<p>Instead, one should ask, "What would you think of....?" or "How would you feel about....?"
This way, you are gathering information about a decision that needs to be made.<p>Steve said to think of POJA as a stop sign. Before making the decision, you stop, gather information and them make the decision that follows the rule as written.<p>As Hoffs said, it seems so easy on paper, or when taking about it theoretically, but when put to use it gets cloudy. Some of this is because we get emotional about things and some is due to the need to work a process that is unfamiliar.<p>We had an assignment, which really made me laugh after P's comments on FW's thread. Cerri was to make up a grocery list, at least 20 items, non kid related. And then using the following procedure negotiate each item on the list.<p>It took us over 90 minutes to buy 20 things. for the most part it was pretty fun. We laughed quite a bit....on a good day we have a similar sense of humor.<p>Here's the process:<p>Guidelines:
1. Remain pleasant and thoughtful throughout negotiations
2. Do not threaten to cause pain or harm, even if your partner threatens or causes pain.
3. If you reach an impasse, stop and come back to it later.<p>(We had to read these out loud, before EVERY item on the list was discussed)<p>ID the problem for each person's perspective:
(This is where it really forces respect and listening....I hadn't read this anywhere, and I LOVE it.)<p>1. Person A (whoever initiates the discussion) says, We have ________issue/problem/whatever, what would you like to do about it?<p>2. Person B MUST give an answer. I don't know or I don't care do not qualify. This is a starting point. Then person B must say why his/her answer is appealing. (very important)<p>3. Person B now invites Person A's input.<p>4. If Person A likes what B said, then you take it and off you go.<p>5. If not, then A says what he/she would like and again, why it is appealing.<p>6. BOTH those ideas are temporarily set aside, and you move to brainstorming.<p>Brainstorming:<p>1. Using the WHY's from above, each person MUST come up with at least 2 solutions or ideas.<p>2. One should NEVER propose an option that is knowlingly unattractive to your spouse (use the why's)<p>3. Now, add back the 2 original choices.<p>4. DO NOT criticize any ideas during this time. It is meant to be a time to let creative ideas flow.<p>5. From the resulting 6 ideas, pick one that appeals to both people.<p>6. If there is nothing that both are ENTHUSIASTIC about, go back to brainstorming.<p>7. If you cannot come up with something, take a break and come back to it later.<p>
Guys, this was sooooo cool. The fact that the one initiating the discussion needs to ask his/her partners ideas FIRST really makes that person feel as if his/her ideas/feelings are important.<p>I was amazed at how different it felt even with something as non emotional as grocery shopping.<p>AND we learned some things about each other that we didn't know before. We had a little tense moment when it came to what to get H for breakfasts. He wanted to throw out the rule and get whatever he wanted, but we held fast and actually found something that we could both be happy with.<p>We also found that if someone criticizes during the brainstorming part, it could make that solution seem to the other person, suddenly more appealing than it did originally.<p>It was cool. We are supposed to keep our notecards with the guidelines with us and use them as things come up. I hope we can do that.<p>Cerri

<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Nicole321 ]</p>

bump

that does sound pretty cool, I guess I missed it somewhere though, what does POJA stand for??

POJA = Policy of Joint Agreement. It is the heart of the MB concepts...the process that protects the "Giver" while making sure the "Taker" is also taken care of. How you and your spouse make sure both have their needs met, without creating resentment. Oh, and for those like me who have trouble implementing it, its that darn PB&J thing [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] !!!<p>Hit Concept link at top of page for more info.<p>I was bumping it for a newbie from another section who I pointed over here, but it is good info for all!<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kam6318:
<strong>POJA = Policy of Joint Agreement. It is the heart of the MB concepts...the process that protects the "Giver" while making sure the "Taker" is also taken care of. How you and your spouse make sure both have their needs met, without creating resentment. Oh, and for those like me who have trouble implementing it, its that darn PB&J thing [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] !!!<p>Hit Concept link at top of page for more info.<p>I was bumping it for a newbie from another section who I pointed over here, but it is good info for all!<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Hi Kathi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It never ceases to amaze me that here on the forum, the first response to any conflict in marriage is to "do a good Plan A." Where did that come from???<p>Give and Take, Fall in Love/Stay in Love, Love Busters, etc. all are geared toward POJA, and negotiating to get one's needs met in marriage.<p>Plan A is to create the conditions that would convince a spouse to end an affair and leave a lover. And perhaps to pull one's spouse out of deep withdrawal. <p>Thanks for bumping this, I wish there was more emphasis on POJA as the way to work toward restoring romantic love in marriages.<p>Cerri

bump

bumping...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>As Hoffs said, it seems so easy on paper, or when taking about it theoretically, but when put to use it gets cloudy. Some of this is because we get emotional about things and some is due to the need to work a process that is unfamiliar.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Just browsing through and noticed this paradox. The intent of the POJA is to take both partners feelings into account. Hence, "getting emotional" is part of the POJA. If you do not reveal emotions, then how can the feelings behind them get taken into account? If resentment is one of the feelings then the POJA rules aren't being met- someones real feelings are being ignored - either by the OS or by the [erson with the feelings. <p>W and I do not conscsiously apply the POJA to the things we do from day to day. But it is a vital tool for making relationship decisions or setting our marital boundaries. For us, this is where the POJA is a MUST.

