Just for the record - before you read this as me unnecessarily SCRAEMING at you [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] which I MAY do --- but it's done in the very best interests of all concerned if I do... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I just wanted to let you know that incontinence, and prolapse are not strictly the result of pregnancy or multiple pregnancies, and you are driving me insane again with your 'insinuations' (for lack of a better word) that being childless is in some way BETTER than having children. <p>WHEW!!! I had to say that. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Keagles are helpful exercises for ANYONE to do male/female/parents/non-parents/anyoneelsewhohappenstohaveapelvicfloor (and most of us do - unless we've been surgically altered or are somehow deformed). <p>I've had four children - lost two to miscarriage (besides the four that I was blessed to keep) - had a tilted U before I ever had children - still have a tilted U - and have done keagles since I was 20 and the Dr pointed out that I seemed to have a problem with developing incontinence due to lack of a valve (have no clue which one) in my bladder. Unless I sneeze hard enough to generate a 6.0 on the rictor scale or fall on the floor laughing at some unrighteous joke, I seldom have any problem with incontinence, and I still do keagles at least 100 a day. I'm doing them right now sitting at my desk and no one but YOU knows... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>BTW - for the record - my oldest child is 16 almost 17 and I've been doing at least 100 keagles a day for more than 20 years... so I started long before child birth. After four children --- two nine plus pounders --- vaginally delivered and all the medical checks I've had over 20 plus years --- I've been told I'm pretty tight. And that coming from my STBXH who was 'pencil thin'. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Now for that SCREAMING thing.... If you chose not to have children, I'm happy for you. If you are glad you are childless, I applaud you for having a full and happy life. <p>But please stop insinuating that those of us who have children are in some way misinformed or misled. I have four children because I wanted them - every single one of them - and to be perfectly honest ---- at the planning stage - the magic number was six. I do not believe the earth is a bad place to be, a bad place to raise children, or that children are being brought into a world that is unfit for human inhabitation... If you do - fine - that is your choice, your opinion and your feeling - and you are intitled to it, just as I am entitled to my opinions, choices, and feelings. I'll try really hard not to condemn you for not having children, if you'll please return the favor.<p>And while we are on the topic --- Men who impregnate women have options too - they can lock up the one eyed worm and keep it in their pants instead of hunting holes in which to insert it. If they don't want children - sexual intercourse is definately NOT an option they should pursue. <p>Okay --- I feel better - I'm sure I'm starting another warring debate - which is not entirely my intent. I just feel a need to present another side of a case that seems to be rearing it's head on the board once again.<p>Blessings,<p>Jan

There is nothing wrong with wanting kids, and conversely, there is nothing wrong with not wanting them.<p>I had two at a young age. I'm 28 and my sons are 6 and 3. When I discuss parenthood with my childless friends, I tell them that I love my kids, but for them, if they are not 100% sure that they want kids, then they shouldn't have them.<p>BTW, I'm sorry to hear about your STBXH's "pencil thinness". I guess that will be someone else's problem soon.

<threatening to start another swinging thread> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Neither here nor there...but I had a childless co-worker who finally pushed my buttons until I gave back tit-for-tat. Unfortunate, really, because we were very good friends for several years despite our many differences.<p>One of those people who would compliment but always add a "clever" insult at the end? Constantly.<p>Our last exchange of any length eroded into her saying she thought I had a miserable life, a wild, long-haired biker H with THAT job, so tied down, all those kids and worries, she pitied me. PITIED ME???? Hmmph! I blew. I told her to take a hard look at HER pitiful life...dressing up a miniature poodle LIKE a child while belittling people with children. And what's more, my H does indeed manage a strip club but he doesn't frequent clubs WEEKLY for pleasure like HERS does. AND, at least my H HAS hair!!!<p>I still can't believe I said those things!

It's sad to see someone who desperately wants children and can't have them - but it's devastating to children to be born into homes where they are unwanted. <p>Guess I just want them so much that I had extras to make up for those who don't want them... Cuz I LOVE my kids!!! They are the light of my life - and I can't imagine life without them!!! <p>They are a blessing every day!!!<p>Jan

<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Lulu ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lucks:
<strong>AND, at least my H HAS hair!!!<p>I still can't believe I said those things!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Me either, that's COLD !!!

