Hi,
My husband gave me my violin 14 years ago when I mentioned I wanted to learn Irish Fiddle. I now play twice a month with a group of people at a local venue. My husband doesn't go, he doesn't particularly like the music although he likes listening when I play at home. It is also late for him since he leaves so early for work.
So, in this program I am to give up playing with the group since my husband doesn't choose to come?

If I give up playing with the group I might as well give up playing fiddle entirely since it is a major joy to play music with people. This is something that he would say he doesn't want me to give up since it gives me much joy.


So, what then? Is it something we can agree on and yet still only one is really getting enjoyment from the activity? This doesn't make sense to me. He has supported me for many years even though he misses time with me when I am gone in the evening for the session.


If he wanted to attend a sporting event ( and he has in the past ) with someone like his brother, is he not to go just because I don't want to go? And yet it would be a great joy to him to be able to do this and I would be happy that he is getting enjoyment out of it.


I guess I am struggling since I just discovered this program. It sounds like what I have been searching for to help our marriage after a 3 year battle with overcoming dishonesty on his part.

It�s prioritizing first things first. If you are getting your UA time in then it�s not an issue. But if you�re gone most evenings, then you�re not going to feel intimate those nights with him, and you two may not enjoy a life where the only possibility for intimacy is on weekends part of the year. You may enjoy your marriage much better when you make time for it during the week too. Maybe you can try dates in the morning or something.

Did you read the part that it is twice a month that I play music outside the house? That is not most nights.

Hi Knitter, welcome to Marriage Builders. Where would you say you get the greatest joy in your life?

Welcome to MB.

It seems as though your reading of MB has led you to the impression that you and your husband should not engage in recreational activities unless both of you are doing the activity. Dr Harley does not actually forbid activities done without the spouse and with other people (unless you can show me where he says this), but he is very careful about this. Essentially, he recommends doing things for the marriage that build love bank units, and avoiding activities that withdraw love bank units, and also, avoiding those that allow units to be built with people of the opposite sex, with whom it is easy to fall in love.

He recommends that, since recreational activities (by definition, activities that give us enjoyment) done with another person can make love bank deposits, couples should make RC activities the core of their marriage; for example, in this article: Why Should a Couple Plan to Be with Each Other When They Are the Happiest?. He recommends that RC should be combined with meeting the needs for intimate conversation, sexual fulfilment and affection, for a minimum of 15 hours per week, the majority of that time spent out of the house on dates (not the SF part, unless you're very creative!). A good way of achieving this figure is to go on four, three-hour dates per week, out of the home, with the SF component being fulfilled at home, in most cases..

If there are no major problems in the marriage, that figure of 15 hours will build enough love bank units to make the couple fall in love and stay in (romantic) love. If there are major problems, these need to be addressed while that figure is increased.

If the couple is meeting that figure, AND here are no major problems, AND the couple is in love, it is fine for them to engage in RC separately, and with other people.

The big HOWEVER, though, is that they must not do anything with that separate RC time that is a threat to the marriage. One such threat would be to spend that time with members of the opposite sex, and another would be to spend that time doing something so enjoyable that it creates a contrast effect, making time with the spouse seem less enjoyable. A third threat would be to make the spouse not doing the activity feel unhappy that they are excluded.

Dr Harley writes about all those problems in the article I linked.

"There are some couples, Charlene, like you and your husband, who try to compromise regarding recreational activities. They spend some of their recreational time with each other. But they spend their very favorite recreational time apart. Your husband's participation in fantasy baseball draft is a good example.

My problem with his plan is that it not only squanders the opportunity to deposit the most love units in the shortest amount of time, but it also tends to make the time he does have with you much less enjoyable than it would have been.

Contrast has more of an effect on us than most people think. We can thoroughly enjoy a particular activity until something more enjoyable comes along, and when that happens we're suddenly bored with the prior activity. So when your husband has a terrific time without you, the time he spends with you will pale in comparison. It will not deposit the love units that it should, and his feelings for you will tend to suffer. On the other hand, if you choose to spend all of your recreational time together, particularly the time you look forward to the most, you will maximize the love units you deposit."

Also: "I'm a firm believer that once you're married, everything you do, whether it's with each other or not, should follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). The reason I am so adamant in my support of this rule is that even when you are not together, the things you do are likely to effect each other, depositing or withdrawing love units.

For example, your husband's exclusion of you in fantasy baseball draft hurts your feelings. The entire time he's gone he will be losing love units from his account in your love bank. And then, when he returns home, the contrast effect I mentioned earlier will negatively effect his feelings about what you both do together, which will tend to withdraw love units from your account in his love bank. If you and he were to be together for the draft, or find an alternative recreational activity that you could enthusiastically agree to enjoy together, none of these love bank losses would result. Instead, you would both be depositing love units.

The Policy of Joint Agreement would have prevented you from getting into this mess in the first place. But now that you're there, it can help get you out. By simply following the rule now, your husband should not attend this yearly draft unless he has your enthusiastic agreement. Either he gives up the event entirely, or he includes you in it. If this group of men do not invite their wives, perhaps there would be another group where wives are invited."

It seems that those are the factors that you should be looking at to solve the problems yourselves. First, does your attendance at the violin group have the enthusiastic agreement of both of you (POJA)? You say that he does not want you to give it up, but you also say that he misses the time alone with you when you're gone. I think you need a conversation that clarifies whether he is enthusiastic about this activity, or whether would be happier if you stopped it and did something with him, since he doesn't want to accompany you. Twice a month does not sound like a lot of time being taken out of your time together, but if it bothers him, it's withdrawing love bank units, and therefore it needs to be changed.