Cerri, I understand that your grocery shopping was only an exercise, but it brings up something that troubles me about POJA. What should it apply to? In real life, I can't imagine that Dr. Harley would say your husband must eat only foods that you also eat. If I want new clothes, is it reasonable to use POJA on every article of clothing? Or on the amount of money I spend? Or on the idea of getting clothing at all? <p>Or does POJA only apply to areas of conflict within a marriage?<p>I can understand using POJA for conceptual matters (how to raise children, for example) major decisions (whether to have children, career choice, what house to buy), or for things that a couple engage in together (what to do on a date, when or how they have sex). But in real life, there are many things that we do on our own, or for ourselves, and if POJA must be applied to those things, it allows one partner to control the actions of the other through non-action, and that seems to me to be counter-productive in marriage.

^^^

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Charynne:
<strong>Cerri, I understand that your grocery shopping was only an exercise, but it brings up something that troubles me about POJA. What should it apply to? In real life, I can't imagine that Dr. Harley would say your husband must eat only foods that you also eat. If I want new clothes, is it reasonable to use POJA on every article of clothing? Or on the amount of money I spend? Or on the idea of getting clothing at all? <p>Or does POJA only apply to areas of conflict within a marriage?<p>I can understand using POJA for conceptual matters (how to raise children, for example) major decisions (whether to have children, career choice, what house to buy), or for things that a couple engage in together (what to do on a date, when or how they have sex). But in real life, there are many things that we do on our own, or for ourselves, and if POJA must be applied to those things, it allows one partner to control the actions of the other through non-action, and that seems to me to be counter-productive in marriage.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Dr. Harley's advice is that "you don't so much as brush your teeth without your spouse's enthusiastic agreement."<p>I believe however, he was speaking in the context of a couple who had become very incompatible over the years, and one of them, the wife was on the verge of leaving.<p>To answer your question more realistically, let's get to the heart of why this rule exists as THE foundation of Marriage Builders philospphy.<p>Everything we do, every decision we make, every choice effects our spouse either negatively or positively. It therefore effects the balance in our spouse's love bank. <p>Things such as getting a drink of water, going to work as scheduled, eating lunch, etc. can probably be considered to be well within the boundaries of POJA. BUT if one spouse does have an issue with something minor it should be addressed using the formula above for conflict resolution.<p>No, Dr. Harley doesn't say you must eat the same foods.....where would be the fun in that??? But I think he would say that you should be in agreement on the things you purchase and bring into your home, feed to your children, and for that matter, eat yourself. The grocery store exercise is a way to practice this process that should be safe and fun. As I said, it becomes mpore difficult when the issue is something near and dear to your heart.<p>Yes, yes, and yes... to your questions about clothing purchases. Go back to the basis for this rule.... everything you do affects how your spouse feels about you. <p>No, it is not just for conflict. POJA is a way to be thoughtful when making decisions, even when you don't feel like doing so. <p>POJA is a way to assess how your choices will affect the person you have vowed to honor and cherish all the days of your life. <p>So, you don't say, "Honey, I'd like to go shopping and buy some new jeans. Is that ok with you?" Such a statement is asking for permission which will leave you feeling like a child.<p>Instead you say, "Honey I'd like to go shopping, and buy some new jeans, they will cost about $___. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?"<p>Now, you are asking a question that will give you valuable information on how your spouse will feel about something you do. (Of course you will need to ask the same question about the timing of the trip, and where you plan to shop [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) The rule says that unless your spouse is "Fine! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] " with your plan, you don't do it.<p>As to your question about control. First let me say that according to Dr. Harley, control is forcing or coercing someone to DO something that he or she finds offensive or is reluctant to do. Control is not about vetoing something. <p>POJA gives you the power to say "No," to things that make you uncomfortable, unhappy, or that you think is not in your best interest. <p>You are right about the idea that one person seems to have control by stalemating the process. However, this is where the greatest misunderstanding about POJA (IMO) comes in. It's not just about one person not doing something. It is about continuing to negotiate until BOTH parties are enthusiastic about the outcome.<p>This is where I made the biggest mistake in my M. I just gave up more and more as my H didn't feel good about things I wanted to do. But instead of us negotiating to replace those things with a lifestyle that made us both happy AT THE SAME TIME, I became miserable while he went about his life thinking everything was fine because he was getting what he wanted. <p>I hope this helps to clear it up for you a little. If I have time tomorrow, I'll post some links to this subject from the articles and QA columns here online.<p>Blessings,<p>Cerri

The "doing nothing" part bothers me. So, if H wants to live in our current house and I want to live someplace else, and we can't agree, then does doing NOTHING mean we should camp out in a tent until we get it figured out???