Sorry to rile you all up, Seeking, I am glad you want your kids and had "my share" of the kids, you would be a much better mother than me. I guess what I find hard to understand is a person who is totally stressed out to the limit and has no money and major marriage problems. Then, what do they do, they go ahead and choose to have a 5th baby or something. Then they spend the rest of their life complaining about their rotten life they created, their lack of quality time, money, etc. Perhaps there is some way to get one's life together a bit before having children! I guess I just hate that life is so darn imperfect. I hate to see children bear the brunt of stressed out, unhappy parents(like my own parents). My childhood was terrible. Why bring kids into this type of thing? <p>And our society lies about the physical risks of birth. 40% of women after giving birth have some form of incontinence. This is only one of the risks of birth. Look at ILMF's wife. GEEZE! Why do we lie about the physical risks. Can't women be told the truth? But I am speaking from the point of view that the risks are not worth the finished product for me. The women who like to have kids are from the other point of view that all the physical risks to you are totally worth it in order to come out with the child in the end. <p>If you think it is all worth it, go for it! I do things and take risks in life that you all would never do. But it is truly worth it to me! You can yell at me all you want, it does not bother me. I have my problems to but I basically have a very happy life, the best one I ever had. I have worked hard for years to "make it so". <p>I took notes on the Kegels however. Maybe if I did 100 a day, my husband would want sex more, lol!

Lulu ---<p>Baba and I have been at this for a while --- I'm not MUCH [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] harder on her than she is on me. No offense intended. I just feel there are two perspectives, and sometimes baba2 puts hers out rather strongly too. <p>Thanks for the input however. I'll back off on her, I'm too busy raising her share of kids to worry too much about all this! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Slappy ---- if you had hair Pam would have pulled it all out by now! Besides there are only so many perfect heads out there - the rest God covered with hair!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>baba2 ---<p>I was just reminding you that there is another perspective - thought you might have forgotten.<p>Keagles do help! and you can do them anywhere. even driving down the highway - as long as you don't tell the HP what you were doing when you crashed!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jan

When I was childless, I thought that best, when I had little ones I thought that best, now I have very big ones and it's the best.<p>Other than minor stress incontinence, quickly dealt with, I have none of the supposed side effects of 4 pregnancies, not even stretch marks. On the other hand I have had breast cancer which is supposed to be less likely with childbearing.<p>I've always loved Twains remark "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." <p>Take care

Seeking, do you feel better today? I hope so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bump, for ILMF

<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Lulu ]</p>

ILMF was asking who was being targeted for being childfree so I bumped this one up for him. It is more of a sin and worse being "childfree" on this board than having a torrid affair.

<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Lulu ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It is more of a sin and worse being "childfree" on this board than having a torrid affair.<hr></blockquote><p>baba, why on earth do you say that? If you mean what Jan posted, I don't think that was what she was saying at all. <p>Besides, nothing's worse than being a swinger. I win! I win! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

No, the worst is being an atheist. Well maybe a childless, swinging, cheating, atheist would be the worst.

Venting I guess. This woman has this affair and gets to vent all the juicy details for which she gets all this wonderful support as she is busy breaking up another family. She could care less about the other family. She expresses all her selfish views, etc. but<p> I, who am terrible honest, hard worker, good morals and responsible about birth control, helps the world around me, and everything else, well, I get personally flamed hugely for being childfree and expressing my views. I guess I should go out and have an affair or get accidently pregnant again and again and the board will like me more. <p>OK, now here is my story! I am pregnant with the OM's baby. Help! It is my third child and I don't really know how it happened. I have no money and my husband is not there for me. I must have somehow forgot to use birth control. I don't know what to do, please help me! <p>Wow, they would love me. Why? Because I would be so ignorant and helpless they could feel sorry for me. That's about how this board seems to me lately. If you are a real screwball, you get support.

LOL, I like the swinging, sinning, cheating, childless athiest! I am laughing now!

<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Lulu ]</p>

This one, Lulu. I guess it bothers me three days after she wrote it. Delayed reaction on my part.