My sweetheart & I are on a seriously good path towards getting married. We are both aware of and have followed the MB principles in putting this relationship together. I have a question for the group wisdom & input around finding the balance between following the policy of radical honesty versus dredging up past pain.

So if both parties agree that they've disclosed enough to get a reasonably accurate picture of each others' pasts, but neither one wants to continue to revisit and dredge up all the intimate details that can be really painful, is that an acceptable implementation of the radical honesty policy when it comes to the history of the couple?

In effect, combining the radical honesty with the enthusiastic agreement - we've moved into a place that we don't want to revisit past relationships any more, and rather turn to invest in the present and our future.

Again, we've covered a lot of details from our pasts, we have disclosed former relationships - but not every little single detail, particularly around intimacy and sex lives, so this is in our minds about limiting the pain from the past to not come in and take over and cloud our lovely present and future. We are NOT willing to live in the past, nor give it more power over our lives going forward.

What is your position on this question? Put another way, does the combined enthusiastic joint agreement fulfill the radical honesty requirement?

The POJA should not be used to violate the policy of radical honesty, however, it sounds like you have already discussed past relationships in full. That�s all that is necessary.

Welcome back, High Flight. It's good to hear that you are considering marriage, and that you and your girlfriend want to use the MB principles.

If you want to use the MB concepts, you need to seek Dr Harley's explanation of them. Have you read the article describing the importance of
Historical Honesty? In that, Dr Harley writes: "By expressing past mistakes openly, your spouse can understand your weaknesses, and together you can avoid conditions that tend to create problems for you.

No area of your life should be kept secret. All questions asked by your spouse should be answered fully and completely with periods of poor adjustment in your past given special attention."

And also: "By expressing past mistakes openly, your spouse can understand your weaknesses, and together you can avoid conditions that tend to create problems for you.

No area of your life should be kept secret."

It's not that you should "continue to revisit" the same unpleasant issue again and again; it's that your whole past should be known by your spouse (or spouse-to-be). If you take the view that informing your spouse about unpleasant issues from your past runs the risk of souring the present, you are asking your spouse to fall and remain in love with someone she doesn't really know, and this will be a barrier to emotional intimacy:

"Honesty does not drive a spouse insane -- dishonesty does. People in general, and women in particular, want to know exactly what their spouses are thinking and feeling. When you hold something back, your spouse tries to guess what it is. If he or she is right, then you must continually lie to cover your tracks. If he or she is wrong, an incorrect understanding of you and your predispositions develops.

Maybe you don't really want to be known for who you are? That's the saddest position of all. You'd rather keep your secret than experience one of life's greatest joys -- to be loved and accepted in spite of your weaknesses."

Have you completed the Personal History Questionnaire? This gives you a good outline of the parameters that need to be covered, and the depth of information required. You might find that completing it steers you away from having emotionally charged, unpleasant discussions.

On another thread, you expressed the opinion that it's fine for married couple to spend nights apart; words to the effect that if the relationship can't survive these separations, it was never much of a marriage in the first place.

This makes me wonder what you mean when you say that "We are both aware of and have followed the MB principles in putting this relationship together". Do you intend to give up spending nights apart, or do you intend to continue that practice? Do you know how strongly Dr Harley advises against spending nights apart, and why?

Thank you SugarCane! I appreciate the welcome back. I also appreciate your sharing.

I'm quite familiar with and in agreement with Dr H's policies and teachings. The RH policy is certainly valid, and we've been quite thorough in sharing our pasts, being honest & transparent.

The question revolves around when does revisiting the past become a liability vs an assistance? It's not totally about causing someone to fall in love with an unknown version of yourself, because none of us can recall everything fully, none of us actually totally know ourselves even! Yes, Dr. H says "as much as you know", but my question is around when both parties jointly agree, they don't want to dig in the graveyard of the past failures any longer, isn't that an acceptable point to stop dredging and trying to remember the details and pain of the past?

At some point, everyone needs to decide that we refuse to let our past failures have control over our future well-being and better version of ourselves. EVERY marriage is a risk at some level or another. Even if every tiny minutia of painful detail from the past was dredged up and fully documented, there's no guarantee with it that you totally know the person and can be assured they won't change & become someone you don't want to be married to. Sure past behavior CAN be a predictor of future, but not always, and not necessarily.

In my view, at some point, every married partner has to simply be willing to forgive and let go of the past, and put all efforts into their present & future. That's a calculated risk no matter how it's sliced.

Is it really "spending nights apart" when you are in touch with one another in prayer & conversation both going to sleep, and when waking up? What if you do as we have and frequently leave our phones plugged in and on all night long when we are apart - enabling a sleepy mutual exchange of "I love you Honey" even at 2 AM? How is that apart?

My point is that this man-made rule is not achievable, nor realistic for millions of humans. I also see that in reality MANY very happy married folks are able to travel apart very frequently and even for very long durations being apart, yet still be close and faithful. Physical distance traveling does NOT de facto destroy relationships. Being unfaithful in heart & mind does!

Absence can in reality make the heart grow fonder...it does NOT have to make the heart prone to wander!

It's everybody's right to hold any view they want, for whatever reason. I just don't understand why you're saying you are following the MB principles when clearly you're not, and you don't agree with them. You voluntarily came here today and posted on two threads (this one and one other), essentially arguing that your point of view is fine, and you disagree with the advice Dr Harley gives - at least on those subjects.