cerri,<p>I've always had problems with POJA. I would love to live by it, but it seems so far out of reach for me.<p>Start with this fact: My W does not agree to use POJA. Therefore, by POJA, we cannot use POJA.<p>Great. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But I try anyway and the problem I have with it is that everything has two sides and sometimes it is hard to say what is doing something and what is not doing anything.<p>An example...<p>One year, my W invited my Mom to Thanksgiving dinner. I was very pleased. It was W's idea. Mom lives in the same town - and at that time lived with my brother. Brother was going to be with his wife's family that year and although they had invited my Mom to go with them, she was pleased to be invited to come to our house. A couple of Mom's friends invited her too and she turned them down - bragged on what a good cook my W is - told them she was coming to our house for Thanksgiving. So far, we seem to be in enthusiastic agreement. W invited Mom - and she didn't have to even ask me - but knew that I would enthusiastically agree.<p>Then, on Thanksgiving morning - W announces that Mom can't come. I was totally blown away. My brother and his wife had already left town the night before. Mom had already turned down all other invitations. Never in her life had my Mom been alone on Thanksgiving. So, where is POJA?<p>Was reneging on the invitation "doing something" or was bringing Mom over for dinner "doing something"? The best I could do was go to a restraunt (never could spell that word), buy a box dinner for Mom, take it to her and stay for awhile while she ate - then return home to my W (and her niece - who lived with us at the time) who had prepared a whole turkey and all the rest for the three of us to eat while Mom sat alone - with the embarrassing burden of answering her friends' questions about how her Thanksgiving went.<p>Many times I have looked back on that occation. I did what I did because I believe in POJA - that if my W didn't want my Mom to come, it was my duty as a husband to tell Mom that she can't come for Thanksgiving dinner. I believe that was a mistake. I don't know what the solution should have been, but I still regret my compliance on that occasion.<p>The truth is POJA helped us not at all. Even if my W believed in POJA, she could have said "I don't enthusiastically agree to having your Mom over for dinner" and I could have said "I don't enthusiastically agree to leaving Mom alone on Thansgiving after we have already invited her". Oh, just in case you wonder if Mom did something in order to be disinvited, No, she didn't do anything at all. As far as I know, she had not communication with my W between the invitation and the withdrawal of the invitation.<p>So, I prefer the boundaries model. All POJA is is two sets of boundaries stitched together. If each spouse respects the other's boundaries, you end up with POJA. Boundaries is something one party can do by themselves. Of course, the marriage is flying on one wing and it still doesn't work, but it may be better than nothing.<p>Maybe POJA could be clarified to say that once a commitment has been made, breaking the comittment is "doing something" which requires your spouse's enthusiastic agreement. But if your spouse is like mine, (s)he will just do whatever (s]he wants to do.<p>-AD<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AbandonedDad:
<strong>cerri,<p>I've always had problems with POJA. I would love to live by it, but it seems so far out of reach for me.<p>Start with this fact: My W does not agree to use POJA. Therefore, by POJA, we cannot use POJA.<p>Great. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But I try anyway and the problem I have with it is that everything has two sides and sometimes it is hard to say what is doing something and what is not doing anything.<p>An example...<p>One year, my W invited my Mom to Thanksgiving dinner. I was very pleased. It was W's idea. Mom lives in the same town - and at that time lived with my brother. Brother was going to be with his wife's family that year and although they had invited my Mom to go with them, she was pleased to be invited to come to our house. A couple of Mom's friends invited her too and she turned them down - bragged on what a good cook my W is - told them she was coming to our house for Thanksgiving. So far, we seem to be in enthusiastic agreement. W invited Mom - and she didn't have to even ask me - but knew that I would enthusiastically agree.<p>Then, on Thanksgiving morning - W announces that Mom can't come. I was totally blown away. My brother and his wife had already left town the night before. Mom had already turned down all other invitations. Never in her life had my Mom been alone on Thanksgiving. So, where is POJA?<p>Was reneging on the invitation "doing something" or was bringing Mom over for dinner "doing something"? The best I could do was go to a restraunt (never could spell that word), buy a box dinner for Mom, take it to her and stay for awhile while she ate - then return home to my W (and her niece - who lived with us at the time) who had prepared a whole turkey and all the rest for the three of us to eat while Mom sat alone - with the embarrassing burden of answering her friends' questions about how her Thanksgiving went.<p>Many times I have looked back on that occation. I did what I did because I believe in POJA - that if my W didn't want my Mom to come, it was my duty as a husband to tell Mom that she can't come for Thanksgiving dinner. I believe that was a mistake. I don't know what the solution should have been, but I still regret my compliance on that occasion.<p>The truth is POJA helped us not at all. Even if my W believed in POJA, she could have said "I don't enthusiastically agree to having your Mom over for dinner" and I could have said "I don't enthusiastically agree to leaving Mom alone on Thansgiving after we have already invited her". Oh, just in case you wonder if Mom did something in order to be disinvited, No, she didn't do anything at all. As far as I know, she had not communication with my W between the invitation and the withdrawal of the invitation.<p>So, I prefer the boundaries model. All POJA is is two sets of boundaries stitched together. If each spouse respects the other's boundaries, you end up with POJA. Boundaries is something one party can do by themselves. Of course, the marriage is flying on one wing and it still doesn't work, but it may be better than nothing.<p>Maybe POJA could be clarified to say that once a commitment has been made, breaking the comittment is "doing something" which requires your spouse's enthusiastic agreement. But if your spouse is like mine, (s)he will just do whatever (s]he wants to do.<p>-AD<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think in the Thanksgiving situation, what was called for was doing nothing unless you could come to a joint agreement. To me, that would mean no Thanksgiving dinner, Mother or not.<p>Then, go back and try to follow the guidelines as posted by Cerri.<p>Does that make sense?<p>Can't say that I am an expeert on this because my H says he will follow a mutually agreed upon solution, then does whatever he wants. So I understand the frustration.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>POJA is a way to assess how your choices will affect the person you have vowed to honor and cherish all the days of your life. <p>So, you don't say, "Honey, I'd like to go shopping and buy some new jeans. Is that ok with you?" Such a statement is asking for permission which will leave you feeling like a child.<p>Instead you say, "Honey I'd like to go shopping, and buy some new jeans, they will cost about $___. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?"</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think in my own case: If we are tight on money I would say something like "Honey, lets sit down and update our budget for the next few months. I really need some new jeans." If I am not sure W would agree with purchasing new blue jeans I would say "I was thinking about getting some new jeans, what do you think?" (I say "think" but mean "feel" - W doesn't like the word "feel" but answers to "think" as if I had said "feel"). <p>Generally, if I am withing a budget I wouldn't say anything and it wouldn't be a LB to come home with blue jeans. The issue isn't making joint decisions it is taking each others feelings into account. You only need to explore your spouses feelings when you aren't sure about them. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>As to your question about control. First let me say that according to Dr. Harley, control is forcing or coercing someone to DO something that he or she finds offensive or is reluctant to do. Control is not about vetoing something.
You are right about the idea that one person seems to have control by stalemating the process. However, this is where the greatest misunderstanding about POJA (IMO) comes in. It's not just about one person not doing something. It is about continuing to negotiate until BOTH parties are enthusiastic about the outcome.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>POJA is about two people approaching the issue from the same side. The question isn't "how can I get what I want" but rather "how can we both get what we need". In order to do this you have to know what your spouse needs. In the case of blue jeans I know my W needs me to stay within my budget for new clothes which is reached using the POJA. Having control over spending limits is part of finaincial security for her. She feels more secure when she knows there are limits and the limits are respected. <p>Another spouse may have a different need. The need ay be an attractive spouse and blue jeans may not meet that need. In this case, when shoping for clothes it might be appropriate to find an alternate or compromise to blue jeans. The catch is to meet your need AND your spouses needs at the saem time. When your not usre what they are - communicate.