Second, is the activity mixed sex? if so, this is dangerous, and you should protect your marriage from risk.

Third, is it creating a contrast effect for you? Do you look forward to this time more than to time spent with your husband? What does your joint RC time consist of, and how does it make you feel?

You mentioned your 3-year battle to overcome your husband's habitual dishonesty. You haven't told us what this is, but it posed a threat to your marriage while it continued, and it is a hard habit to break. Are you confident that he is honest with you now? Could any of the dishonesty reappear while you're away with your violin group - for example, the use of pornography?

In short; it's not as simple as saying you should not do RC activities with other people, but doing so could be a threat to your marriage, so you must both assess the situation carefully, and do what boosts and protects the marriage.

Somehow on first reading I thought you were doing this twice a week and it was like the first thing you scheduled into the calendar. Weird.

Twice a month is far more manageable. I think the bit that gives me pause is how amazingly joyful you describe it as being; that's fine (actually it's lovely) but does it overshadow your marriage?

You sound super awesome to each other though so perhaps not!


Sugarcane has summed this up really well. When you have a passion for something sharing that passion can give a false sense of intimacy. I'm not sure that this applies to group settings though. I'm thinking of a member whose affair started in a choir, but that was a result of a really poor decision to practice one on one with someone.

Dr Harley's and Dr Chalmers's primary case study in Surviving an Affair, the affair between Sue and Greg, began as a result of her involvement on the Lake Restoration Committee.

P. 14:

"The committee met monthly and Sue enjoyed being part of a group that was doing such important work. She became friends with several of the committee members and developed a particularly good friendship with Greg....They usually sat together and he was always very friendly and cheerful. He listened attentively to her ideas, rarely interrupted her and discussed issues with her in a respectful and supportive way...[after they began meeting outside the group]...She told herself she had a right to a friendship with a man, and that she could handle it."

An opposite-sex friendship that begins in a group setting can easily develop into an affair. At some point, as the friendship grows warm, the decision is taken to hold intimate conversations outside the group, and the affair is under way - but its embryonic stage developed inside the group. According to Dr Harley's textbook, the warning against RC without your spouse certainly does apply to the group setting.

I wouldn't describe it as a "false sense of intimacy", either. If someone is capable of meeting your needs, the intimacy that develops is very real. It's all about love bank units.

YEP!

I was really curious on this point so thank you so much for digging out this reference!

One point where my marriage started to turn around was when my wife saw I really was serious about not doing anything that bothered her - she told me it bothered her for me to go out to eat lunch at work when she could not go out to eat lunch at home with our then small children, and I stopped going. That really impressed her and made her feel cared for.

One point Dr. Harley often makes is that he advises couples not have any outside recreational activities until they are each other's favorite recreational companion. Are you and your husband each other's favorite recreational companions? Or is being together boring or a chore? Today when my wife does something with her sisters, she has fun, but she still misses me. It wasn't always like that!


Tell us more about his dishonesty.

I rarely post on this site, however I thought I would chime in because my husband plays the violin and piano. He's not part of a group, but he does take lessons 1x per week and practices every day. I also play an instrument and our children play piano & violin. It may be different in our household because I like that he plays and fully support it, but we do schedule practice time so it doesn't eat into UA time.

Not sure if the issue is a.) he doesn't like you playing in a group or b.) your playing sacrifices UA time, but I do think with some brainstorming you can work around both of those things. For us, the weekly lessons with practice time scheduled outside of UA time has worked really well.

Thanks W-L-L, I think you understand well the desire to play an instrument.

We have been married 35 years today. I won't get into the dishonesty because frankly it is not anyone's business.

My husband wants me to continue playing fiddle and supports my decision to play at a session. I have been entirely open about what happens at the sessions and he attends once in a great while. He misses me while I am gone and yet it builds our relationship. We spend long weekends camping together and golf together and generally spend evenings together other than when he has meetings in the evening (he has a local political position and volunteers on church boards). So he is actually out just as often as I am for his obligations.



Thanks for the input from everyone.

If you're already both happy with how this works for you, what help were you seeking? Why did you perceive there to be a problem? What made you write in?

And the rest of us don't? Are you saying that because you didn't like anyone else's advice? Are you criticising other advice by praising that one person?

That's a very ungracious response to people who gave up their time to help you. You used the term "struggling" and you talked of a 3-year battle. You mentioned the dishonesty - nobody dragged it out of you. It's rude then to say that "frankly" it's not anyone's business.

Then why bring it up? I guess I don't understand the point of this thread at all. If you are happy with the current situation what is the point of this thread?

I suspect that the original poster might be confused by some of the Marriage Builder principles? Perhaps she thinks there's a conflict between the policy of joint agreement, the policy of undivided attention, and the recommendation that her spouse should be her favorite recreational companion?

Knitterww - as others have mentioned, if you and your spouse are both in enthusiastic agreement about this, it shouldn't be a problem. If he is somewhat resentful of the time spent away from you, could it be from not getting the recommended amount of 15 weekly hours of undivided attention?

We're here to help. That seemed to be an issue that nobody asked about, so I asked about it. It's probably significant.

So why not thank us for clarifying those principles? Why the snotty tone in her response?

Yes, but this was painstakingly pointed out to her by Sugarcane and others. If that were the issue should could have just thanked them, but she didn't.. She responded that her marriage is doing just fine. Confused....