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Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Is either of you sacrificing to make the other happy?


Most of the time, I dont think we feel like we are "sacrificing for each other," but obviously, I do feel some negative emotions about being in the position I am in because of FWH. Does that mean what I am doing now is a "sacrifice?" I dont think so, I'm doing the things I'm doing now because I feel it is the best option for us, and I believe FWH feels the same.

For example, with my sister. I'm not particularly "enthusiastic" about the available options (1. Not see her at all, 2. See her with FWH, 3. See her without FWH), but of those available to us, I think we both have landed on #2 because with time, our hope is that with some interaction and her seeing us happy together, the relationship will improve. I could view the anxiety and stress that comes with these interactions as a "sacrifice" CAUSED BY FWH, but not something I am doing FOR HIM.


BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by amac
I should add that FWH said on our way home yesterday that he was "really happy" that my sister talked to him. I am the one feeling negatively because I am the one who gets the backlash from her, not him. I have not shared that with him because I want him to continue to feel hopeful and positive, but thats why I asked the question about if this is right or not.


Ok, so he's up for it. However is there enthusiastic agreement from your side to be around your sister the way things are? Don't ignore your half of the PoJA. If you want something from your husband use a 'how would you feel about..' request rather than going in on the negative slant.

As far as handling her goes, I wouldn't rush her. She sees less of the recovery work than you do, has less power over it and loves you. She is scared but she will catch up. Forcing the issue won't help.

It can only help if you don't get ruffled and hung up on it. Let her catch your calmness and sense of reassurance. And at the end of the day, who cares if she approves of your marriage? I have to agree with Melody Lane that great marriages have an inner focus. Let her see you don't need her approval; that's how secure you are. It's ironic that we can reassure others best when we stop caring about what they think; but it's how it works.


Thanks Indie, I agree. I think I should not have sent that text to my sister asking her to say hi to him. I did it because I knew it would make FWH, which it did, but it was not worth the backlash to me. I think for them as us, the more we try to get on with normal life and not dwell on these issues, the better. If I hadn't sent the text, the day would have been fine. Lesson learned.


BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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Originally Posted by amac


Thanks Indie, I agree. I think I should not have sent that text to my sister asking her to say hi to him. I did it because I knew it would make FWH, which it did, but it was not worth the backlash to me. I think for them as us, the more we try to get on with normal life and not dwell on these issues, the better. If I hadn't sent the text, the day would have been fine. Lesson learned.


I don't think you were miles off target. If she is not even saying hello, it's worth calling that out. It's a dumb tactic, born of fear, on her part and it is not likely to get her anything other than longer gaps between visits.

I suppose I would just tweak it from 'Please do x and swallow your fears prematurely so I can come over and impress you' to ' We have a fun day planned just us and honestly i didnt enjoy the vibe last time. If you're feeling more relaxed about my decision and able to be nice to DH, we can try it again on xday?'

Like Melody Lane said: to see you she needs to respect your husband. That is her (very simple!) decision, not you looking at bad option, worse option and worst. Yes she's going to struggle, so let her do that while you do something that is elsewhere. She will learn that she can't throw mud at him without getting some on you.

Use *I feel* and *I wont* language at her: leave your husband out of it and don't let her off by allowing her to talk about him, not you.

"Its too awkward for me, so no thanks"
"It actually makes me really angry so I think I need more reassurance than that"
"I have this golden rule about people not disrespecting my husband in front of me"
"If you need more time to fully support me, take the time. Rushing things will just lead to more not-fun days"

Or something which makes it her problem and decision.

Sympathy blanket: yes it does suck that things are different post affair. You're tired and you just want everyone to behave!