I say this with all due respect to Dr. Harley and to Cerri-- anyone who can say with a straight face that "control is not about vetoing something" has never lived with a passive-agressive.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jmv:
<strong>The "doing nothing" part bothers me. So, if H wants to live in our current house and I want to live someplace else, and we can't agree, then does doing NOTHING mean we should camp out in a tent until we get it figured out???</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, this is the part that gets us all. The answer is you do NOTHING.....about moving. It doesn't mean that the one who doesn't want to move "wins" by default. Let me repeat...that was the BIG BIG mistake I made. <p>So, in your scenario, you want to move, he wants to stay put. As soon as you bring up the issue with him, under the rules of POJA he is obligated to work with you to find a solution that makes you both happy at the same time. You continuing to be miserable living in your house is NOT an option. Every day that you live there without negotiating to find a mutually enthusiastic solution is a day that he is MAKING A DECISION (about where you live) that does NOT take your feelings into account.<p>The party who is confronted (for lack of a better word) with their spouse's unhappiness in a situation is obligated to negotiate in good faith to find a solution that takes both parties' feelings into account.<p>Cerri

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Charynne:
<strong>I say this with all due respect to Dr. Harley and to Cerri-- anyone who can say with a straight face that "control is not about vetoing something" has never lived with a passive-agressive.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh....honey!!!! Au contraire...my friend.
My H is as passive aggressive as they come. Borderline personality disorder is suspected. And you are absolutely right. POJA works when you have two people who are able to set aside their own selfishness and take into account what the other person wants and needs. Both MUST be able to negotiate in good faith. Read what I wrote to JMV about the do nothing issue.<p>Cerri

HH, I like what you said about budgets, jeans and knowing how your spouse will react. So true, you certainly cannot call, email, fax, or send carrier pigeon for every last thing. It is assumed that you will know how your spouse feels about certain issues and that you can go ahead and act in accordance with that. <p>It's the 'new' or 'different' or 'unusual' circumstances that come up where you really need to take the time to ask, "How would you feel (think [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) about this?"
Occassionally, we all do things that we thought our spouse would be fine with, only to be wrong. In that case, it is up to the spouse to say something like, "Hey, you know... I really was unhappy with that thing you did the other day." (should be said pleasantly, with a smile) To which the offending spouse should apologize, plead ignorance, and then proceed from there.<p>
AD - I read you TG story long ago, also on the topic of POJA. I do have some thoughts, but alas.....the joys of mothering 3 elementary school children call.....it's track and field day, and I have the gatorade [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Later,<p>Cerri

