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#3002559 01/22/18 11:46 AM
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I don't really know where to begin. Not sure if y'all remember me, but I first came her several years ago looking for 'help" for my marriage. My ex was extremely insecure and I was desperate.

Anyways, y'all all were very hard on me and convinced me that a separation was in order. I think I would have eventually left, but I likely would have ended up in the hospital or possibly worse before it happened.

So I wanted to say 2 things......first off, thank you for giving me the wake up call that I needed!! I can't thank y'all enough for being hard on me when I was "pretending that he was getting better". I filed for divorce over 2 years ago, unfortunately it is still not done, but that is another story.

The second thing I wanted to bring up is that I was in a very abusive situation. I don't just mean verbal abuse, or disrespect, I mean he practically had me locked in the house when I wasn't at work, and getting through the work day was hell in itself because he couldn't monitor my every move. It got to the point where he had slapped me, backhanded me, slammed my head on the counter, threw me down on to the floor by my hair, the list goes on. I bring this up for a reason....this marriage builders program is amazing and I believe in it 110%, if I ever re-marry, it will be a "marriage builders" marriage.

BUT if someone is in an abusive relationship, and reads the material and listens to the "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement" it can be detrimental. When I first came here I tried to abide by that but the problem is, I couldn't even take a shower with his enthusiastic agreement. Yes I was basically brainwashed after being in it so long, yes I totally understand Dr Harley would have not given the "enthusiastic agreement" advice to someone in an abusive marriage, and I also know that I did NOT tell y'all what was going on. I was far too afraid that one day he would find the forum and be furious, which is exactly what happened. So I only told y'all small bits and pieces. Hoping that I could still get the help I needed. The physical abuse actually became much worse once he realized I was on here.

Anyways, I am saying this just to be a voice for people who are in an abusive relationships, and to remind them that following the program has to be a 2-sided thing. If you even think that you are in an abusive relationship, then the only answer is separation. Then, you can determine if the other person can somehow get help.

I also wanted to raise some awareness about these types of situations, in case any of you recognize signs that there is "much more to the story" than the person is letting on to.

I can't tell y'all how grateful I am for all of you that helped me back then. I am so happy to be "out" and to have a normal life for the first time since I met him at 16.

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Quote:
BUT if someone is in an abusive relationship, and reads the material and listens to the "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement" it can be detrimental. When I first came here I tried to abide by that but the problem is, I couldn't even take a shower with his enthusiastic agreement. Yes I was basically brainwashed after being in it so long, yes I totally understand Dr Harley would have not given the "enthusiastic agreement" advice to someone in an abusive marriage, and I also know that I did NOT tell y'all what was going on.

I am saying this just to be a voice for people who are in an abusive relationships, and to remind them that following the program has to be a 2-sided thing.


Hi JBK, thanks for the update! Just so you know, *WE* are the voice for abused women. We have helped many, many women out of abusive relationships over the years. I have been on this forum every day for 17 years helping those women. You are the voice of a woman who wasn't helped here because you were not honest.

AS SUCH, we would never advise a woman in an abusive marriage to use the POJA. NEVER. We always advise separation.

The message of your story IS NOT that the POJA is "detrimental," but that not being HONEST is detrimental.

That is like going to the doctor for a heart attack and telling him you have a hangnail. Obviously, he cannot treat you for the real problem if you cover it up.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Here is the advice we give about the POJA:

Quote:
Dr Bill Harley: There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely. Your conclusions are correct.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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How excited I am for your future! Go you!

Thank you so much for the update. I hate it when abused women slink off because they feel they are being asked to do the impossible. It's always so worrying. There are successes, sure, but being caught by the abuser or giving up is common.

Your update gives me hope that a seed is planted and we help to shine a light on the gaslighting that may help at a key juncture.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Sorry if I came across wrong, I wasn't meaning that at all. I really just wanted to say thank you to all of you for helping me back then.

Yes, I was not honest out of fear of my safety. I was right, to be afraid of him finding this, he did and the abuse became much worse. All I was saying is that when you are in the situation, things are so unclear, he had been "gaslighting" me for 10 years by then. Nothing is clear at that point.

I guess I was just saying to keep an eye out for these women. And maybe talk about potential abuse here more often..... Just because an abused woman may not be able to talk freely doesn't mean that they aren't reading and listening. I know y'all have helped so many other people here, and we appreciate it.

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Do you think the gaslighting and "nothing being clear" is what's keeping people stuck or is it more that there is no opportunity to leave safely? Or both?

