For a couple of months now my wife has told me that she doesn't love me and never did. She claims that she loved me but was never in love with me. We have been married for 11 years and have two wonderful children and you would think that she could have said this a little sooner. She had asked me to move out when she first discussed this with me but i was totally shocked and afraid of what was happening. I stayed around trying to convince her to try working something out. Now 6 months later nothing has changed as she has made up her mind and that she still does not want to try. She says that she wants to miss me and the only way to do that would be if i wasn't around. All the years that we have been married we never spent more than 2 days apart. Should i be moving out or not? She is at the stage where if she does miss me then she will want to go to counseling but otherwise she sees no need.

Welcome aboard the "I don't love you, and probably never have" boat! Don't let these sorts of lines bother you because they are hogwash! If your W was that stupid to spend the last 11 years with you plus having children with you, and not having feelings for you, then maybe it is time to set her free anyway.<p>I must ask, do you think she is involved with another? <p>I have faced your dilemma in the past, and am about to again in the coming few weeks. I think the answer is to try and stay at home if it is positive for rebuilding the relationship. You must stick to a strict Plan A and not LB (I am assumming you have read the background information for this website).<p>You mention in your post that you that you tried to convince her to try and work it out (don't worry this is a common thing to do, I still do the same). These types of actions need to stop because it will pressure her. Your goal is to show her that you are the right man to have around. No pressuring her. It is all about you now! It is time to show her the new you. The more considerate you, the more caring you, the slimmer you (if you need to lose a few)... and lastly, the emotionally stronger you! <p>If she still wants you out, then your are going to have to show her this behavior from a distance. That means it will take more time. So my advice is to stay at home, but if it gets ugly and determental to rebuilding, then leave.<p>If you haven't already done so, read, read, read about the subject of relationships, marriage, etc. There aree plenty of books mentioned on the MB site for you to check out.<p>Good luck, Get busy!<p>Sweden

Thanks for responding sweden. I can tell you that she isn't having an affair but she had a crush on someone that she works with. I believe that he likes her too so it is hard for me to know for sure if there is anything still there. My wife says that there isn't anything going on so I do believe her. Of course I also believed everytime she said she loved me too. As far as staying at home, well it seems that we can't go a day without one of us discussing the relationship in a negative way. This always leads to an argument. Let me tell you that she is ready for divorce or moving out herself but because I work nights I would hate to put the kids through that right now as they would also move. Everytime we argue we do hurt each other in some way because I want to try and she wants out. I have tried not to argue but she hits me with something and it is hard not to fight back. The only good sign is that she hasn't filed and she is waiting to see what happens. I think that she needs some time to appreciate me and with me around all the time it is hard to do that. I hate to leave on bad terms. The other good sign is that we are still having sex often. I think that this is a good sign? I was thinking of just taking her to the bedroom tonight and telling her not to say a word and not to say no. Make love to her and then seperate the next day. This way I leave on a partially good note. Sound ok?

First of all, don't move out! You are concerned for your children and I think if you leave and things get messy down the road, you can be accused of abandoning your kids... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As far as your wife not having an "affair" I think it depends. If she has or had a crush on someone, then it sounds like an "emotional affair" where she is allowing someone else to meet her needs that YOU should be meeting.<p>Have you guys filled out the emotional needs and love buster questinnaires? You should try that! Maybe don't talk to each other for a few days, just chill out. Especially since every discussion leads to arguing. Just take a time-out to fill in the questionnaires and then agree on a date or make several dates to get together and calmly and rationally discuss your results. Start there.<p>But definitely do NOT move out!!!! You guys can and should fix this! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Welcome to MarriageBuilders!<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html

I should have explained my moving out a little better than I did. What me and my wife are planning on doing is as follows: On Mondays I have the kids and she is out of the house. On Tuesdays she has the kids and I am out of the house. On Wednesday I have the kids and she is out of the house. Thursdays she has the kids and I am out. Every other Friday we switch and every other weekend we switch. I work nights so the kids will always sleep with the wife except for every other weekend. I will sleep in my own bed everyday because I work nights and the only time I need to sleep somewhere else is every other weekend. So you see, even though I called it moving out it really is not. We are just planning on seeing what happens. Does this sound ok?