itd,<p>Thanks for responding to my post. I want it to work. I really do. I want to just be able to say POJA and all my troubles go away. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by inthedark:
<strong>Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think in the Thanksgiving situation, what was called for was doing nothing unless you could come to a joint agreement. To me, that would mean no Thanksgiving dinner, Mother or not.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't see how that could be accomplished and I still don't see how that improves anything. By POJA, whoever can express their point of view in the passive mode can have their way. Doing nothing was doing something - dissing my Mom. I don't think the situation would be improved by me taking the turkey out of the oven and throwing it away - chasing W out of the kitchen and telling her that nobody would eat if Mama didn't eat.<p>My problem with POJA again is that every choice can be stated in two ways - sometimes one way is clearly negative and the other positive, but still each side of the fork in the road is a choice. All POJA does is force us down the fork which can be most clearly defined as "doing nothing". If my W wants me to get out of bed and I don't want to, "doing nothing" is staying in bed - which is what I wanted to do. I don't see how that helps us be more agreeable.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Then, go back and try to follow the guidelines as posted by Cerri.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I do think there is a lot than can be accomplished under POJA - but, by it's definition, it requires cooperation - and it's very goal is cooperation. If my W rejects POJA, we cannot use it. Still, I can use the boundary model. I can say "I will not do that which I know my W does not agree with" and "I will not do that with which I disagree." That doesn't allow room for give and take, but it may be the best I can do by myself.<p>BTW. My W doesn't approve of me posting here - or wasting time and money on marriage books.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Does that make sense?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry, but No.<p>-AD