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I need advice on how to deal with the police investigation and OW. As I posted before, FWH gave a statement to the police regarding the photograph that was sent to his employer. Over the last couple months the detective has basically been playing phone tag with OW to get her statement and today she finally did. Of course she denied it, said FWH was involved with other women, that I was controlling (dont know how that relevant, ha), and most concerning, alleged that my husband went to her house and threatened to kill her and her husband, and take away her children. The other stuff I expected but making such an extreme, false allegation scares me because it shows she really has no end to what she will do and the lies she will tell. The detective said, based on her statement there really is no case, however, my husband believes he can use a program to get all his text messages that have been deleted off of his phone to prove that photo was sent to OW. That could help the case, but in my opinion, not enough to make it prosecutable. However, the detective could follow up with OW to call her out on her lies, which I think would be a good thing.

I have alot of reservations having FWH go through all those likely thousands of deleted texts and photos. It makes me sick to think about. I feel that it is not worth the disruption to our lives to continue with this, but at the same time I am afraid she feels empowered now if she is able to get away with this. It also complicates matters in that my office would be the one prosecuting the case because the letter was sent to my husbands employer in this county. That means, all the dirty details (including the photo of my husband) will be center stage for 100s of people I works with. Even if the case does not get filed, just it coming to my office for review would require me to have a conversations with the higher ups in my office about it as there may be potential conflicts with us taking the case. People close to me at work know everything that has happened but I really do not want to have this conversation with people who dont really know me. It would be worth doing that if I believed we had a good case and she would get punished, but I think that is very unlikely. It would likely be just another things she gets away with.

Aside from all this, we are doing great. I really just want to put this all away and never think about it again. So, is it worth opening up all those pictures and texts to prove OW a liar? Or best to leave it and hope that at least the threat of police will deter her from anything else? She reassured the detective she is moving on blah blah, but her I dont trust that, as her actions over the last few months show otherwise (the last of anything being the sent photo, nothing else since then at least).

Last edited by amac; 10/17/18 01:47 PM.

BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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You should drop it and move on. Get on with your life..


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Yeah I would worry about him going through all that stuff too. If you do decide to do it, have someone else do that particular admin task.

Originally Posted by amac
That could help the case, but in my opinion, not enough to make it prosecutable.
.


Then it's really not worth it. It would just be drama and she's prepared to be called out for no worse punishment than drama. Drama is her food.

The best way to disentangle stalkers is to give them one firm message and then radio silence. One idea might be a lawyer to lawyer kind of message where you graciously agree to not pursue anything in return for an agreed end to all future attempts at contact or harassment. Just stress the desire is for her to go away and then silence.

But honestly just dropping everything is unlikely to rebound on you. She thought this stunt would shock his employers...and it didn't. Doesn't leave much room for her to go.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I agree with Melody and indie. If you want to recover your M completely without this drama constantly triggering both of you, cut it out of your life!


BH (me) 50, WxW 47
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Thanks abrrba, Indiegirl, and MelodyLane. H agrees and we are not going to pursue the police investigation anymore. Case closed...and everything else that came with it smile

Last edited by amac; 10/24/18 08:07 PM.

BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

Joined: Jun 2017
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It's pretty hard to be back here typing, but as you can tell from my signature and if you heard the radio show a few weeks ago you could have guessed it was me. My husband resumed his affair with OW at the end of last year. I found out on valentines day, OW's husband sent me an email telling me they were cheating again, he had found an email account the week before and convinced her to end it. I immediately called H, he admitted it, I told him to move out which he did. At that time I told him there was no chance and we would divorce. He that day told our church leader who covered rent for him in a room in a church members house 5 mins from us. I called his mom that day and told her, while he simultaneously called his dad and told him. He also told his employer that day, who are also members of our church. He then changed his phone number and email accounts. None of this at my prompting, I would not communicate with him at that time and was set on divorce. A few days after Dday I emailed the radio show and talked with Dr. Harley and H has talked to him as well. Dr. Harley said he found my H very "open and honest" which was surprising, his assessment was that H is a weak person who is very susceptible to affairs, however, I should try to save the marriage because it is better then alternative. Lucky me! I get to choose between crap or crappier. He advised I should talk H, slowly get out of plan B and start seeing him and work towards the goal of us working together. I replied that I am not willing to give up my job to save the marriage. I am a prosecutor and work for the government in criminal law, H does family law. For us to work together I would have totally change what I do. I am not willing to do that. I emailed this back to Dr. Harley a few weeks ago and haven't heard back.