Starcastle I too had some what that arrangement with my X at first and then one day when I was out of the house she called me on the cell phone and told me not to bother coming home. She said she made up her mind and she didn't want to be married anymore. For your to feel this way she probably has a EA going on right now. I would not leave the house even on a temp basis. Good luck in your decision<p>Carl

SC1,
It sounds as though your work arrangement could work to your advantage--allowing you to stay in the house. My suggestion would still be to stay around on weekends too, this is speically good for the kids if you two can get along. What you are trying to do is to make your W curious about you again. You staying away and being the same old you isn't enough.
I think you probably must do a bit more reading so you can learn not to LB when you are home with your W. If you are discussing the relationship (and eventually arguing) while you are both there, then there is still a problem. Talk about your relationship to us, and to the counselor, NOT TO HER! Speaking to her is a recipe for D because you are only telling her that she needs to change to fit your expectations, and it isn't going to happen like that...<p>I also feel that something strange is happening here with her outside interests... <p>Sweden

starcastle,<p>I agree with everyone that says don't move out...your ability to impact your situation diminishes with distance...you can't do a great plan A if you don't see her.<p>I think you need to assume that your wife is having an emotional affair....it may not yet be physical....but she is falling in love with this other guy, and he is indeed fulfilling whatever her important needs are right now. This goes a long way toward explaining her comment that she was never in love with you. I don't believe that is true. What I do believe is that now that she is on this infatuated high with the new man, she is comparing that kind of courtship rush to the kind of love that the two of you have experienced after 11 years. Your image will suffer in comparison....not because there is anything wrong with you, but because right now she is seeing this other guy through rose colored glasses. <p>Read the plan A stuff and get started right away. I would make counseling....hopefully with the Harleys....a precondition for any kind of moving out scenario....before, not after. If she won't fill out the questionaire....wing it as best you can....and don't LB! <p>welcome....hope you get help here.

Hi starcastle1,<p>Critical Advice About Conversation:
This is a critical time for you guys. You are the stronger partner, so you&#8217;re going to have to do the most work and have most of the patience. The arguing and the love busters that go along with it (disrespectful judgements, demands, and anger) need to stop ASAP before any further damage is done. I know this is difficult, but for the sake of your marriage you&#8217;re going to control these situations, otherwise things will spin hopelessly downward. <p>I speak from experience. My wife and I argued from last July to December. I was going to straighten her out and make her see the light. I won most of our arguments, I thought, but actually lost ground each and every discussion. Just as the material on this web site predicted, things deteriorated week by week. I found this web site in December. I read the articles and implemented the recommendation&#8230;This finally stabilized things somewhat, but a lot of damage was already done.<p>The key thing to remember is you cannot control, manipulate, or talk your wife into loving you and doing the right thing. She must do this on her own free will. What you need to be is her best friend and the best option. She needs to see you in a new light. Be understanding, be calm, be loving, show affection where you can, be supportive, and be her best friend. Don&#8217;t take what she says right now personal, because she sounds like she in the fog right now, so things are not as the appear. You&#8217;re going to need a lot of patience, because you have a long hard road ahead, but it&#8217;s worth the effort.<p>Take Care and God Bless,
L&F

I believe that everyone here is right about not moving out but the only time that I am actually out of the house is every other weekend. She too will be out every other weekend. I also believe my wife when she tells me that there isn't anything going on with that other man at work. She had told me quite a bit that had happened some time mid summer last year but she never went through with anything and somehow chose me over this other man. Today she wants to know if she would still choose me over everyone else which is very important to her. She feels that she needs that in order to fall in love with me again. I am still confused and Tuesday will be the first day that I am actually out of the house in the evening. I know that if I do not move out this way that she will look for an apartment or house which will drain all our resources. This is how important this it is to her. Even if she went looking for a house, without my agreement, she cannot get any of our shared resources. Do I call her bluff or do I go along with her idea. It would seem that I should agree with her demands and not pressure her into anything right now. We have had a couple of reasonably good days as far as arguing but it hasn't stopped. This just seems like the right thing to do. She says that if she misses me then we can go to counseling. I know this sounds odd but do I have any other choice? Keep the replies coming and I appreciate them all.

SC1,
I think it is hard for us to say without knowing your situation much more...
Things in these situations can always go in many directions. That is the difficulty, trying to figure out what would be best for the relationship.
Think through each scenario, and what she might be thinking, then make a decision. You do have the advantage of being around a lot anyway becasue of the job situation. You must also understand that if you become that "new" better guy around the house, your W won't have the reason to want to partially separate.
I must say that this thread has given me some inspiration to stick around the house as long as possible. Otherwise, I feel it is just going to be fuel for my WW to solidify her poor behavior.<p>Sweden