AD wrote:Doing nothing was doing something - dissing my Mom. I don't think the situation would be improved by me taking the turkey out of the oven and throwing it away - chasing W out of the kitchen and telling her that nobody would eat if Mama didn't eat.
<p>Yes! You are right, that would hjave been doing 'something.' The whole point of the 'do nothing' part is to force both parties to brainstorm their a**es off in order to reach a mutually enthusiastic solution. Obviously, dissing mom, would not have been that.<p>I do think there is a lot than can be accomplished under POJA - but, by it's definition, it requires cooperation - and it's very goal is cooperation. <p>Absolutely. Without a cooperative effort on the part of each partner, it doesn't work well. However, after one failed marriage, and the second one heading in that direction, I truly believe that without that spirit of cooperation relationships cannot survive long term.....and be mutually satisfying.<p>What I advocate is that YOU (or in my case I) live up to the strictures of POJA. Ask how your spouse would feel about any decision you are going to make. If he or she is not happy about some aspect of it, attempt to negotiate until you are both satisified (happy at the same time with the solution)<p>Going further into MB philosophy, I think that a crucial part of POJA is radical honesty. And that if your spouse rejects the concept of POJA on the surface, I believe (and Dr. Harely says) that you are still responsible for sharing how your spouses behavior affects you.<p>So, if your spouse won't POJA his or her choices and you are unhappy, by the rule of honesty you need to say so. With respect, and without demands or anger.<p>If a combination of honesty and following POJA to the best of your ability does not effect change in the relationship, then you have a couple of choices. You can choose to live in a marriage that is not fulfilling, and where resentment will eventually build to dislike. Or you can go to Plan B. Or you can choose to leave altogether.<p>I've never been an advocate of saying that because one person cannot or will not follow the rules that makes it ok for the other party to disregard them as well.<p>However, that does make me something of a hypocrite, since things have deteriorated sooooo far in my marriage, I'm at the 'just don't care' stage. And although I do my best to be pleasant, courteous, respectful and cooperative, I'm through giving up everything I want when there has not been an effort at negotiating a lifestyle we both enjoy.<p>I doubt you would find ANYONE on this site who has suffered more abuse and control in the name of POJA than I have over the last 5 years. That doesn't mean I don't believe in the rule. It means that it really does take a good understanding of how it's supposed to work, and two people capable of cooperating.<p>About the dinner, as a human being (as opposed to a MB obsessive [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) I think I would have reccomended that if wife didn't want to have mom come for dinner.... after inviting her in the first place.... that wife spend the afternoon in her room....grounded [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .......but then I deal with 4 sons and one husband and tend to get a little bossy [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jmv:
<strong>The "doing nothing" part bothers me. So, if H wants to live in our current house and I want to live someplace else, and we can't agree, then does doing NOTHING mean we should camp out in a tent until we get it figured out???</strong><hr></blockquote><p>For W and I the "do nothing" means more than just doing nothing about movinging out. It means you do nothing; you don't watch TV, you don't eat dinner, you don't read the newspaper - you do NOTHING except talk about the issue until you both COMPLETELY understand each others perspective and reach a decision. <p>This may seem unreasonable at first. It is difficult rigt now to see how you will ever be able to arrive at a joint decision. But consider this....<p>You have formed an position/opinion based on your needs and the information available to you. Your needs are many and complex...your opinion takes them all into account. The information you have is sketchy (your only estimating what your future holds, whether it will be better or worse to move) and your position takes the benefits/risks into account. Your opinion/position isn't the work of a fool - you have givin it all the consideration you can think of. <p>Well ....here's the part that you might disagree with .... your H is no fool either. He has considered his needs, his information and the benfits/risks to him. He is resisting the move because he doesn't believe it is the right thing to do. His reasons are 100% as valid as yours. <p>Using the POJA is a process where you combine all of your needs with his, all of your information with his and then consider the benefits and risks to "us" as a couple rather than as individuals. <p>You already have the ability to consider a complex set of needs - yours alone are complex and you managed to consider all of them. Adding your H's needs to your consideration just makes the stew a bit thicker. You may prefer to think that your needs are more important than his, but if you sit there long enough without dinner, hunger will set in and you will become less arrogant. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Your H may have different information than you...different experiences or reasoning he is using to extrapolate and predict the future. You may not trust his "experience" as much as your own, but they are just as valid. When you chose to explore his experiences and listen with the purpose of understanding his reasoning (as opposed to arguing against it) you will eventually begin to appreciate the value of his perspective. <p>If you understand his needs and his perspective, give them equal value with your own, then you can make a decision you will both be content with. This is the easy part because the solution will seem so simple. If it doesn't then make a matrix on paper - list all the combined needs and fears on one side, the choices you have across the top. Then considere if choice A meets need 1...s on and so forth. <p>If none of the choices fulfill ALL the needs (or satisfy all the fears) then think about what other actions can be added to the equation to help. For example, if your H fears moving because of the financial burdon then maybe renegotiating your budget to include the expense so you know exactly what other "benefits" would be sacrificed would help resolve the fear. If you fear being "trapped" forever then maybe setting up a meeting every three months to revisit the issues would help resolve your fear. <p>One need at a time you work to arrive at a solution that encompasses all of your needs, fears and feelings. You will be surprised how good it feels....especially when you finally get to sit down and eat (or go to bed....we usually have our negotiations at night). <p>Sometimes with real big decision it takes us more than one "meeting" to resolve all the issues. As long as the meetings are close together so that you don't lose momentum the process still works. However, W and I have fallen into the trap many times of becoming busy and leaving the issue too long after the first meeting. We lose respect for each others point of view and wind up starting all over again. This can be frustrating. Hang in there and set the meetings up as close together as possible.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>The whole point of the 'do nothing' part is to force both parties to brainstorm their a**es off in order to reach a mutually enthusiastic solution.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi, Cerri! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I gotta ask you something, okay? <p>What do you do when one spouse wants to do 'Nothing', and the other spouse agrees to it ONLY to keep the peace? You know what I'm getting at here, huh? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My W refuses to deal with conflict at all! "Just ignor it, and it will go away." [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (That's her idea.) <p>Then, you said, "So, if your spouse won't POJA his or her choices and you are unhappy, by the rule of honesty you need to say so. With respect, and without demands or anger."<p>If I tell my W that I am NOT happy with ignoring conflicts, and I want to resolve them, she'll take that as a DEMAND! She isn't interested in what, or how I feel. But, she's happy as long as we don't discuss our relationship. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I guess my question is: How long can you go on playing this game? I mean, I have enjoyed the peace we've had lately. I really have! But, she doesn't feel safe, and I'm loosing my LB balance out of resentment for her! What's wrong with this picture? I mean, in the meantime, either one of us could fall for an OP! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I don't want that, but I'm NOT so sure about W! I think that (for now) I'm her ONLY best alternative! <p>You guys keep telling me that my W doesn't feel protected! And, I agree that (clearly) this appears to be the case! But, me being quiet, and not being honest about how I feel is tearing me apart! What's the point of POJA when one of you isn't happy, and can't be honest about it due to fear of the other's rejection? <p>Then you said, "If a combination of honesty and following POJA to the best of your ability does not effect change in the relationship, then you have a couple of choices. You can choose to live in a marriage that is not fulfilling, and where resentment will eventually build to dislike. Or you can go to Plan B. Or you can choose to leave altogether."<p>Isn't there another solution? I mean, leave 'em, Divorce 'em, or be unhappy? Surely there's another way to resolve and repair a M? Don't you think? Just a thought...... <p>God Bless! <p>HT<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: HurtTired ]</p>

HT,
Your wife has been in and out of deep withdrawal for a long time. Although my theoretical position in radical honesty, in a case like yours where she doesn't feel safe, you need to get that under control first.<p>As you know, I don't believe in Plan A as a lifestyle choice. That is tatamount to unconditional love, where you give and give and give, expecting nothng in return... and it ultimately leads to resentment, affairs, and other icky things.<p>However, I think that you need to hone safety skills before you can move onto the honesty POJA stuff. She needs to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that EVERY conversation you have will be safe. Safe, safe, safe. No raised voice, smile never ever slips, courteous, cooperative, respectful, gentle. Until you get to the place where that is habitual for you, you aren't going to have any luck with the other stuff.<p>Ok, so having said that.....
If you are unhappy about something, you have a right to say so. And under the rule of radical honesty, an obligation (taking into account what I said above). But WHAT you say and HOW you say it and when you STOP speaking are big parts of doing it right.<p>It is ok to say, "Sweetheart, I'd like to spend more time with you."<p>It's not ok to say, "You spend all your time with your friends and colleagues, you obviously care more about them than you do about me!"<p>It's ok to say," Gee, I'm unhappy that you did _____." (preferably with a smile, a gentle tone, and a manner that is not crisis oriented. Just a short, simple, factual statement.)<p>If she blows up, as I know your wife is prone to doing. Then it is UP TO YOU not to take the bait. You MUST maintain safety. If she blows up or gets upset then you need to end the conversation. Saying something like, "I'm sorry, I can see you're upset, let's talk about this later," with a soft voice and a tone of concern..... and then change the subject or WALK AWAY.<p>POJA starts with being honest about what you feel, what you need, and how your spouse's actions affect you. But you must do it an atmosphere of care, protection, and cooperation.<p>Cerri

I think this discussion about POJA is extremely educational, particularly the examples.

