DJ<p>At least you were honest about what happened, I respect you for that!!<p>Back sliding is no suprise. You are new to this resolve. The strength to do what you need to do takes time and knowledge.<p>You are an amazing young woman. It takes a ton of courage to come on this forum and stay with all of us for 10pages.<p> I truly believe that you will sever yourself from this leach and be stronger for it. I wish my own daughter were so wise. <p>You deserve a relationship with a real man
not a cakeman.<p>[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: gottruth? ]</p>

DJ,<p>Glad to see you are here and still working on this for you. I'm also happy to hear your mother is ok. <p>I can see that the hurt that you have knowing he is with OW4 is real, and I'm sure you know that this pain will keep coming back over and over until you end it once and for all. You only need to take control of your life back from him - you have the power. <p>When he says to be somewhere and then doesn't come, he just keeps showing you that he isn't the wonderful man you imagine. He probably is having trouble juggling all of the women and is using you as "the standby" because he knows you will take it. Take control with the no contact letter as others have suggested for your own well being. He certainly doesn't care about you as much as you want to imagine he does as evidenced by his own actions. <p>And isn't planning the W's birthday party or helping him with it just a good reminder that he is married and intends to stay that way? This seems to me to be a form of abuse towards you. I'm guessing you want his approval and would help to get that, but somewhere inside, you must be feeling a bit conflicted on this request no?<p>Why not start by just sitting and writing the no contact letter? Going through that process should strengthen your resolve. One step at a time to get you through. Maybe posting this letter to this group would make it easier to take the next step of giving it to him. I'm sure others here could help you refine it or have suggestions on getting started. <p>Please don't stay away from your support group so long this time [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Best wishes

Hello everyone! Thanks for all of your replies and continued encouragement, even though I blew it the first time and apologize for that.<p>Well, he still has been calling me, leaving messages. I'm not answering his calls or emails. As many of you suggest, I should work on the no contact letter, and just leave it for him. <p>I know he will be filled with excuses for me seeing him with that woman. He is good at stories and always comes up with an answer. I can't believe I could have been so fooled by him. How could I have been so dumb??? How could he have come into my life and just sweep me off my feet...when I should have been smarter than that??<p>I'm avoiding him until I get the no contact letter finished. Thanks for the offer of help on it. If I get in a pinch, I'll let you know. I just need time to sit and collect my thoughts and write it.<p>Well, I just wanted to let you know what has been happening. I've been busy catching up on things that I've neglected while I've been at the hospital with Mom. She is home and is doing great. <p>Hope all of you are doing well, also. I do appreciate the care and concern everyone has given me. You are helping me so much! Take care and I'll be in touch!

Hi Dj,<p>You sound just a little better, a little more determined ! This is good ! And the power you will get from the no contact letter will be incredible. It will hurt, let's not deny that one. But it will give you some control over him, for probably the first time in your relationship. And remember some of the pointers given by everyone here. Don't make it too flowery, don't make it too long.Sound serious and firm.But you can be kind as well, just do not leave areas for him to read hope into it. I wanted to leave a little spark in mine when I wrote it, but decided not to. And he has respected me and has not tried to contact me since the letter.I still love him beyond words, but will not act on those feelings.Someone asked me once, if he left her, would you date him again. Hard to say, but he would need at least 6 months alone to get his act together. Men cannot live without a woman, or so it seems (sorry to all the men out there ).And your OM seems to like lots of women to "help him out".
Hope you are doing okay. We will all keep you in our prayers.And you have no reason to apologize to any of us, just yourself.<p>Mary

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Delicia ]<p>[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Delicia ]</p>

<small>[ March 17, 2005, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

DJ-I just wanted to let you know, I'm still pulling for you even if I haven't posted anything and am supposed to be leaving the board.<p>I just spend a lot of time replying and that's mostly what I'm avoiding, but I'm interested to see what happens to those folks to whom I have become acquainted. Don't want to leave myself hanging.<p>Hoping