Sweden
Nice to hear from you again. My wife has some very strong family values, this is why I believe that she is in a fog right now. I do not think that she would break apart our family considering we have two kids. For a few years I was distant from my wife and kids and didn't do as much as I should have with them. I was a big taker and a poor giver. I wasn't a bad Father or Husband but she had expected more from me. I had been into providing for the family as my number one concern but even when we were well off I looked for ways to improve that position even more. If she didn't do this now it was just going to get worse and worse. I do everything with the family now but that doesn't always include the wife. She has been doing things with the kids and I do things with the kids seperately. I am a much better father and husband now but she feels that because she had to tell me what the problems were that it doesn't mean anything anymore. She feels that I should have known what to do on my own. I totaly disagree with her on this because if we had better comunication with each other then she would have let me know the problems in a mature way. She claims that we always fought but I disagree with that and so does everyone else we know. We were the picture perfect marriage. The envy of everyone. We had small fights but that was it. Never anything major. Everyone we know would attest to that yet she claims things were different. One reason she gives is that when I met her she had only been away from a church cult for a year. They taught her that if you do not love someone then you talk yourself into it and make yourself love that person. So when she was kissing me, hugging me and telling me she loved me deep down inside she did not. She feels that she never had a passion for me except for the very first time we almost had sex. We were both virgins and after the first time we almost had sex we decided to have sex with each other shortly thereafter. From that point on we had sex just to have sex. No passion at all according to her. This other person at work was bringing her to a point of orgasm just by talking to her. She never felt that way with me so she feels that she never loved me. Even though she knew when we were engaged that she was giving up this feeling she felt that I had everything else. So when I stopped doing family things I lost her completely. Today she feels that this passion or wanting me is essential in a relationship. How important is this?

SC1,
Again, I must say welcome to the club!
We share sooo many similarities--two kids, Ws out of love, bad sex lives, periods with us not placing the necessary emphasis on the family, etc. <p>Now we need to fix things, or at least, fix ourselves! I guess the only real approach is a strong Plan A. Have you read the book "Passionate Marriage?" It can be a bit raw, but the advice is I feel very, very useful.<p>My WWs arguement is that it is better for us to be separated (or D'd) if she doesn't love me. It is a cultural thing here in Sweden where people have been changing partners as much as their underwear. She feels this way even though she also feels strongly for the family/kids. <p>It sounds as though you have corrected many of the faults of your past, but it seems you either haven't done it well enough, or haven't done it long enough... Keep at it!<p>I spoke with my W last night on the phone and I must say it went well--no LBers. But, it is work!<p>I was thinking this morning that maybe it is best for people like us to take up a hobby in our extra time that would assist in the process of making our Ws more curious/interested in us again. What could you do that would make her take notice? My W is interested in artsy-stuff. Maybe it is time for me to start making something; I could be into furniture design or something like that. Daydreaming about it also gets me a bit excited and takes my mind off my situation. A little confidence booster!<p>OK, I better get a bit done here...<p>Sweden

I have an idea... What if you guys do a POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) on a deadline. I mean, if you agree to avoid each other and all, there has to be a cut-off date. You can't do this indefinitely, right???? Where exactly will you spend every other weekend???? Do you have a comfortable place to go?

Elaborate a bit more...
You mean just moving out on a temporary basis?
Presently for me it could mean either relocating back to the U.S. or just to a new residence. The gamble is that my WW wouldn't eventually follow but stay here in Sweden with the kids [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>That's maybe a gamble I'm not ready to take.<p>Sweden

Hi starcastle1 & Sweden,<p>I&#8217;m sorry to say, I also belong to your club. If you haven&#8217;t read &#8220;Why Women Leave Men&#8221;, an article on this web site, read it. It accurately describes our situation. Let&#8217;s face it we fit the typical profile.<p>My wife separated from me about three weeks ago. She got her own apartment. She&#8217;s paying for it her self by cleaning houses. I don&#8217;t know how she&#8217;s doing it, but she&#8217;s smart and thrifty, and can do incredible things with a single dollar, so I&#8217;m sure she&#8217;s doing fine. However, I wonder how she&#8217;ll be doing is a couple of months&#8230;Time will tell?<p>This has not been easy on me. I have my boys, but overall the house is lonely and I miss her. She says she&#8217;s confused and needs space and time to figure things out? For the last four months I&#8217;ve done a good Plan A&#8230;I hope it was long enough?<p>I&#8217;m currently having problems obsessing about her. It&#8217;s gotten worse since the separation. I really have no reason to doubt her no contact agreement, but I do. I fear she may be contacting the OM, since I&#8217;m not a round to keep her honest? I&#8217;m also having trouble sleeping and concentrating and work. Today I&#8217;m going to the doctor and get some meds to help me keep going. I&#8217;ve got to do this, otherwise I know she won&#8217;t have to wait for the divorce, because I&#8217;ll do it to end this pain. Her indecision is just tearing me up on the inside. She has been on the fence for 9 months now. It seems like forever. Hopefully some medication will make things a little more tolerable for me&#8230;I want to numb out.<p>By the way, great idea Sweden&#8230;I was also thinking about a hobby and like you I was actually even thinking about making furniture. A creative distraction is a good idea and who know you may be right, the W may think it&#8217;s new and cool?<p>Take Care,
L&F