Some POJA links: (Just 2 of the MANY that are here)<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5041d_qa.html<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html<p>If you go to either of these links (or any for that matter) you'll see on the left side of the page many others on related topics.<p>Really, you should check these out if you want to understand what Marriage Builders is all about [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri

This is good too. It might be my favorite.<p>
POJA when very incompatible

bumpity bump bumpity --- to the top we go...<p>Jan

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Hi Kathi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Hi Cerri!

Kathi

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Interesting thread,,,,thanks for the information,,,,I had some real concerns about POJA (When what you want vs what your Spouse wants breaks your moral code) that I discussed on the "In Recovery" forum, but this information was truly helpful. Years ago <Pre-MB> I donated a kidney to my sister which my husband CLEARLY did not want me to donate. I felt as a moral decision I had no choice,,,,he was terrified I would die,,,,there simply seemed to be no compromising it. I donated it, and he was resentful for years. However, in talking with him about it NOW that our marriage is recovering, we came to a couple of conclusions. It's so much easier to be enthusiastic about what your spouse wants when your needs are being met,,,his weren't at the time, and I think he would have resented ANYTHING I wanted at the time,,,he isn't just a jerk who didn't want me to do anything to save my sister's life,,he was a human being who resented that it seemed that I got what I wanted at the expense of his fear,,there was so much more I could have done to make him more comfortable,,,,we could have POJA'd a visit with the surgeon so he could hear how very small the chance was that I would be hurt in any permanent way,,,,We could have POJA'd saving money in advance so that the month I took off work wouldn't have made so much of a difference in our lifestyle at that time,,,anyway, I just wanted to thank you for the information on POJA,,it should be very useful,,,,Holly

Hello,
I'm new here and the POJA has me completely baffled. My marriage is definitely on the rocks, has been for a long time, we've been stupid enough to allow resentment build to dislike. We are finally trying to salvage it and I am glad I found this site.

However... for example.. right now he is at a hockey game. I HATE spectator sports. He loves to watch all sports on TV and go to games when he can. I love to spend time on the computer and he is the original non-techy. The list goes on, we have VERY FEW activities that we both enjoy. I guess that's how we got in trouble. So what do I do when he wants to go to a hockey game? I don't think I could do it without resenting wasting so much of my time. I wouldn't mind it if H wanted to interact with me during the game, but he is very focused and I may as well not be there.

I think it's fine if he goes and I stay home and do stuff. Is that okay according to the POJA, especially if we both agree? We've been married 24 years, have suffered through H's PA and my EA years later, and need to do something before it falls apart. Thanks! ByGrace

Any comments? Thanks! ByGrace

bygrace,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's fine if he goes and I stay home and do stuff. Is that okay according to the POJA, especially if we both agree? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The POJA simply means that you do not do things that your spouse cannot happily agree with...so, yes, as long as you both agree happily, that is fine. Maybe you are thinking of another MB principle (The Rule of Time) that states that a couple should spend 15 hours of "quality" time together. The idea is not to be joined at the hip, but to guard a sufficient amount of "couple time". While I do think that spending sufficient time together enjoying each other's compnay and meeting each others ENs is very important...I will say that many of us don't get anywhere close to 15 hours most weeks!

Hope that helps.

Kathi

<<<I think it's fine if he goes and I stay home and do stuff. Is that okay according to the POJA, especially if we both agree? >>>

I'm with Kam,,,,,if you both enthusiastically agree, why not?? But it would also be great if you could spend more time together,,,,what if you POJA'd the game and then DINNER afterwards at a restaurant (that you're both enthusiastic about) so you could get some UDA?? You might not feel so resentful if he gave you UDA at dinner and you used it for a really romantic date <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Just a thought,,,,,Holly

Thanks healing heart and kam,

Good suggestions. We have a lot of work to do to get to the point where we actually enjoy each other. After a PA EA by him and EA by me on-line more recently, we have a lot of hurts to overcome. I ordered HNHN and Lovebusters books and wonder about Surviving Infidelity book. His A was 12 years ago, mine was just last year and he doesn't know about it first. I am reluctant to share that with him because we haven't resolved issues from his A yet... Oh my... lots of work to make this thing work. My best wishes to you both... ByGrace

Actually, Harley's predominant thought on recreational time is that you spend it together. Joined at the hip? Not exactly. But the idea is that we fall in love with those whom we associate with our most enjoyable moments.