Of course you all were right that my not having access to D's work computer would be my downfall. I stupidly let him keep open his Linkden account because I thought there was no way he would use a professional platform for sex chatting, etc and also rationally assumed that H wouldn't want anything to do with OW after she sent nude photos of him to his prior bosses and we had to get the police involved!! But I was wrong on both fronts, when he started a new job in the fall he claims he was afraid she might do something to sabotage it, so he looked at her Linkden profile and she could see he looked at it and so she changed her picture to something that would "trigger" him along with how to contact her. He set up a fake email account and contacted her and the affair resumed pretty much immediately like before where he would meet her during the day at work.

H uses a laptop at work that he agreed to give me access to it. I have put a keylogger on there and the program gives me video screenshots of everything he does, which I have found very reassuring. His employer is surprisingly ok with it because he wants our marriage to be saved. I put a GPS on his car but he found it, he said he would keep it on there but I thought that defeated the purpose so I took it off. I will put it back on when he doesnt know, but its difficult right now because we are still separated. I do have parental controls on his phone that give me location, websites visited, and allows me to block websites, phone numbers, etc.

Also, OWH, filed a restraining order against H. I went to court with him because I wanted to make sure I was getting all the info so traumatically had to be face to face with the horsed face other woman and OWH. I thought I would puke if I saw her, but actual feel better having looked the demon in the eye. We did not communicate with them, we talked through their lawyer. A temporary order was granted at that time for OWH and his kids, OW of course didnt want to be on it! Since that time their attorney has communicated that she does want to be on the RO now, but they want me on it also. I am not willing to have my name on anything because of my job. They are still in the process of negotiating the terms. As traumatic as dealing with RO has been, it is at least one more EP for me. I believe there has been no contact with OW.

I have been talking to H daily, he often comes over when the kids are down for bed. We talk or cuddle together but only show affection, nothing more and then he goes back to his rented room. I believe he is trying. He is medicated and going to SAA meetings (unfortunately only virtual now with the lock down). The lockdown also makes it harder because he has no where to take the kids now on his time so I let him be in the house with them yesterday. I stayed out as much as I could and kept separate from them, but it was very hard. I agreed to let him cook dinner for us and we ate with our kids, just like before. It was excruciating. I do not understand how someone could give up this life after being triggered by a picture?!

That's the basics in a nutshell. My biggest issue right now is I cannot understand how he could do this. When the affair happened the first time, I could understand why because of MB I could see how our relationship was lacking in EN so I had a plan when we got back together to improve that; and it worked! Now I know it wasn't a lack of EN that caused this. I'm afraid WH has a very unhealthy EN that I dont know if he can ever be broken of, and I'm not even exactly sure what it is.

You guys helped me so much before, I dont even know what to ask for at this point but I'm grateful to any advice you have.


BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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Just a quick note to say that you have my sympathy. I have been through repeated D Days and they broke me. I'm not the same person I was before I went through years of what you're going through now.

I need to read your (incredibly long!) thread before I can offer any help. Hang in there.


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Hi amac! Wow, I am so sorry this has happened all over again! Did Dr Harley talk to you yet about moving? While he can obviously be triggered again online, if she is in close proximity, this will happen again eventually.

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. He must certainly not work with his former lover and should probably live in some other city or state. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks for your reply Melody. Dr. Harley did not say we had to move, we live at one end of our county and she lives at the other. He said that was ok, but the job right now is in the middle, so he would probably need to get a job closer to our end of the county. The problem is, I dont think there is any other law firm job besides were he is at now where I will be able to have access to his computer and that is crucial for me. That's why I havent made it a deal breaker at this point.