I don't get it.

Actually this is not true. Divorce and infidelity is epidemic in marriages where the couples are apart over night. Physical distance does destroy relationships because you can't sustain romantic love unless you are together, meeting each others needs every day.

If you know some couples who in such a position and are still in LOVE, please have them contact Dr. Harley so he can study their marriages to see what they are doing. He has been asking for YEARS for such couples to present and has not had one taker!! Please ask them to email Dr Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com so he can interview them.

I realize you want to believe that "absence makes the heart grow fonder" but in reality it does not.

ML, Actually, reality is that there are millions of faithful and true happily and in love married couples who by necessity of career and life commitments (such as to take care of aged parents) are required to spend many, many nights apart. Their romantic love has indeed endured decades in many cases.

Here is but a small but potent sample from my own 60 years of observing very happily married and faithful couples with careers constantly requiring nights apart and their initials to protect their privacy along with proximate married years:

Police - DB/MB 15 yrs, MR/GR 20 yrs
Medical - DT/KT 31 yrs, NN/RN 34 yrs, BT/TT 21 yrs
CEO - BR/AR 44 yrs
CFO - AG/CG, 36 yrs
Pro Pilots - TR/DR 41 yrs, JT/MT 34 yrs, JG/TG 22 yrs, EN/SN 48 yrs, JR/MR 17 yrs, TB/JB 19 yrs, GM/VM 12 yrs, I could go on for hundreds of couples
EMT - CC/BC 16 yrs
Bus Admin - KW/HW 61 yrs, SB/DB 54 yrs

I could add to this list for hundreds of thousands of names. At the same time, I could provide a list of folks who do NOT have to be apart at nights, and their marriages have ended in unfaithfulness and divorce and failed romance.

My entire point is simple: No question being apart at nights is a challenge. If your position was that extra care and precaution must be taken IF couples are going to be forced by career or life circumstances to be apart, then I can easily buy that and learn all techniques to ward off danger.

But to summarily conclude that nights apart = inevitable divorce from romantic love being destroyed is an easily proven and observable false conclusion!

PS: I emailed Dr. Harley directly with this information and observation.

But that was not my claim. I did not say "inevitable divorce," I said divorce is epidemic. You are twisting my words. I said this, which is true:

That's great! He will want their names and contact information so he can study them to validate your claims.
Just being together does not support your claim, though. Couples in such marriages fall out of love, which has led to an epidemic of divorce in such marriages. He will test them to see if they are actually in love, as you claim.

High Flight,

To support what MelodyLane has posted, I wanted to point out the differences between the two types of love in marriage: romantic love and caring love

Romantic love is a feeling, triggered once the romantic love threshold is exceeded in the love bank. Dr. Harley has written and declared on his radio show many times that he's never seen a couple get divorced who were "in love" (romantic love).

Caring love is a decision, a willingness to take the time and effort to make your spouse happy, and is the commitment made in one's wedding vows. But it is not the same as romantic love, and without romantic love, many couples with caring love for each other end up divorced. (again, per Dr. Harley's experience counseling couples).

The feeling of romantic love rises and falls during marriage, depending on how successful a couple can keep the four promises that Dr. Harley recommends: care, protection, honesty, and time. Couples who are often apart do not have adequate time (undivided attention) to meet the emotional needs (care) that trigger and sustain the feeling of romantic love for each other. So while their commitment and devotion to their marriages may keep them married for many years, they may not be "in love", and as such their marriage is at a higher risk for divorce. Couples who spend a lot of time apart develop independent lifestyles, and there is a higher risk for affairs, despite one's moral convictions. But even absent an affair, a couple with independent lifestyles and without romantic love for each other, often develop resentments that destroy the marriage.

Have you read Dr. Harley's three states of mind in marriage? A couple with romantic love for each other are in the State of Intimacy, and their marriage is not at risk for divorce. Marriages of couples without romantic love for each other are often in the State of Conflict or the State of Withdrawal. These two states, especially the latter, have a much higher risk for divorce.

"Inevitable" implies that an action will result in an unavoidable result. Obviously, that is not the case here. However, spending a lot of time apart greatly increases the chance for a couple to lose their romantic love for each other, which puts their marriage at much higher risk for divorce. Dr. Harley has observed that people in careers that require a lot of time apart (the military, air line pilots, etc.) have exceptionally high affair and divorce rates. Given Dr. Harley's decades of experience and observation, I will choose to take his word for it.

Why put the most important relationship of one's life, marriage, at such high risk?

Please let us know how he replies. I'd be interested to know how he weights your observations against his own. Will he change his published advice, I wonder.

*EDIT**

Moderator's note: the purpose of this forum is to help others with Dr. Harley's concepts. It is not a platform for your personal philosophies. If you do not agree with those principles, feel free to write Dr. Harley at his radio show and discuss your objections but don't do it here. Thank you.

I absolutely will. I sent it to his published email address 2 days ago.

God bless.
HF

**EDIT**

A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help others with Dr. Harley's concepts and principles. It is not a platform for personal philosophies as outlined in our Terms of Service. If you have an issue with Dr. Harley's advice, feel free to approach him on his radio show. But don't start debates on this forum. This thread will be locked if it continues.

Did you hear back from Dr. Harley?

Is this your question Radio Clip of High Flight�s question
Segment 2
Segment 3