This is my 3rd time down this road. It may seem impossible at first, but hang in there; it does get somewhat easier...
Like my advice to many out there, Read and do some hanging out here on the MB site. There are many books that help one through the process. My problem has been the anger involved with her As and how it affects my mood around her.
I'm doing a good Plan A now, and I have seen some minor results even today conversing by e-mail with her. <p>Hang in there and don't give up!<p>Sweden

We are still planning on seperating this coming Weekend. I have no idea why I feel that she will miss me and want to try to work on the marriage but I have that feeling. It is just something that we need to go through. Right now we just can't be in the same house together because we argue. Neither one of us can help that and we both have tried. I have said that my wife hasn't been willing to try to work on the marriage but I think that I was expecting way too much too fast. We were going to ballroom dancing but I got upset and we argued about something meaningless and I said that I wouldn't go anymore. I did blame her for bringing up the issue but it really wasn't that big of a deal now that I can look back and analyze it. So basically I have crushed all my wife's attempts at remotely trying. The road back will be that much longer now. I almost convinced my wife today to do a counseling but not with a marriage counselor just to a counselor. I am not sure what the difference is but she feels that marriage counselors are there to keep marriages going wether good or bad. She wants someone to tell her that we have a good marriage or bad marriage.

SC1,
If you think that this plan may work, then go for it! You know your stituation best...
I haven't heard much about what you have done in regards to background learning, reading, etc. on relationships. Have you read the books offered here? Divorce Busting, by M. Weiner-Davis, Passionate Marriage, by D. Schlarch? If not, I feel it is critical that you read (no, memorize) these to help you know exactly how to manage the situation you are about to face.<p>These books will teach you how to be that new YOU that your W will desire, and of course how to not LB. This is the stuff that I feel will help you put things back together, for real. Just being apart part of the time won't do it; it is giving her a sweet, caring, sexy dude to long after while the two of you are apart is the key. I didn't go far enough the last two times. I thought if I could only get her back in the house, or somewhat committed to the M, that all would be peachy; it didn't work...So, don't go only half way!<p>Got to get the kids going for daycare.<p>Talk to you later!<p>
Sweden

I am not sure of who is keeping up with my situation but I figured that I should let everyone know where I stand. As I explained in an earlier post, me and the wife separated and we haven't seen each other since Thursday. I thought that it would be extremely difficult but it hasn't been. The only thing that I miss right now are my kids and not being able to see them everyday. I have talked to my wife several times during this period even though I had thought that we would have no contact. She initiated and called and I talked. We have had good coversations and we haven't argued at all. I feel more comfortable talking to her on the phone than face to face. I am so angry with her and what she has put me through that I know that it will take time to heal. This may be why that I do not miss her at all. I had wondered what she would be doing on nights that she is not home and figured that she would be going out and having fun. She told me today that her best friend suggested that while we are separated that she doesn't go out on purpose to give this separation a good chance. She thought it was a good idea and everyone that she discussed it with also felt that it was a good idea so she went with it. For some reason she wasn't going to tell me but she did. This is why I believe that we are such good friends that we tell each other everything. Some people had asked about this other man in her life and I just wanted to let everyone know that there really isn't anything there because there had been another situation years ago and there has also been another one more recently. The one most recently she actually felt that she could have a relationship with this person. This after meeting and spending only a few hours together. She is definitely in a thick fog and doesn't know what is right and wrong but she hasn't had an affair. Emotional yes but not physical. I can handle the emotional one but I would never accept a physical one under any circumstance. I believe that we will be together in the end but we are in for a long and tough road ahead. I wish that I had known about this site 6 months ago because I would have been able to understand the problem much better. Instead we argued and emptied the love bank on both sides. Anyway I will try to keep posting on any changes but I expect that we will be separated for a couple of months. I will continue to talk to her only when she calls and will continue to be her best friend. I know that every situation is different and I would not be preaching what I am doing to anyone else. I am a very strong individual and know that whatever happens I will survive easily. I love my wife to death and will do anything to try to improve the marriage but realize that if she stays in withdrawal that I will certainly follow.