In our scenario, I am the one who would have to sacrifice; I have the good job & friends here. H has basically nothing to tie him. He has no friends, and his job is hanging by a thread as it is. Do I think he would move if I demanded it? Ya I think he would. But I wont do it. I am not giving up my life for someone who can likely never be trusted.


BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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Those passages are helpful though. Is it really just the addictive nature of affairs that made him capable of going back? It is so hard for me to wrap my mind around that someone could go through all the hurt & pain that we did, have an OW as destructive and vengeful as she is, but still be able come out with such a good life, and then go back. It makes me think that there has to be something mentally wrong with H. Dr. Harley even showed concern, thought there was a possibility that there was some sadio-masachism going on with H's desire to go back to this OW.


BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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Originally Posted by amac
Those passages are helpful though. Is it really just the addictive nature of affairs that made him capable of going back? It is so hard for me to wrap my mind around that someone could go through all the hurt & pain that we did, have an OW as destructive and vengeful as she is, but still be able come out with such a good life, and then go back. It makes me think that there has to be something mentally wrong with H. Dr. Harley even showed concern, thought there was a possibility that there was some sadio-masachism going on with H's desire to go back to this OW.


He went back because of a) addiction and b) opportunity. There is nothing mentally wrong with him. The only thing wrong is that you didn't move. This is what happens in marriages where they don't move.

Your H is essentially the alcoholic who goes in the bar every day. Eventually, temptation collides with opportunity. You have learned the hard way what happens when someone does not heed Dr. Harley's advice to move.

Quote
The problem is, I don't think there is any other law firm job besides were he is at now where I will be able to have access to his computer and that is crucial for me.


This will not protect your marriage from another affair. You can look on his computer all day long but it won't stop him from reaching out to the OW and seeing her again. Nor will it ever stop him from running across her and being triggered again. If you lived 600 miles away, he wouldn't be able to see her unless he took a trip and wouldn't run across her accidentally.

Quote
In our scenario, I am the one who would have to sacrifice; I have the good job & friends here.


You have been the ONLY ONE who has sacrificed in this marriage. Having to endure TWO affairs is definitely a huge sacrifice. So I am astonished that you would volunteer for a THIRD ROUND of this. And you won't have an excuse the next time. You KNOW what the result is of not moving. I am sure we told you this before and you didn't heed the advice.

I would strongly encourage you to rethink your strategy. You have been through SO VERY MUCH and it doesn't have to be like that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Dr. Harley did not tell me to move. He told me that H needs to change his job closer to home and further from OW.


Last edited by amac; 03/23/20 05:41 PM.

BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

Joined: Jun 2017
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If I'm not willing to move or quit my job, then what? Just divorce now?

My kids are very young, the reality is, I do not think I am strong enough to be in a complete Plan B for the next 15 YEARS when he is not having an active affair. He will persist and I will be persuaded by him again. It feels inevitable.

Last edited by amac; 03/23/20 05:53 PM.

BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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Originally Posted by amac
Dr. Harley did not tell me to move. He told me that H needs to change his job closer to home and further from OW.



Dr Harley is ADAMANT about moving away. Read his words again:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by amac
Dr. Harley did not say we had to move, we live at one end of our county and she lives at the other.


How far away do you live from her?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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About an hour, 40 miles.

H used to work even further in the opposite direction. He claims the move to the new job closer to where she lives was the trigger.

I agree with you, I can't chance a chance encounter, but I think the computer is the greater threat. In either affair they hardly ever communicated by phone. The emailing is their thing. If it were to start again thats the most likely mechanism. If I had been monitoring his work computer I would have seen the emails and could have stopped it (you told me this exact thing in prior posts).


Last edited by amac; 03/23/20 08:43 PM.

BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 419
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Just a quick note to say that you have my sympathy. I have been through repeated D Days and they broke me. I'm not the same person I was before I went through years of what you're going through now.

I need to read your (incredibly long!) thread before I can offer any help. Hang in there.


Thanks SugarCane. Sorry for the long post, I probably should have started posting earlier so I wouldnt have so much to say in one, but it was a hard post to write.


BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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