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My husband and I have been together for 19 years, 11 of them married and no kids. We recently have been going to marriage counseling for a mirad of issues ranging from angry outbursts (I have these and am trying to work through them) to his feelings of rejection (by me but mostly dealing with his past and him projecting it onto me) to my need of him being more open to sharing feelings, etc. So we decided to take the love languages quiz to find out what really is the best way to give and receive love to/from the other person. We were a match for our top love language, Acts of Service.

My husband recently went on a short 3 day out of town work trip and I wanted to do something nice for him. I was going to mow the grass for him (my first time ever mowing the grass) but it was cold and rainy. So I decided to clean the basement instead. The basement is mostly his domain but I do go down there and we watch moves and occasionally play games together. So the basement is an entertainment area for us both but it also houses his desk and computer area as well. H has alot of expensive electronic toys down there and I am always very cautious when I touch his things (some of the stuff I am not even sure what it is). When we have guests over this area is also used for entertainment. Since Acts of Service is his #1 Love language I thought this would have been a perfect way to show that I care.

It took me over 4 hours just to clean half of the basement. It was FILTHY. His desk was almost unrecognizable as a black desk. Dust bunnies and poptart crumbs were underneath piles of all sorts of papers, etc. I was very cautious as to what and how things were moved and decided to move items that needed another home to a box where they were put in with the utmost care. All tiny items, screws, jump drives, etc were put into a zip-loc baggy as to not get lost in the big box. After the cleaning, the room looked awesome!! Something that I would be proud to spend time relaxing in and entertaining guests in.

Fast forward to when hubby gets back from work trip and he was not at ALL happy that I had cleaned. He asked ‘what’s up with the basement?’ I said I cleaned it. I wanted to mow the lawn for you but it was raining so I cleaned the basement instead. He said well i appreciate what you were trying to do, but next time tell me about it. There are some things that you need to hold a certain way. I said, like those drives? (he has some computer drives or something) I held them very carefully. I was trying to do something nice for you. He said I know. Then went on talking about his trip and said he took pictures. Instead of offering to show them to me, I pretty much had to pry it out of him. He said, I didn’t think you wanted to see them now.....really?!?!? I was literally sitting there talking to him about the trip. Of course I wanted to see pictures! He then showed me and we shared a bonding moment talking more about the trip etc. I then made myself dinner as he wasn’t hungry. He then spent the rest of the evening chatting with people on his arcade game forum. So much for missing each other and wanting to spend some time together.

Now he wont even talk or acknowledge my existence in the house. He is pouting and just plain being ungrateful. He acts like this every time he is upset. I did ask him what was wrong and he said he didn't want to talk about it. So I am not asking him about it until he comes to talk to me about it. I have been burned in the past with him for not being patient and giving him time to process things. I am VERY VERY tired of having to deal with these crazy moods. I want to be able to have an adult conversation about feelings and be able to express my love to him without him getting upset.

I do have to say that in the past, I have had to do some investigative work on his computer and did find a VAST array of porn, along with a VR sex video game etc. This has been addressed but I wouldn't put it past him if there was more of this going on and he is trying to hide it. While I was cleaning, his old work book bag was unzipped and the contents accidentally spilled out. Inside were 3 different brands of Viagra type products. My husband has known ED and we have talked about this. I am puzzled as to why they were in his work bag but maybe he thought that was a good hiding spot? There were a few pills used but that doesn't mean he didn't use them for his use while being with me. I just thought it was curious. This cleaning session there was no snooping just cleaning with the accidental finding of the ED pills. I am not sure on how to proceed. I am at my wits end with his behavior. Any ideas and insite would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

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bubbles, I've just read every thread that you created since you came here, and they make sad reading. You have been trying to have a loving, fulfilling marriage for 11 years, and for most of that time your husband has been uninterested in doing the same.

In 2012, the poster markos wrote to you:

Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by hellobubbles
I also have to adjust what I have been come to know as the norm for the past 5 years as well.


hellobubbles, you should not try to make yourself adjust to sadness and neglect. frown

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This behavior has been going on for years and I would like it to stop.


I think you need to complain persistently, clearly, respectfully, and most importantly NOW before this crisis gets any worse and threatens your marriage.