Hello to all!<p>Well, after avoiding his calls, he caught me unexpectedly and we came face to face. I didn't have much choice but to talk to him. We didn't have time for a deep discussion, but I mentioned seeing him in the car with the OW. I knew he would have a story. He said she was "a business associate"...oh come on!! (Ha! He must have forgotten that long ago that was the same story he said he would use about us, if he had to.)<p>A few days ago, I was strong and determined to do the right thing. Then today, I'm in one of those down, depressed moods. I just want to keep him in my life somehow. (Even though I know that's impossible.) I do need to write the no contact letter soon, but I don't want to say goodbye for good. He truly is not what I saw him to be. He was such a bright ray of sunshine which now turned into a dark, gloomy cloud. So why is it so hard for me to put a closure on this once and for all????<p>And yes, Want2FixIt, it seems I am the "standby". But maybe that is all I really deserve to be. I know he will stay married (and I want him to), so I never expected more with him. My disappointment is because I never expected another OW to enter the picture. (But then again, I shouldn't have been in the picture, to begin with!) I know HE is the one with the problem....he said he was happy with me...I did nothing wrong to cause this....he admit it was HIS problem....but I still feel like I failed him somehow...or he wouldn't have done this.<p>Odile, thank you for sharing your story. My sympathy to you on the loss of your brother. People do make poor choices sometimes (I sure know I have). I guess people expect the grass to be greener on the other side of the fence, but when we get there we find out that it isn't. In spite of the way life turned out, it sounds like your parents do have a deep, long-lasting love for each other. <p>I know I need to get this guy out of my life for good (and soon, too). I've known that for a long time, just feel so empty without him.<p>As you can probably tell, it isn't a good day. I'm depressed and confused. I've gotten so much support and encouragement here, that it should be easy for me to do what I have to do. But, this guy really is the love of my life....why, I don't know. <p>Everyone has been so patient with me and I thank you for that.

djmusicbox,<p>I'm sure that everyone can say they have better days than others. The key is you know where you need to go, and have taken steps in the right direction. You say <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>it seems I am the "standby". But maybe that is all I really deserve to be<hr></blockquote> but I disagree. You really deserve a relationship that can bring lifetime of happiness. I think you know deep down it is just a matter of time before this relationship is over, so why not end it on YOUR terms instead of HIS? You will feel better about yourself for taking control of your life. I know someone that clung to a man for 15 years hoping somehow he would eventually ask her to marry her. As it turns out, he ended up marrying someone about 15 years younger than her and she remains unmarried. Why waste any more time with this man who does not deserve you? Go find someone who will love you without hinderence?<p>We all have bad days but tomorrow is a new day. Don't give up the fight.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> it seems I am the "standby". But maybe that is all I really deserve to be<hr></blockquote><p>DJ, this is exactly the type of feeling that Mr. Worm (MM) feeds off of to continue to manipulate you. Yes, he chose you because of this attitude that you don't DESERVE better. You do deserve better. HE will never convince you (or even try to) that you do deserve better. Your self-confidence undermines his uses for you. I know this is harsh, but it is true. <p>You DESERVE better, much better.
You DESERVE to be happy, much happier.
You DESERVE respect.
You DESERVE real love.<p>I think that you would greatly benefit from some counseling to understand just how great a person you really are, and how much you really deserve.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

DJ<p>The love of your life?<p>Dj, could you have missued the word love. Could you define love please.<p>Maybe a better word is need. The need of your life. Is it possible that in the begining he supplied a need for you. The need to be special cames to mind. <p>Actually, I believe this is what the emotional abuser does. He makes you feel special and needed. <p>My daughters MM was a great listener. She would tell him everything and he would valadate her in every way. His opinion was the most important to her. As she graved his approval, he started to with hold it. The hook is set.<p>I know that right now you feel a dreadfull loss. The need is more than you can bare. DJ, you are stronger than you think. Please reread this thread and see where you were a few days ago. <p>It's expected to feel depressed. It's expected that you might justify staying with him. But you won't do that now. Your eyes are seeing too clearly and it would never be the same. <p>You need your self-esteem back. I think one does this by doing selfesteemable things. I know this is hard but you deserve to do this.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But you won't do that now. Your eyes are seeing too clearly and it would never be the same. <hr></blockquote><p>That's true, DJ. You can never un-know what you've learned.