I find it really interesting (not to mention brave) that you took a risk with your thread. You took a risk to inform yourself while knowing probably that you were risking comfort and safety. Which makes me wonder if you were instinctively trying to shed the gaslighting before being even able to effectively consider your safety. Or not?

I think whatever you have to say on this, particularly your reminder that abused women can't afford to be frank is really useful.

Most people assume an abused woman is dying to get out and would speak of nothing else but I know when my friend was in an abusive situation, she just wanted to solve the puzzle of why bad days happened unexpectedly! She was very uninterested in sharing details of abuse and only wanted help in understanding what SHE was doing wrong.

Which is what she was gaslit to believe.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl


Most people assume an abused woman is dying to get out and would speak of nothing else but I know when my friend was in an abusive situation, she just wanted to solve the puzzle of why bad days happened unexpectedly! She was very uninterested in sharing details of abuse and only wanted help in understanding what SHE was doing wrong.


I don't assume that abused women want to get out at all. That is RARELY the case. I have said for years that the hardest thing on this forum is to persuade an abused wife to leave her husband. There are cases where it took us YEARS to persuade her to leave.

Almost every single one that I can think thought she could control the abuse if she just acted a little better.

However, most are honest about the situation and don't bring their husbands to the forum. We can't do anything when a poster is not forthright about the abuse.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I was talking about the common conception, not the MB one. The MB one being: "Women tend to leave their husbands not when they've been abused, but rather, when they've been neglected."

I think you used the word abuse extremely early on this particular thread (the last one). I have to admit, I don't know what it is you saw, it was quite uncanny. The situation didn't appear abusive for quite a few pages to my eyes.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
I was talking about the common conception, not the MB one. The MB one being: "Women tend to leave their husbands not when they've been abused, but rather, when they've been neglected."


So agree!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: JBKT16


I guess I was just saying to keep an eye out for these women. And maybe talk about potential abuse here more often..... Just because an abused woman may not be able to talk freely doesn't mean that they aren't reading and listening.


And that is the purpose of the many articles and the free radio show. If someone can't post here, they can take it upon themselves to read the material provided. There are a multitude of good articles about what to do in an abusive situation.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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One of the things I love most about MB is it doesn't differentiate between types of harm; if it hurts you and it isn't stopping, regardless of it being abuse or neglect, you get out. It's impossible to be any clearer about the course of action and yet abused women stay. It would be hopeful to believe they are just biding their time 'reading and listening' as JBK says.

I remember the power of gaslighting, I can't imagine adding fear to that cocktail and still being able to function.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: JBKT16
BUT if someone is in an abusive relationship, and reads the material and listens to the "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement" it can be detrimental. When I first came here I tried to abide by that but the problem is, I couldn't even take a shower with his enthusiastic agreement.


I really don't feel this is a fair representation of the information presented on this forum - right in the POJA article it states that it is not appropriate for any type of abuse situation and there are numerous domestic violence, angry outbursts and abusive Q&A columns - none of which recommend a focus on POJA as a solution to the problem of abuse.

Also I skimmed through your first thread - nobody told you to do POJA. Within a short time after arriving, you were the one who asked about following POJA:

Originally Posted By:
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
So we shouldn't implement the POJA yet? I think some of our biggest love busters are independent behaviors (which also lead to the angry outburst,etc.), on both sides, so I guess I assumed that the POJA could help us start avoiding love busters.


Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
NO, don't try to use the POJA until you have eliminated love busters. The POJA will go much smoother when you a) you have eliminated love busters and b) you are in love.


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2853221&page=6


Ddays 2007 and 2011
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How to Plan B Correctly
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Originally Posted By: JBKT16
BUT if someone is in an abusive relationship, and reads the material and listens to the "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement" it can be detrimental. When I first came here I tried to abide by that but the problem is, I couldn't even take a shower with his enthusiastic agreement.


When someone actually reads the material they know they know that a) POJA is not recommended in abusive situations and b) separation is always recommended in abusive situations.

However, we can't force someone to read the material against their will. Nor can we read minds.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: JBKT16
BUT if someone is in an abusive relationship, and reads the material and listens to the "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement" it can be detrimental. When I first came here I tried to abide by that


A huge problem we face here is that people come and do what they expected us to advise them instead of what we actually advised them.