It is crucially important to get your husband on board with this program so that he can meet your needs. You should not be asked to do without for years just so that he can play videogames. That is not what marriage is about.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html

This has nothing to do with finding the correct "love language" - a cheap and distorted version of Dr Harley's basic concepts, by the way, that you should ditch. This is not a situation where you haven't quite found the right behaviour that makes him fall in love with you, and where, if you try harder, he will fall in love. This is about the fact that, fundamentally, your husband does not seem to want to be married to you.

His secrecy and independent behaviour have been horrendous. He has been addicted to video games, and has spent large amounts of money on them. He has kept "his money" separate from "your money". You know he has been addicted to pornography and you should have no confidence that his usage ever stopped. You now see evidence of Viagra use, and it does not seem to be related to his sex life with you. We asked you before to investigate whether he was having an affair, and you found no evidence - but that was when you knew about the pornography, and you could reasonably conclude that the pornography was the reason for your non-existent sex life. Well, it is unlikely that he uses Viagra to masturbate to pornography. He's having an affair. Given his behaviour over most of your marriage, he might well have been having an affair the whole time

I recommend putting all your resources into uncovering this affair. The best way to do this, with a computer-savvy husband who feels justified in locking you out of his computer, would be to hire a private investigator. He or she could find evidence of an affair within a few days. However, you should, at the same time, make plans to separate from your husband. With or without an affair, there are no signs that your husband would ever work on having a proper marriage with you.

You've been alone in this marriage almost since it started. You shouldn't put any more effort into trying to drag this up into recovery. You will wreck your mental health if you do not get out now.


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I think maybe I didn't explain the finding of the Viagra situation very clearly. I know that he had been experimenting with different pills for awhile to see what worked for him the best. I knew he had them, just maybe not the array of varieties he was trying. I was just wondering why they were in his work bag and not in his bathroom or bedside table is all. Maybe he was embarrassed by the amount of different kinds he has tried?

I have flat out asked him if he was having an affair (the councelor we had been seeing asked him as well) and of course he denies it. I have been cheated on in past relationships and alot of his actions points to him having one. One thing I do need to point out is that my husband is VERY much an introvert (I think I may have called him an extrovert in a previous post, this is not correct). He really does not go out of his way to talk to people and when we first met, I was only his second girlfriend, hadn't been kissed or had a sexual experience with a woman. All of his sexual experiences have been with me or porn. When we talked about his porn usage in counceling, he said that at first it was for education purposes but then became easier for him to get satisfied through porn. I am not making any excuses for him, but I do have a bit of sexual baggage myself.

My first sexual experience was all but forced on me when I was VERY young, 14yo. In that relationship I was emotionally, mentally, physically and sexually abused. I endured that for 6 years of my formative years. Does it piss me off that I let that man do those things to me? Heck yes it does! My H knows about these experiences. In fact, I told him details twice although, he will tell you it was only once. Dunno where his head was at the first time I shared it. He is now using that knowledge of my past as not really an excuse but a concern?? I dunno it's sounds kinda manipulative to me when I want to be sexual and then he gets mad when I only like it a 'certain way' but in the same breath will say, I don't want to force you to do something you are not comfortable with. I also have severe endometriosis, PCOS, adenomyosis, and uterine cysts and fibroids that can maker certain positions sometimes painful for me. Again, he says he understands but then gets upset that things are getting stale in the bedroom and turns back to porn. Like he is blaming me for something that happened to me or that is wrong with my body and I can't fix and then punishing me by using porn.

I agree that it doesn't seem to want to be married to me any longer. Each day he can go from saying I love you to not talking to me or sleeping in our bed. Both of us have been on hormone treatment for a little more than 6 months now. He was also going to the doctor for his ED issues. I am wondering if these moods have more to deal with his hormones than anything. His moods were like this before the hormone treatments as well but seem to have gotten worse as of late.

Originally Posted by SugarCane

His secrecy and independent behaviour have been horrendous. He has been addicted to video games, and has spent large amounts of money on them. He has kept "his money" separate from "your money". You know he has been addicted to pornography and you should have no confidence that his usage ever stopped.



I know the porn use has not stopped it just might be in a different form, he recently has been reading Hentai (which are japanese porn comic books). He never asked me how I felt about them and continues to read and buy them. He even stores them out in the open in his basement area and I am afraid that one of our guests or young family members might decide to crack one open. I agree with you SugarCane that this secrecy and IB have been ridiculous. At this point I want to separate and have emailed the MB coaching center about getting us some help.

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Originally Posted by hellobubbles
I
I have flat out asked him if he was having an affair (the councelor we had been seeing asked him as well) and of course he denies it.