DJ,<p>I am sorry for your pain. I really am. You sound like a very confused lady, and it must hurt to have a someone cheat on you, even if he was already cheating with you [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>OK, with that said, I would like to remind you that you are on the Marriage Builders website. Regardless of how sad I am for your pain, I can't help but remember that there is a woman out there whose husband (your MM) is cheating on her. You are now on page 11 of your saga, and yet you are continuing to see this man, and thus continuing to destroy his marriage. Please don't tell me how his marriage is already ruined by his wicked wife blah blah blah. That's between him and her.<p>I tried to give you some advice here; others have too. Unfortunately, you have chosen to continue your affair, even though you (appear to) realize that it is wrong. When OP's come to this website and try to change their ways, they are certainly welcome. But realize that there are plenty of people here whose personal lives have been shattered by affairs, and it becomes quite painful to see someone post about their continuing affair. Don't get me wrong, I really hope that you can dump this guy and move on with your life. Also, I am by no means trying to be holier than thou, or tell you to stop posting. I just think that if you really want to get help for a continuing affair, you might do better at gloryb. I think people here might get frustrated with the fact that despite all the advice you've been given here, you are still continuing to see this married man.<p>I see some people here say that you deserve better. Frankly, I'm not sure I understand. Why do you deserve better? You have chosen to start sleeping with a married man, and continuing to do so for a long time. Why does that mean that you deserve better? What have you done to "deserve better"? Perhaps I don't understand that phrase, but from what I've seen so far, you have made your bed and are continuing to sleep in it, so you deserve what you get.<p>Gosh, this sounds like a total flame, and it is not meant to be, so my apologies. But, at the same time, I think the reality is that you are continuing to avoid doing the right thing, and are wallowing in the sadness of the consequences of your own actions; at some point, I think it may be better to stop validating the harmful behaviors and to say "enough", start living the rest of your life.<p>Write that no contact letter, send it, and stick to it. Then I'll be more than happy to support you! But, I cannot support you continuing to "bump" into this guy...<p>Sorry for the rant... I'll edit this out if it creates too much controversy... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>AGG

Now think of your pain, and multiply it by at least 4 to understand his wife's pain. And the fact that she's being exposed to countless stds. And lives with a liar and a cheater but doesn't know it. Not very nice thought is it?

AGoodGuy,<p>I think your post makes valid points but here's my perspective. Those that are strong should help those that are weak, even if they have done something that we don't like. Right now, my W is the WS and I could easily have no empathy for DJ if I chose not to. I chose to, because I feel I can overlook her actions on the hope she will change. By helping her we are indirectly helping the MM family also which is a good thing. For me, I may get insights into my W's state of mind so that helps me.<p>So why would I say she deserves better? This is based upon a judgement that she is basically a good person that has made a BIG mistake, like many of us on this board, and needs to get out of it. If people here can provide the knowledge and encouragment, then by all means she is in the right place.<p>I believe that those who are hurting from OP should avoid threads like this if it brings too much pain. I think most do anyway.<p>DJ, you have the knowledge of what to do, you know the pain that you are causing to the people involved, take the next step and write the letter. Don't allow the addiction to this man to ruin your's and others lifes. If you are sincere about getting out of this relationship, then please stick around here and feel welcome. If you are not sincere, then I would agree with AGG that you should go away and come back when you are ready to make a change. I for one will be here to encourage and help you if I can.

DJ<p>I would like to reply to agoodguy here on your thread.<p>AGG
While I agree with ALL that you said and also agree that it needed to be said, I have another thought.<p>DJ has been in a FOG of denial and even Harley says that this takes time to swim through. <p>DJ has been brain washed by this abuser and I do believe that she is seeing this. Right DJ?!?<p>DJ
Your letters are full of contradictions, your feelings vs. your reality. You know his BS and yet you crave denial. <p>This is what happens with knowledge, it gives you power, the power to do what you know is right. <p>You know that you want a relationship that is ALL yours.
You know that you have to "shut the door" on this distructive relationship in order for that to happen.
You know that if you don't, he will still have you as part of his HAREM in five years.
You know that HE does not LOVE you,because love
WON'T MAKE LIEING EXCUSES
ISN'T RUDE
ISN'T SELFISH
<<<<<<<<<WOULD WANT WHAT IS BEST FOR "YOU">>>>>>
DELIGHTS IN THE TRUTH
LOVE DOES NOT USE
You know that you have to swim through this pain in order to regain your self-esteem, and move on.<p>You have the knowledge. Print out this thread and read it over and over. This knowledge will give the strength to:
block his calls
block his E-address
You owe him nothing.<p>Write a note:
I want to move on and have a love that is ALL mine. If you ever cared for me, show me by not contacting me ever again.<p>OK DJ, step up to the plate.