So, if your best time is on the computer and his is at sports events, then by comparison the time you spend together can and probably will seem boring.

There are sooooo many recreational activities to choose from. The key to building a compatible relationship... and a marriage where you find each other irresistable... is to choose activites that you can both enjoy together.

Does that rule out the other things? Not entirely, but it does mean that they should be secondary to the things you do together, and not done as frequently.

Yeah, there are things you'll have to give up. Those are the choices we make every day. Every good thing that we want requires us to give up something else. Even something as mundane as a trip to the grocery store can bring that message home. Some things you get to have and others you need to bypass... no one's budget (excepting perhaps Mr. Gates, QEII and a few others) allows unlimited purchases.

The same is true of marriage. The Love Bank is called that for a reason. It truly is a mathematical phenomenon. So spending your most enjoyable time away from your spouse is the same as squandering your grocery budget on non essentials.

If you are at this site, then I assume that you place your marriage at a high priority in your life. I can assure you that no recreation is as important as doing what it takes to make your marriage the best it can be. And to do that you will need to let some things go. The rewards though are well worth it!

If you have other questions about POJA you can find me at the JFO board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Oh, one other thing. Harley is adamant about (and you rarely if ever see it here at the forum) is that there is NO WAY your marriage can recovery from infidelity or neglect without a minimum or 15 hours per week of undivided attention. Fifteen is the guideline for marriages that are doing well. For those in trouble, add more hours. As much as 20 or 30.

Can't do it? What are you doing instead that's more important to your future success, stasbility, health and that of your children, than your marriage?

This is time that needs to be scheduled and prioritized. During that time couples should be meeting the needs of Conversation, Affection, Rcreational Companionship, and Sexual Fulfillment.

Without making those 15 hours per week a part of your lifestyle, there is nothing you can do to restore the feelings of romantic love to your marriage.

C

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<small>[ March 02, 2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kam6318:
<strong>♠</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Kathi!!

Ok, I saw someone else had a heart and now I see you have a spade. How the heck did you guys do that??? And yes, I really am that technologically behind the times.

C

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Just curious ...

Is this the same Cerri that gives counseling?

Dee

Yes, it is.

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bump~~~~~~~~~marriage builders stuff~~~~~~~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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<small>[ September 09, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

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Just adding a comment to POJA that may have already been stated.

It can work always but both spouses must have the right mind frame for POJA. If wife goes into it with only one thought, "I love my husband and I want to give "him" what "he" wants." and husband goes into it with "I love my wife and I want to give "her" want "she" wants. Then their will ALWAYS be a compromise made. However, I would bet too many times people miss this point and they go into thinking in the end "I" had BETTER get what I want or if I don't fight for what "I" want then we will end up doing what she/he wants.

To me POJA is defined in two words, "unselfish compromising".

Cerri girl,

I posted a thread to you on D/D, just saying "Hi!". No hurries as I figure eventually you'll see it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Love ya ♥

ANNA

<small>[ October 25, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</small>

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time for a bump...

This thread has helped me crystallize my thoughts aboutPOJA that led to the thread I started.

After reading all the comments (and all Dr. harley's columns on the subject I could find), I see two problems with the POJA.

First, it assumes that there _must_ be a solution that both spouses can be enthusiatic about. What reason do we have to think that's true? The "enthusiastic" standard puts a huge burden on brainstorming--it rules out accomodations both spouses can live with even though neither may be enthusiastic about. It rules out compromise. (I've seen posts referring to POJA leading to compromise, but if both are enthusiastic I certainly wouldn't call it a compromise.)

Let me try an example. Let's imagine I've lost sexual interest in my wife because I think she's too fat. (This is _purely_ hypothetical and does not reflect reality!) I can imagine various compromises involving meeting each other half way, such as me finding a way to be more tolerant of her appearance and her losing some weight (but not as much as I'd like. That might well be a workable solution. But unless one of us undergoes a radical personality change, neither of us will be enthusiastic about the solution. So, according to POJA we reject the solution.

The second problem I see (which may underlie first) is the implicit assumption that all problems in a marriage result from a spouse's action, but inaction is never a problem. Actually it's fiarly explicit in at least one place. In "Following the Policy of Joint Agreement
When You're VERY Incompatible, Letter #2" Dr. Harley says: "There are two kinds of resentment: (1) Resentment due to something one of you DID to the other that was hurtful, and (2) resentment due to something you DIDN'T do for yourself that you would have liked, but would have hurt your spouse." He ignores resentment due to something one spouse DOESN'T due resulting in the other spouse's needs not being met. In my example, my wife's resentment doesn't result from something I did (type 1) or from something she didn't do (type 2), so it doesn't fit into Dr. Harley's paradigm at all.

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, a great deal depends on what is regarded as "doing something." (Actually this is a common issue in moral philisophy: the same action can be described in many ways, and our judgment about the morality of the action can depend heavily on the description.) Now, we can define my hypothetical refusal to have sex with my wife as "doing something," but once we go down that road every action and inaction becomes a case of "doing something." At that point the POJA collapses entirely because it's impossible to do nothing.

If someone can tell me I'm all wrong and explain why, I'll be delighted.

Bump for wasp