This is the wrong approach. Of course he would say he was not having an affair if asked. He is trying to hide it. Don't ask him anymore. You need to snoop on him and find out what i going on.

Quote
. One thing I do need to point out is that my husband is VERY much an introvert (I think I may have called him an extrovert in a previous post, this is not correct). He really does not go out of his way to talk to people and when we first met,


Lots of introverts have affairs. This means nothing. Many of them are very comfortable seeking affairs on the internet that are consummated in person.

The fact that you have been here for 8 years with the same problems tells me the biggest issue is your conflict avoidance and denial. There are many red flags here that you are ignoring. I agree very much that you should separate!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Read Beware of Bad Counselorsand listen to the radio clips


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Why didn’t you go with him on his out of town trip?


FWW/BW (me)
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Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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As far as affairs go, maybe he is an introvert and not a ladies man. That does not preclude him from having one night stands or engaging with prostitutes. There are many people heavily involved in porn who look for these real life quick encounters. If he has no transparency, his own unaccounted for money, and goes on work trips, engaging in this behavior would be super easy for him.

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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Why didn’t you go with him on his out of town trip?



It was a work trip and I was not invited as I also work.


Last edited by hellobubbles; 05/04/19 04:08 PM.
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Are you going to hire a PI?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Are you going to hire a PI?



No, as I do not believe he is having an affair. I do not like that that is always everyones first response. I may be in denial but I just don't see it. Like I said before, I know he uses the Viagra with me and it is openly discussed.

My husband and I talked through a TON of new and old issues, resentments, fears, and relationship expectations literally ALL day on Saturday. While I do still think we have a ton to work on, I have been in contact with the MB coaching center. I will chat with my husband about starting coaching sessions with Dr. Harvey and see how things progress from there. One day of talking is not going to solve nearly 20 years of issues but it's a start. Thank you for your feedback.

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Originally Posted by hellobubbles
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Are you going to hire a PI?



No, as I do not believe he is having an affair. I do not like that that is always everyones first response.


Just know that it is not a "first response" unless there are obvious red flags. Its' like taking your car to a master mechanic who listens to engines all day for years. They become experts at seeing the signs.

Quote
I may be in denial but I just don't see it..


Right, because you are not looking and you don't want to see it. That is understandable, but doesn't help your situation move forward.

I just want to point out that you are the least objective person on this thread. I understand you don't want to believe it, but you need to rule it out before we can help you. It is very likely he is having an affair. Sorry.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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In addition to what MelodyLane said.

Why don’t you snoop and prove us all wrong that he isn’t having an affair?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I would say that he spends too much time in the basement probably pleasuring himself looking at porn and that he is addicted to it.

This leaves him unable to have a normal sexual relationship with you. The ED is because the standard sex doesn’t give him a boost like before.

I would also say he sounds like a big child brooding when he is angry, your anger is born out of the lack of normal intimacy.

As for cleaning his basement area you stepped into his perverted lair and he was upset. I think the viagra is used to make him masterbate for longer. I believe it was in his work bag so you wouldn’t find it and he may have gotten it from a work colleague..

You have to get him to remove this filth and go to a counsellor to get intimate again.

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Still have found no evidence of an affair. I do not have money for a PI but have decided to separate from H after him being unwilling to not engage in Love Busters (Independent Behavior). I tried meeting all of his emotional needs to no avail and no change. So a separation is what is going to happen. Should I use the Plan B letter as a template for telling him about the separation and just insert independent behavior where it mentions an affair? I tried looking all over the MB website and couldn't find anything about how to step by step, separate from your spouse. Can someone point me in the right direction?

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hellobubbles, please read through this and come back and we can help you with next steps: WHEN TO CALL IT QUITS (PART 1)


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thank you for the article. We have already completed the EN Questionnare 3 times in the past and have also read His Needs Her needs together. It was a years ago that we did this, is this something that should be tried again? For the past few months, I have done my best to not engage in LB and meet his EN to the best of my ability. We talked about doing our best and trying to meet each others EN and not engaging in LB with varying results.