Want2FixIt and gottruth?,<p>Thanks for not blasting my rant [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] . Like I said at the outset, I would like to be able to help DJ get out of her situation. That's why I told her to not see the MM, but to write him the no-contact note. Yet I see that she is continually managing to "run into" him... She is not giving us the gory details, thankfully, but I am inferring that they are doing a bit more than just "bumping" into each other.<p>I guess I can accept that DJ is weak and is having trouble letting go of this love of her life. I would be happy to validate her feelings of pain and angst. What I am protesting against is validation of her continuing self-destructive (not to mention other-people-destructive) actions. She knows what she needs to do, and she is choosing not to do it. <p>On a personal level, I empathize with DJ. It's sad to see anyone in pain. Yet let's not forget, that there is a Mrs. MM out there somewhere, from whom DJ is continuing to steal by having an affair. For all we know, Mrs. MM is posting on GQII right now, asking how to get her H to stop seeing all these other women. I guess I have to admit that given my own story, I tend to sympathize more with her situation than with DJ's. But even my personal bias aside, I think it is in DJ's best interest to simply do the right thing.<p>Unlike many OP's who come to MB to get support for their continued affairs, DJ actually seems to want to end hers. At some point, however, the actions start speaking louder than words. Writing a no-contact letter should have been fairly easy for DJ, yet she chose not to do that, and to see the MM instead. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the excuses of "oh, he always knows what to say to make me do whatever he wants to, even arrange his W's b-day party"... That is just plain sick...<p>When I see some steps by DJ to end this affair, I'll be the first (well, probably second) to cheer her on. But for now, all I see is the woe-is-me attitude which is part of denial.<p>Again, don't mean to flame DJ, but just to explain my thoughts on this.<p>AGG

Ok, some more advice that will sting. First of all, he will NOT be cheating on you with the next OW. He will be cheating on his wife - again. He has no committment to you, his committment is to his wife, whom he married. It was to her that he promised to "love, honor, and cherish, forsaking all others" - not to you. That's the committment he is breaking.<p>Second, while you are meeting some of the EN of this man, SO IS HIS WIFE. Maybe you realize this, but it is not apparent in your message. <p>Third, this man can AND DOES lie. He's lying to his wife, to whom he made a life-long committment. What makes you think that as the OW you are above the lies?<p>Fourth, this man does not seem to love his wife, you, or the other OW as much as he loves himself.<p>Conclusion - get out while you can. You are causing extreme grief to yourself and to another woman for the loyalty of a man that has none.<p>I'm re-posting this from earlier. I have a feeling that you need to read it again. <p>How you are feeling about the other OW? How his wife has felt for YEARS. Hers are far more justifiable feelings, though, because she had the committment of marriage to base her expectations of fidelity on.<p>You DON'T. I'm not sure how I can make this any more clear.<p>Would you get in her car and drive it all over town whenever you wanted to? Do whatever you wanted with it? No, of course not, that's absurd. Let me explain something, though, you are doing it with her HUSBAND, and that is far more hurtful and absurd than the car example. <p>You are getting run over in the process. You do deserve better, but SO DOES HIS WIFE. So what if she doesn't meet all of his emotional needs? It is NOT your place to step in and do it. So what if his marriage could be better? He should go to marital counseling - not another woman. She could be the most horrible person on earth, but MM is still HER husband. In that case, he should divorce, then move on. <p>Of course, he doesn't want to. He wants a harem. As many as he wants, when he wants. What an egocentrical, self-absorbed, pompous jack-a**!<p>You are not responsible for his actions. You are responsible for yours, though. I agree with AGG on this one, you do need to put your money where your mouth is. You know you are doing the wrong thing, and you feel guilty. Guilt is a natural response to knowingly doing the wrong thing. Your guilt does not make up for the wrong actions you took; you still need to stop.<p>I re-iterate counseling for you. You seem to have severe self-esteem issues, and I think a bit of an addictive personality.<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Takola ]</p>