I am really glad that you heard the advice to separate. So many women in your situation do not listen - it's just amazingly common for them to think that there is some tool here they can use to stop their husbands abusing them. We warn and warn and warn and there are disclaimers all over the place explaining it and Dr. Harley mentions these things on the radio show all the time, and yet still I run into people who have been here for years letting the parts that they don't want to hear go in one ear and out the other.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: JBKT16
Anyways, I am saying this just to be a voice for people who are in an abusive relationships, and to remind them that following the program has to be a 2-sided thing. If you even think that you are in an abusive relationship, then the only answer is separation.


That IS following the program. That is what the Marriage Builders program advises for a wife who is being abused or who is being neglected.

Time and time again I have spoken to women here who have said "We can't follow the program; my husband won't do it," and I have asked them "Are you going to follow what the program recommends for a wife in your situation? Why do you expect things to get better if you keep choosing to not follow what the program advises (separation)?"


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I apologize if my original post was worded poorly. I understand that Dr Harley, as well as all of you here would never advise the agreement under my situation. All I was attempting to do was share my story and say thank you to you all.

I don't know if any of you have ever been in the type of situation I was in, but if you have not, then there really are no words that will be able to express what it is like. I was here desperately seeking help to "save" the marriage because I did not think leaving would ever be an option. Early on I actually believed maybe he could "get better" but eventually I knew he wouldn't and that leaving was the answer.

Oh and I did not lead him to this forum, that's the last thing I wanted. I knew all hell would break lose if he ever found the forum, that's why I tried to say the least offensive things to him but at the same time I was desperate for help. I asked him to read the book "his needs / her needs" but I never said anything about the website, the forum, etc. He never even read any of the books or material on the site, actually I don't really even remember how he found out I was on here.

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Yes I know that this is the program. I don't doubt anything about the program. It's amazing..... I doubt that the women in these situations can think straight, I doubt that they have the ability, the information, support, help they need to actually leave the situation safely. First they have to want to leave, second they have to feel like they can leave without physically being harmed.

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Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
BUT if someone is in an abusive relationship, and reads the material and listens to the "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement" it can be detrimental. When I first came here I tried to abide by that


A huge problem we face here is that people come and do what they expected us to advise them instead of what we actually advised them.

I am really glad that you heard the advice to separate. So many women in your situation do not listen - it's just amazingly common for them to think that there is some tool here they can use to stop their husbands abusing them. We warn and warn and warn and there are disclaimers all over the place explaining it and Dr. Harley mentions these things on the radio show all the time, and yet still I run into people who have been here for years letting the parts that they don't want to hear go in one ear and out the other.


It's because they (including myself at one point) want to believe that there is something we can do to make it be a healthy or even mediocre marriage. When you read the program and it sounds so amazing, sounds like an answer to your prayers and you want to follow it.... You want to think that there is something on your end that can help it, because deep down you know that they will never do anything on their part. Or if they feel like I did I truly thought it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to get out. I did.... and I owe that to y'all and Dr Harley.

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: JBKT16
BUT if someone is in an abusive relationship, and reads the material and listens to the "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement" it can be detrimental. When I first came here I tried to abide by that but the problem is, I couldn't even take a shower with his enthusiastic agreement.


When someone actually reads the material they know they know that a) POJA is not recommended in abusive situations and b) separation is always recommended in abusive situations.

However, we can't force someone to read the material against their will. Nor can we read minds.


I did read the material....I read every single thing Dr Harley had out at the time. The articles, tons of threads here, his needs/her needs, etc. Yes I understand separation what was recommended. What some people don't understand is that I did NOT think it was possible for me to leave. For a few reasons...

1.) I thought there was a chance he could kill me if I tried to leave. He watched my EVERY single move. I couldn't even talk to my mom on the phone without him asking about every single word and what it meant. The only reason I was able to talk to y'all on here is because I did it off of my school computer at work.
2.) I did not trust him to be alone with the kids and I knew if I left they would be court ordered to be with him alone. He never ever was with them alone when we were under the same roof, so I somehow believed I could protect them better that way.
3.) He blackmailed me about some stuff with family members. Told me several times that he would completely f#ck up my entire family if I even thought about leaving.

I basically thought I was sacrificing myself in order to protect my children and my family (mom dad and sister's family). It wasn't until my son started seeing stuff happening that I realized I was no longer just sacrificing myself......

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Originally Posted By: JBKT16
[
I did read the material....I read every single thing Dr Harley had out at the time. The articles, tons of threads here, his needs/her needs, etc. Yes I understand separation what was recommended. What some people don't understand is that I did NOT think it was possible for me to leave. For a few reasons...


Thank goodness you took the Marriage Builders advice to separate! Better late than never. Good for you. smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101



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