We are currently in a state of turmoil. I had been working VERY long hours. This is usually not my normal working hours and he seemed very supportive and understanding at the time. After the work craziness had finally died down, He asked me what I was doing that day and I told him, that I would love to hang out with him. We decided to have a movie night in. I tried to cuddle with him, but he was unreceptive. As soon as the movie was over, in his eyes, the box of spending time with me was checked, he had done what I asked him to do and now he could do what he wanted. He got on his laptop in front of the TV that I was watching and engaged in independent behavior. While I did not address it at the time of him doing it, I did tell him I did this because I needed time to cool off as it would have been expressed in an angry outburst from me. So I left it alone for a few days so that I would be able to talk to him calmly about it. Probably not the best thing for me to do but it was either wait and be somewhat calm or blow up with an angry outburst. But I think all I did was let it simmer more. I told him that I no longer felt as if I as a priority in his life because of his independent behavior and his lack of wanting to spend time with me. Which ended in him telling me that nothing has changed on my end and I said that I feel like I have changed but if I am doing something or not doing something to please give me some feedback so that I am not assuming how he feels about something. He had asked me to try different things sexually and I feel like I was doing that. I also expressed that a certain sexual experience that I initiated (another thing he asked em to do more often) took me out of my comfort zone a bit and was met with my husband mocking the situation and how I felt. Oh it was SUCH a big deal that you did this, because it was SO different than any other time, he mocked. Why did you feel like it was SO much out of your comfort zone?, he mockingly asked. I said because in the past the abusive boyfriend MADE me do those things, I didn't have a choice. He then said, oh and that's MY fault, you need to stop putting yourself up on a pedestal and get over it. At that point I was hurt, so I said, the only reason you would say something like that is to hurt me, it is not at all being constructive. I told him i couldn't talk to him and ended up sleeping on the couch that night. We have not talked since. I am still at home but have been making arrangements to live with my parents for awhile until I can afford an apartment on my own. I also told him that because of his independent behavior that I was starting to resent him and that I didn't want to feel that way about him. I told him that not to hurt him but to let him know how I was starting to feel towards him. The mocking earlier in the conversation was just too much for me to handle and the resentment isn't just starting but it is now there.

I am a christian woman, and while I do not believe in affairs or divorce, the thought has unfortunately crossed my mind.

I do not feel as if I can give him ANY sort of complaint or feedback or tell him how I am feeling without some sort of repercussion. He said he feels like a failure and cannot take rejection. I do not feel as if I am rejecting my H but when I give him ANY sort of feedback (positive or negative) he feels this way. I feel like I am stuck. Damned if I do and Damned if I don't.

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It sounds like you have done everything you could possibly do, so I would plan to move out. Once you get moved out, I would give him a Plan A letter describing what you need to make you happy. I would include on that list the following things:

1. no more porn - must be verifiable
2. no more nights apart
3. 4-5 dates nights out of the house [sitting home watching TV does not count]
4. meeting each others needs in a way that makes you BOTH HAPPY [no more sex acts that take you out of your comfort zone - the sexual experience needs to be enjoyable for you BOTH - no more one sided experimentation]
5. elimination of lovebusters

Be very clear about what it will take to make you happy. I would lay out what you need to be happy and give him a chance to do those things for at least a year. If he can do it successfully for that long, you can move back in. I also think you really need to educate yourself about what habits will create a happy marriage. You have time to do this. Pick up His Needs, Her Needs. Some things you mentioned that cause concern is a) spending UA time at home watching TV does not work. Watching TV is not UA time because you are focused on TV. Your UA time needs to be out on DATES. b) your sexual experience should be an act of love, not experimenting with uncomfortable acts - he has sex this way because his mind has been ruined with porn. Sex to him is just 2 animals getting off rather than making love. I doubt you feel LOVED at all after having sex with him.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Actually, I would not include the dates or no more nights apart in your letter at this time. For now, just mention the other items. If he does those things, you can gradually start dating again.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by hellobubbles


I do not feel as if I can give him ANY sort of complaint or feedback or tell him how I am feeling without some sort of repercussion. He said he feels like a failure and cannot take rejection. I do not feel as if I am rejecting my H but when I give him ANY sort of feedback (positive or negative) he feels this way. I feel like I am stuck. Damned if I do and Damned if I don't.


A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage. It is like getting a NSF notice from your bank. It might not be pleasant but the alternative is much worse. I think he doesn't want to hear it because he doesn't care about your happiness. That has been his pattern.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thank you MelodyLane. I am in the process of leaving and will draft him a letter with the points you mentioned. Thank you so much for your help! Is there somewhat of a template for the separation letter that can be followed as a rough outline?? I saw the PlanB letter for affairs, but am not sure if this is something to follow or not.

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