I'd like to send a warm thank you for the supportive comments by Want2FixIt and Marry.<p>To AGG and Takola:
I can understand your frustration with me and apologize if I offend you (or anyone else). I realize that interference by an OP has hurt a great many people here. I am sincere when I say that I DO NOT want this affair to continue. I am not asking for sympathy or wallowing in self-pity.<p>The recent contact that I've had with him has NOT been physical....I've found phone messages and emails from him. I have NOT called him nor emailed him. I do not arrange to "run into him". Due to our job duties and locations, occasional passing on the street is unavoidable. <p>Yes, I am having trouble letting him go. I think anyone who is capable of loving someone would have trouble letting them go, no matter what the circumstances are. I agree with Marry in saying that I have been in a fog of denial. He was my image of the "perfect man" (if there could be such a thing). Thanks to all the insight I've gotten, I now see him for what he really is: a man with a compulsion to cheat, as many times as necessary, for self-gratification.<p>You say that writing the no contact letter should have been fairly easy. Why? Yes, I am angry and disappointed with him, but it is still not an easy thing to do. I know it needs to be done, and I will do it. I am not making excuses but my time has been hectic lately with family and work issues. Writing the no contact letter is one more thing I will deal with.<p>Marry also made the point that "my eyes are seeing too clearly and it would never be the same". She is so right. The spark and excitement I used to feel when I heard his voice is gone. I've learned too much about him. Although I'll always love him dearly, I've changed and do not want to be with him.<p>Takola, as an adult, I take full responsibility for my actions. I am to blame -- not him, not his wife, or the state of their marriage. I never passed the blame onto anyone. As for his wife, a marriage based on a lack of trust, doubt and tension must not be a happy one. I do sympathize with her for that. <p>And, thank you to Want2FixIt for seeing that I am basically a good person who made a BIG mistake. That is exactly what happened. I'm not a mean, vicious OW bent on destroying someone's life. I'm not out to find happiness at someone else's expense. Marriage and family are very important to me. I fell in love and made the wrong choice. It wasn't planned, but it happened. <p>I will do the right thing, as soon as I can. Thank you everyone for your care and concern.

I'd like to send a warm thank you for the supportive comments by Want2FixIt and Marry.<p>To AGG and Takola:
I can understand your frustration with me and apologize if I offend you (or anyone else). I realize that interference by an OP has hurt a great many people here. I am sincere when I say that I DO NOT want this affair to continue. I am not asking for sympathy or wallowing in self-pity.<p>The recent contact that I've had with him has NOT been physical....I've found phone messages and emails from him. I have NOT called him nor emailed him. I do not arrange to "run into him". Due to our job duties and locations, occasional passing on the street is unavoidable. <p>Yes, I am having trouble letting him go. I think anyone who is capable of loving someone would have trouble letting them go, no matter what the circumstances are. I agree with Marry in saying that I have been in a fog of denial. He was my image of the "perfect man" (if there could be such a thing). Thanks to all the insight I've gotten, I now see him for what he really is: a man with a compulsion to cheat, as many times as necessary, for self-gratification.<p>You say that writing the no contact letter should have been fairly easy. Why? Yes, I am angry and disappointed with him, but it is still not an easy thing to do. I know it needs to be done, and I will do it. I am not making excuses but my time has been hectic lately with family and work issues. Writing the no contact letter is one more thing I will deal with.<p>Marry also made the point that "my eyes are seeing too clearly and it would never be the same". She is so right. The spark and excitement I used to feel when I heard his voice is gone. I've learned too much about him. Although I'll always love him dearly, I've changed and do not want to be with him.<p>Takola, as an adult, I take full responsibility for my actions. I am to blame -- not him, not his wife, or the state of their marriage. I never passed the blame onto anyone. As for his wife, a marriage based on a lack of trust, doubt and tension must not be a happy one. I do sympathize with her for that. <p>And, thank you to Want2FixIt for seeing that I am basically a good person who made a BIG mistake. That is exactly what happened. I'm not a mean, vicious OW bent on destroying someone's life. I'm not out to find happiness at someone else's expense. Marriage and family are very important to me. I fell in love and made the wrong choice. It wasn't planned, but it happened. <p>I will do the right thing, as soon as I can. Thank you everyone for your care and concern.<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: djmusicbox ]</p>